Broken neck in BJJ Tournament (OUCH)
- Thread starter 1Ganger
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Was that intended or just a tragic screw up. What should the move had of been?
kuniggety
2nd Black Belt
You're not allowed to pick up your opponent and slam them. This is the reason why as the guy on bottom's body swung a bit when they guy on top did it to him and resulted in this. He should have done any of the myriad of guard passes available. It looks like the bottom guy was going for a triangle or something... Hard to tell with the video quality but the guys response was unexcusable.
Right okay. Was not sure, but the body slam looks plausible.
kuniggety
2nd Black Belt
I've watched it a few times, trying to pick out the details. I'm not sure if he intentionally flipped him over or was trying to stack him but made the mistake of pulling on him too much back and up that caused the flipping of the body. Stacking is a perfectly legit technique where you force a person's feet over their head. Depending on the flexibility of the person on the bottom it can be rather uncomfortable but some folks get pretty good at defending/playing from such a position. I have a really really good blue belt in my school that likes to play open guard and one of the techniques I use to try to pass his guard is stacking and at least half of the time he can should roller out of it into another good position. It was either the intentional flipping - to get him into a sprawled position or a poorly executed stacking that resulted in this.
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Maybe as much the ref's fault in this instance-he might have seen that coming, and stopped it. More to the point, though, rolling the guy over was not the thing to do after this took place-it might have exacerbated the injury to paralysis....
Tragic no matter what for the person injured. Very sad!
Steve
Mostly Harmless
Looking at it, it's kind of a freak accident thing. It didn't look like an intentional slam, nor did it look like anything different from things I've seen a thousand times, The video is hard to see, but it appears to be white belts. But I don't think it was against the rules or really anything "wrong" at all. Regarding suing him, that's just terrible.
To answer the original question, no,mint doesn't happen often at all. Serious injuries of any kind are rare, but certainly possible. I was just at a tournament yesterday with over 700 competitors at all skill levels, and the worst thing I recall were some sore elbows.
I hope the kid is okay.
To answer the original question, no,mint doesn't happen often at all. Serious injuries of any kind are rare, but certainly possible. I was just at a tournament yesterday with over 700 competitors at all skill levels, and the worst thing I recall were some sore elbows.
I hope the kid is okay.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
Alright. Still on an iPad, so don't know what autocorrect will do to me. But I was able to find some more information on this.
First, these guys were white belts, so take that for what it's worth. The kid whose neck broke was 15 years old, and the other guy was 19. At least, that's what I found. The 15 year old was competing in an adult division. Kids divisions have a lot of protections for the neck. Fewer for adults, particularly as you move up in belt level.
As I said above, the move wasn't malicious, and is not against the rules. I use it all the time, particularly against guys who like to work a flexible open guard. A video is below of how it's supposed to look.
This is tragic, but it's no ones fault, except maybe the coaches for allowing the kid to compete against adults too soon. Rushing to judgement and advocating lawsuits is just horrible, and would only make a sad situation worse.
First, these guys were white belts, so take that for what it's worth. The kid whose neck broke was 15 years old, and the other guy was 19. At least, that's what I found. The 15 year old was competing in an adult division. Kids divisions have a lot of protections for the neck. Fewer for adults, particularly as you move up in belt level.
As I said above, the move wasn't malicious, and is not against the rules. I use it all the time, particularly against guys who like to work a flexible open guard. A video is below of how it's supposed to look.
This is tragic, but it's no ones fault, except maybe the coaches for allowing the kid to compete against adults too soon. Rushing to judgement and advocating lawsuits is just horrible, and would only make a sad situation worse.
When I was a brown belt (Karate) I was leaving a tournament after being eliminated. Right by the door was a green belt division going on and I was friendly with a kid who was competing, so I stopped, sat and watched.
Never got to see him fight.
