Bruce Lee : The Quickest!!!

[Cthulhu]

Originally posted by Kirk

I heard that a faster film, PLUS having Jet Li slow down in his
M.A. scenes were necessary to even seeing Jet Li move.
I saw the director of Lethal Weapon 4 saying that some shots
in his action scenes were cut out, because he was so fast, you
didn't see him move (on film). Of course that could've been a
publicity stunt.

The same was said of Bruce Lee, particularly in the filming of the Green Hornet episodes. I've read a few accounts where they said they eventually had to speed up the cameras for Lee since at normal speed, he'd walk up to a person, there'd be a blur or nothing at all, and that person would fall or fly. By recording at a higher speed and then slowing the camera playback down to normal speeds, the camera was able to capture the motion and then play it back so we could actually see what Lee was doing. Basically, speeding a camera up during recording slows the action down when it's played back at normal speeds.

In contrast, you could look at a Van Dumme movie where either the camera has been slowed down and/or the playback is sped up to make him look faster than he really is.

For some martial arts movie geek fun, get the Enter the Dragon DVD and watch Lee's fight scene with Bob Wall (Ohara)...particularly the beginning techniques from the reference point. Watch that sequence frame-by-frame and see how many moves Lee really does. A good example of trapping hands, by the way.

Cthulhu

 

[sweeper]

you can get some pritty high speed film, so I doubt jet li had to slow down, it was probably more an issue of how the director wanted the fight to look.

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Kirk

I heard that a faster film, PLUS having Jet Li slow down in his
M.A. scenes were necessary to even seeing Jet Li move.

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar was saying simialr things about himself and Bruce Lee in the documentary on Game of Death on AMC last night. The footage they showed, claiming it was done at normal speed, certainly looked choppy--Bruce Lee's movements looked jerky, I presume because of this effect.

 

[Magua]

bruce lee was and always will be the best..i think 2 people who could equal his speed..and only his speed..would be donnie yuen and jet li

 

[KennethKu]

I believe some one mentioned that Bruce Lee's speed was due to his small size, and the same was said about Jet Li. If that was true, the one we should all look out for would be Mini-ME LOL

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by migo

I think Jet Li is incredibly fast, and since he's smaller than Bruce, he most likely is faster as well. Also of interesting note, Ali could punch faster than Bruce. Ali clocked in at 1/20th of a second, Bruce clocked at 1/8th of a second.

Ali is by far fast, but Ali came after Bruce. And Bruce was told to slow down because the cameras couldn't pick it up. Nowadays, even the crappiest of TV's run on a 60Hz cycle.

Jet Li is not faster than Lee. Simple as that.

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by migo



Sure it does. Small people have a lot easier time with speed than big people.

You are partly right. In terms of physics, you are about 20% right. Agility has much more to do with size, and agility is closely related to speed but not the same.

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by sweeper

well when someone uses the term "power" they are usualy refering to the amount of force someone can generate in a punch, force = mass x acceleration, so if someone's bigger they have more mass, but if you aren't going to increase your mass the only way to get more power is to add speed. But also the physics of a punch are kinda odd because you are trying to shift your body weight into the person through your arm, you obviously can't do this 100% so biomechanics play a big role, so technique adds power too.. Also some people who hit fast don't put their body behind it, it's not that speed inhibits your ability to to put your body into a strike just for some reason alot of people don't.

What I meant in my last post was if a larger person trains mainly for speed (as aposed to mass and strength) they can become realy fast, as fast as a lighter weight fighter most likely.

Force does equal mass x acceleration
But power equals force x speed

Also, there are many more factors. First of all, maximum force is not really from mass, or then bodybuilders would have tons of power but in reality, fall short to say, powerlifters who go for strength rather than mass. But strength does not equal power either. Strength is just one small component of power. Mass is another small component in a way but in physics, less important than strength which isn't really important anyway if you take in account of striking power in humans. A semi hits harder than a Corvette going at 50mph, but a Corvette can go much faster, is more agile and handles better, and a semi would have a hard time hitting a Corvette in chicken situations (if you outmanuever it).

More important factors of power for striking (in relation to human anatomy) is technique, using your hips, legs, everything in one swift motion.

 

[KennethKu]

Actually, by twisting you hip and using footwork, you are increasing the mass (ie using your whole body mass vs just the arm along) that drives your fist to the target.

 

[sweeper]

But power equals force x speed? Haven't heard that before..

factors that play into the power of a punch? total force (momentum pluss follow through strength) that means both mass and speed as well as strength play into it, however technique is your ability to optimise your maximum potential, you can hit with 1/10th of your strength and unless you have ten times the potential of a guy hitting with 100% you aren't gona have anymore power.

