Bruce Lee and Martial Arts.

[sweeper]

ok so it wasn't realy bjj than.

 

[Infight]

Of course it was (unfortunatly), the scum guy was submited by a triangle choke.

 

[sweeper]

maybe I'll have to watch it again, I just don't remember the ending much.

 

[Seibukan Jake]

I am always fascinated by Bruce Lee and people's perception of him as the greatest martial artist of all time. Did he have skill? Yes. Did he influence many people in the arts? Yes. Was he the greatest martial artist of all time ? No!

What you see on the movie screen is the movies. not reality. I am very much acquainted with the east coast Uechi Sensei and I have also seen photos of Lee in the late 60's after his Green Hornet series. He was often working with other arts to gather ideas and Uechi was one of them as it is a southern chinese art that is associated with close in combat and efficient movement. The Uechi seniors he spared with were not trying to embarrass Lee, the photos where simply a documentation for study. The Uechi Sensei keep out of politics and the arguments on this forum are proof as to their judgements. Lee had real difficulty in angular attacks and found himself on his butt more than once when he kicked high. As for his fist striking, his hands were caught and he was trapped and arm locked often during these photo shoots.

You can also tell by looking at his techniques both then and now, that he had very little comprehension of Kyusho as his foot placement is absolutely incorrect and significantly negates the effectiveness of the strike.

There are only a handfull of martial artists that know the old ways and the true applications of their arts. I suggest we study with the living and not the dead.

Seibukan Jake

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

May be so, but Lee was a pioneer at a time when martial art was NOT taught to non-Chinese, and even NOT to Chinese who were out side of the particular clan. Lee brought new changes to the MA world and opened the door to new concepts and new ideas. Today, most of his concepts and ideas are adopted or independently discovered by others.

You are correct that there is no such thing as the greatest martial artist of all time. Such title is nothing more than a subjective opinion.

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
May be so, but Lee was a pioneer at a time when martial art was NOT taught to non-Chinese, and even NOT to Chinese who were out side of the particular clan. Lee brought new changes to the MA world and opened the door to new concepts and new ideas. Today, most of his concepts and ideas are adopted or independently discovered by others.

You are correct that there is no such thing as the greatest martial artist of all time. Such title is nothing more than a subjective opinion.

That is true. No one person can claim the title of the greatest, nor should it be given to them after their death.

Thats not the issue. The REAL issue is what he taught and how he taught. 30 years after his death, his concepts and philosiphies and techniques are still being taught.

Many people have made "(after death) claims" about beating certain people and "claim" to have "photos."

Without "proof" its just more talk, same as before.

Like I've stated, my Sigung new Bruce personally. So why would I believe something that can't be proved.

We have to understand here. Its the word of my Sigung or the word of a "keyboard commando".

Who am I going to believe?

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by Infight
Thx Lord! I hope never find BJJ in Hollywood, unfornatly that happened, in Lethal Weapon, but hope never more find anything related, cause i hope it lasts as a respectfull martial art for eternity, not as happened to Kung Fu, or anything related [ but there is a great difference, kung fu was never a respectfull ma ( in my humble opinion, its more a flex demonstration than ma)thats why it needed to go to movies ].

Kickboxer 4. One of the Machado brothers was in it and using BJJ.

 

[Infight]

Machado is a great fighter, im just sorry he got involved in a movie production with BJJ (if it was just for money, there is no problem!)

 

[jefroman]

Originally posted by Seibukan Jake
Lee had real difficulty in angular attacks and found himself on his butt more than once when he kicked high. As for his fist striking, his hands were caught and he was trapped and arm locked often during these photo shoots.

You can also tell by looking at his techniques both then and now, that he had very little comprehension of Kyusho as his foot placement is absolutely incorrect and significantly negates the effectiveness of the strike.

You cannot accurately judge Bruce Lee's fighting techniques by what happened at a photo shoot. In a real life self defense situation or in a real fight with a *Uechi Senior*, I highly doubt that he would have high kicked or made excessive use of his hands until he had exhausted all of his other options. Also, who is qualified to judge whether or not his foot placement was "absolutely incorrect"?
I apologize if I caused any hard feelings here, and this certainly wasn't intended to be a personal attack on Seibukan Jake.
I would also like to state that I don't consider myself to be one of those "self appointed experts" on Bruce Lee. This post is purely my opinion.

Jeff

 

[Kingston]

Bruce did alot for MA's in North america, and perhaps around the world. I think he is a little over rated. Whenever a famous person with lots of potential dies a sudden unexpected death, he/she is catapulted up to a much higher status. people raise them up to there potential when they die. Of course no one talks badly about the dead, expecialy if its someone they knew. The fact that he was in movies would help to bread these tall tales about bruce.

there is example of how chuck norris tought bruce about the effectiveness o highf kicking. this happened during a friendly sparring match where chuck kept tagging druce...

how did bruce come to the conclusion high kicks where not as effective? Most logical answer in my opinion is that bruce could not use them effectivly, so of course, if you cant use them effectivly why should you use them at all? Can some people use high kicks effectivly? sure. Personaly i agree with Bruce about high kicks.

was bruce a good martial artist? yes he was good.

did he revolutionize how people see martial arts? yes.

he was a good man, who had some good ideas, who passed them down to his students.

Because the fact that JKD would have most likely kept evolving if bruce had lived, I think Akja is absolutly right in saying you should study janfan gung fu (i think i go the right name) as a base before saying you study, or practice JKD.