A match was going and on and a green belt threw a jump kick at his opponent. The opponent reacted and threw his hands up. The kicker's foot got caught in the other guy's sleeve and flipped his balance a hundred and eighty degrees and he landed on his head. His neck broke. Freak accident. But I was sitting ten feet away and it still haunts me if I think about it. The vid of that Jits tournament match brought it all back. As a city kid and retired cop I've been around bodies before, you compartmentalize, deal, and do your job.
But that Jits vid kind of shook me.
Never got to see him fight.
A match was going and on and a green belt threw a jump kick at his opponent. The opponent reacted and threw his hands up. The kicker's foot got caught in the other guy's sleeve and flipped his balance a hundred and eighty degrees and he landed on his head. His neck broke. Freak accident. But I was sitting ten feet away and it still haunts me if I think about it. The vid of that Jits tournament match brought it all back. As a city kid and retired cop I've been around bodies before, you compartmentalize, deal, and do your job.
But that Jits vid kind of shook me.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
Which part, kman?
I think if we look at this situation it is quite frankly a freak accident. I agree with Steve in that the coaches/group hosting the tournament should not have allowed a 15 year old to compete with men. No matter what we personally decide here it is absolutely tragic for this young man and his family.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
How is this relevant here? The kid wasn't slammed. You're reacting emotionally and don't have enough knowledge to understand what you're talking about.
The article is correct that slams are dangerous, and illegal in most Jiu Jitsu tournaments.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
Related to my last post, I've been thinking this through. It would help this discussion to add some clarity regarding what is and isn't a slam.
The truth is, it's really a judgment call in most cases, that often revolves around a referee's determination of control and intent. If you look in the IBJJF rulebook, a slam is listed as an illegal technique which will result in immediate DQ at all levels. But while there is a full page, along with pictures, of what constitutes the reaping of the knee, there is no further explanation of the term "slam." I guess they think it's like porn. You'll know it when you see it.
But there are guidelines for determining whether something is a slam. First, slams typically occur in two different phases of the game: takedowns and submission defense.
In a takedown, it is typically considered a slam if the person executing the technique adds unnecessary force to the descent, or fails to adequately control the descent. There are some signs that a take down may be a slam. The guy executing the takedown holds the other guy in the air (in other words, there is an unnatural break in the execution of the technique). The guy executing the takedown jumps into the air to add amplitude to the technique. The guy doing the takedown is perceived to be adding his/her own weight to the takedown (such as coming over the top and driving a shoulder into the sternum unnecessarily). Spiking the other guy. All of this said, takedowns can hurt and there is some responsibility on the part of the competitors to know how to fall safely. And even then, they can still hurt and not be considered a slam. Usually, provided the takedown was executed as a single motion and none of the other items above were perceived, it will not be considered a slam.
The other phase of the game where slams can occur is in submission defenses, within someone's guard. This is kind of what we're looking at in the video in the OP. What referees tend to look at here are, again, signs that there is intent to harm your opponent and a lack of control descent. It usually starts on the mat and involves either slamming to defend a submission (armbar or triangle, usually), to open a closed guard, or in particularly egregious examples, just to make someone pay for jumping guard. From guard, it's very cut and dry when something is a slam. The guy is picked up and then dropped. It's much less gray than in a takedown, and usually involves someone with a lack of technique just going ape. While I have seen a black belt who should know better slam his opponent in a tournament while defending a triangle, it most often happens at the lower levels, where guys just don't have the tools and/or good sense to counter a submission attempt.
Anyway, hope this helps the discussion. I'll see if I can find some video examples of good and bad takedowns and also slams from guard, if I have time later.
The truth is, it's really a judgment call in most cases, that often revolves around a referee's determination of control and intent. If you look in the IBJJF rulebook, a slam is listed as an illegal technique which will result in immediate DQ at all levels. But while there is a full page, along with pictures, of what constitutes the reaping of the knee, there is no further explanation of the term "slam." I guess they think it's like porn. You'll know it when you see it.