 

[sammy3170]

Bruce Lee was quick don't get me wrong but he also had a lot of percieved speed. He didn't telegraph his techniques very much so there was a lot less distance to travel as well as there being a lot fewer signals (to pick up) that he was throwing a technique. He was also able to read other peoples signs amazingly well giving him the ability to seem faster than he was.

Just Some Thoughts
Cheers
Sammy

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by sweeper

But power equals force x speed? Haven't heard that before..

factors that play into the power of a punch? total force (momentum pluss follow through strength) that means both mass and speed as well as strength play into it, however technique is your ability to optimise your maximum potential, you can hit with 1/10th of your strength and unless you have ten times the potential of a guy hitting with 100% you aren't gona have anymore power.

Strength isn't the way for instance about how much weight you can put up, but the force behind it. Of course, one might see them very closely related but in reality, the strongest man in the world (for some exercises) may hit weaker than someone like Lee.

One common mistake is that strength determines power. They look at Ali who never took anyone down with his jab vs. someone like Foreman who did knock people down with his jab. However, Ali's technique which can determine how much force isn't behind it wasn't really set for power but for speed. To get more power, you HAVE TO HIT FAST, but it takes more time to set up the mechanics. For instance, a jab is faster but less powerful than a straight.

But if you can't hit 'fast', you won't hit very hard. Fast as in explosive movement.

Oh yeah, Jet Li is nowhere near as fast as Lee.

 

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by MartialArtist


Ali is by far fast, but Ali came after Bruce. And Bruce was told to slow down because the cameras couldn't pick it up. Nowadays, even the crappiest of TV's run on a 60Hz cycle.

Jet Li is not faster than Lee. Simple as that.

These days, you would be wrong! Jet Li is faster, mainly coz he's still moving, and Bruce is worm food...

 

[bob919]

for head strikes weight and strength mean next to nothing but for body shots they mean so much more than speed, its alot more complicated than 'power = speed x mass' because the body moves in different ways for example:
a super fast punch(like alis jab) with very little weight or strength behind is not gonna hurt much at all if aimed at softer parts such as the stomach but against the head it will hurt like hell, similarly

a weighty punch with lots of strength behind it will seem like a push if delivered to the head but it will hurt alot more if delivered tto the stomach.

have you ever been hit my someone who only punches air (alot of TKD pratitioners for example) in the face it hurts but in the body its like gnats no pain atall because there is no followthrough, followthrough comes from weight and strength both of which are absent in this example

 

[bob919]

it is impossible to compare speed between jet li and bruce lee but today (2003) i am guessing jet li is faster cause bruce is dead

 

[white belt]

Bruce IS NOT DEAD! He is just trying to be difficult! It's all part of expressing his "own personal JKD". People everywhere are just dying to try it!

The punches to the body, at my Do Jang, are like gnats, gnats riding bricks! As far as power goes, take an object the size of your arm, from elbow to knuckles, that has similar mass density as bone (2x4 comes to mind for my hand / arm) put a hand guard on it and have a partner toss it at MEDIUM speed, end first, into your Liver 13 point, Spleen 16 point or Solar Plexus. I have ENDED a few matches, while wearing hand guards and pulling my punches, "tapping" those three areas. My partners doubled over for a few minutes. These guys were all bigger and are not soft by any means. Yes, I know you were not sayinng ALL TKD. Accuracy is PRIME. Good bare knuckle fighters, before gloves, punched mostly to the body because of the "NODDER" tactic. A "nodder" was leaning the head forward so the punch was taken on the top of the head, many times breaking the punchers hand!

Bruce was very fast, but he relied on POSITION above all else.

white belt

 

[bob919]

i used tkd as an example of a martial art that does mainly air punching i could have used many others i am not putting down TKD as a martial art just the way alot of people trainand not just in TKD but in many other martial arts its just TKD is most popualar therefore the people who want to learn a martial art but arent very passionate abput it ofen chose this martial art.
Throwing a 2x4 at medium speed would not hurt unless it was very long or a corner hit you, although i suppose people have different pain tolerances

 

[bob919]

I'm orange woo hay

 

[white belt]

Originally posted by bob919
i used tkd as an example of a martial art that does mainly air punching i could have used many others i am not putting down TKD as a martial art just the way alot of people trainand not just in TKD but in many other martial arts its just TKD is most popualar therefore the people who want to learn a martial art but arent very passionate abput it ofen chose this martial art.
Throwing a 2x4 at medium speed would not hurt unless it was very long or a corner hit you, although i suppose people have different pain tolerances

Sorry about that TKD business BOB919! I'm a little tense from Ma Huang. The 2x4 would have an end wittled down to the size of two knuckles.

I can't recall, did Bruce condition his knuckles?

white belt

 

[Samurai]

I can't recall, did Bruce condition his knuckles?

YES - Look at the cover of the BRUCE LEE FIGHTING METHOD books. They show a Bruce Lee with large knuckles from pounding on things and people

Thanks
Jeremy Bays