If bruce lee wasn't famous for his movies would his art be so highly regarded? probably not.

JKD's not perfect, but there are still some things that we can take from it.

anyway thats just my two cents.

thanks

 

[Toasty]

what are you babbling about.
Your Ignorance of martial arts is glaringly obvious.
First let me address your so called photo evidence - where is it and how come NO ONE else has seen these supposed photos?

Come on man its the year 2003 - take a digital photo of the photo & digitize out the faces you dont want to be seen then post them. Barring that - stop saying you've seen these photos because without them all you are is some internet warrior wannbe airing his sour grapes.
I mean really dude, I could say I have photos of JFK, Lee harvey Oswald & J.Edgar Hoover at Sloppy Joes Bar in Key West so that proves the JFK assassination was a conspiracy, But unless I show them its all BULLS**T!

In your speaking of Mr. Lee's "very little comprehension of Kyusho" what does a Okinawan technique/footwork have to do with a completely different style of martial arts footwork? example - I could state that from my point of view (Muay Thai) its obvious that Uechi Ryu has absolutely no concept of how to generate power for a round kick. I am basing this on my limited knowledge of Uechi Ryu that I have seen in photos showing key techniques.

And the part that really gets me in your ignorant diatribe - Bruce Lee's arms & hands were trapped (TRAPPED?!) by an Okinawan stylist?!!! You dont really have any idea of what the Wing Chun system entails do ya?

anyway - believe what you want, but dont offer opinions and judgement based on the fantasies you have created to help you deal with things.

I wish you good luck
Rob

 

[James Kovacich]

I want to make a quick evaluation. Its been posted Bruce was "regular", "great", just a man.....etc.

At the time of Bruces death in 1973 I was a beginner, some of us were not training yet, some of us were not even born yet and others have been training since long before I was born.

Also at the time of Bruces death the martial arts in America was not that advanced, it basically was pretty much what was passed down from the traditional instructor although there are exceptions.

Along came a visionary who saw things in a differant light and walked his own path. "At that time" I doubt "VERY MUCH" that there were very many "great" martial artist like Bruce.

I did not say there were none. I'm saying the martial arts were not evolving at an excessive rate until after Bruce left us his legacy.

 

[Kenpodoc]

Originally posted by akja
I want to make a quick evaluation. Its been posted Bruce was "regular", "great", just a man.....etc.

At the time of Bruces death in 1973 I was a beginner, some of us were not training yet, some of us were not even born yet and others have been training since long before I was born.

Also at the time of Bruces death the martial arts in America was not that advanced, it basically was pretty much what was passed down from the traditional instructor although there are exceptions.

Along came a visionary who saw things in a differant light and walked his own path. "At that time" I doubt "VERY MUCH" that there were very many "great" martial artist like Bruce.

I did not say there were none. I'm saying the martial arts were not evolving at an excessive rate until after Bruce left us his legacy.

The were some very important exceptions without whom Mr. Lee likely would have remained unknown.

Certainly all of us who look to Edmund Parker for our inspiration feel that this is true. If you look at martial arts in the United States you can see that it's rapid expansion predates Bruce Lee. Judo, Karate, Korean Martial arts were already starting to grow prior to Bruce Lee's introduction to America. The Phillipino arts were growing by the late 60's independent of Mr. Lee's influence. Judo and Karate were already a part of the James bond Movies.

Mr. Parker introduced the young Bruce Lee to an America already hungry for new approaches to Martial Arts. Mr. Parker saw things in a different light and walked his own path long before Mr. Lee. But so did Joe Lewis, and many others in multiple other arts.

The one thing Mr. Lee clearly did was create an American market for asian martial arts Movies.

Mr Lee did not trigger the explosion in martial arts but certainly he appeared at the right time to gain notoriety and to help spread the word.

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by Kenpodoc
The were some very important exceptions without whom Mr. Lee likely would have remained unknown.

Certainly all of us who look to Edmund Parker for our inspiration feel that this is true. If you look at martial arts in the United States you can see that it's rapid expansion predates Bruce Lee. Judo, Karate, Korean Martial arts were already starting to grow prior to Bruce Lee's introduction to America. The Phillipino arts were growing by the late 60's independent of Mr. Lee's influence. Judo and Karate were already a part of the James bond Movies.

Mr. Parker introduced the young Bruce Lee to an America already hungry for new approaches to Martial Arts. Mr. Parker saw things in a different light and walked his own path long before Mr. Lee. But so did Joe Lewis, and many others in multiple other arts.

The one thing Mr. Lee clearly did was create an American market for asian martial arts Movies.

Mr Lee did not trigger the explosion in martial arts but certainly he appeared at the right time to gain notoriety and to help spread the word.

I'm not going to discount Ed Paker, thats why I sai there were exceptions. But the '60s martial arts were changing compared to the '40's and '50's but I don't feel that history shows the "evolution" that I was referring to. By that I mean accepting "change", like our martial ancestors did long ago and are doing again now.

There were many great martial artists of that time, but not many of them were pioneering "using what is useful", but they were mastering what they learned and building from that while staying within the original structure of what they were taught.

Kenpo has a lot of history and Ed did it good. I spent most of the '70's in Kajukenbo and Kaju is a brother to Kenpo. Kajukenbo has been evolving ever since its creation.

The '60's had an M.A. explosion, but the '70's explosion "in my opinion" had a bigger effect on the M.A. community.
My statement wasn't singling out Bruce as the best. It was headed in response to those who feel Bruce didn't do much because they base their opinions on movies.