But there are guidelines for determining whether something is a slam. First, slams typically occur in two different phases of the game: takedowns and submission defense.
In a takedown, it is typically considered a slam if the person executing the technique adds unnecessary force to the descent, or fails to adequately control the descent. There are some signs that a take down may be a slam. The guy executing the takedown holds the other guy in the air (in other words, there is an unnatural break in the execution of the technique). The guy executing the takedown jumps into the air to add amplitude to the technique. The guy doing the takedown is perceived to be adding his/her own weight to the takedown (such as coming over the top and driving a shoulder into the sternum unnecessarily). Spiking the other guy. All of this said, takedowns can hurt and there is some responsibility on the part of the competitors to know how to fall safely. And even then, they can still hurt and not be considered a slam. Usually, provided the takedown was executed as a single motion and none of the other items above were perceived, it will not be considered a slam.
The other phase of the game where slams can occur is in submission defenses, within someone's guard. This is kind of what we're looking at in the video in the OP. What referees tend to look at here are, again, signs that there is intent to harm your opponent and a lack of control descent. It usually starts on the mat and involves either slamming to defend a submission (armbar or triangle, usually), to open a closed guard, or in particularly egregious examples, just to make someone pay for jumping guard. From guard, it's very cut and dry when something is a slam. The guy is picked up and then dropped. It's much less gray than in a takedown, and usually involves someone with a lack of technique just going ape. While I have seen a black belt who should know better slam his opponent in a tournament while defending a triangle, it most often happens at the lower levels, where guys just don't have the tools and/or good sense to counter a submission attempt.
Anyway, hope this helps the discussion. I'll see if I can find some video examples of good and bad takedowns and also slams from guard, if I have time later.
I don't claim to have expertise here but these guys (Graciemag) do. If they say it's a slam and illegal I'll take their word for it. The guy is partially paralysed from a move that is technically illegal. His head was driven into the ground, intentional or not. There is not a sporting event anywhere that allows that action and if it is outside the rules of the event a victim is entitled to sue for civil damages if injury occurs regardless of any waiver signed.
I find your tone in describing me as 'reacting emotionally' extremely distasteful.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
You have no expertise on a subject, but are making bold declarations and drawing extreme conclusions anyway. Wow. I recommend you go back to every kata thread you've participated in and take every bit of advice you've given to Hanzou or others. Apply the standard to which you hold others to yourself.
The graciemag link you provided is not news. It's not any kind of analysis. It's a general statement about slams that provides no details. Even in the video they link to the difference between those slams and the situation in the OP is night and day.
For the record, 'GracieMag' isn't a group of BJJ experts on competition or refereeing. It is a group of people who are largely paid per post to provide puff pieces and soft news articles, including a lot of advertising for events and promotions. Erin Herle is the person who wrote the blog entry you linked to above. She's been training since 2009, according to her site, and I didn't see anywhere in her online resume that she's trained as a referee or has particular credentials that would make her analysis of what is or isn't a slam particularly authoritative. I get that you don't like me, but get over yourself. Don't listen to me. Listen to Tony, or Buka, or anyone else. They're all saying pretty much the same thing. This was a tragic accident, but it was a fluke.
What is distasteful is that you would advocate that the kid (19 years old) who did nothing wrong, get sued for everything he's worth. Take a tragedy that has likely changed BOTH of these kids' lives forever anyway and make things worse. And it's said that America is overly litigious. Holy cow. Your entire attitude in this thread has been distasteful, from your snap judgment based on ignorance, to your posting of what is little more than a blog entry on slams, in general, and concluding from a reference to the injury involved that it was an illegal technique.
You have demonstrated that you aren't at all interested in understanding what happened. Against any evidence to the contrary, you will hold out that you are right and the people in this thread who ACTUALLY know something about the subject, are wrong. I've said it. Tony has said it. Buka has said it. Everyone with any grappling experience here agrees that this was a tragic, fluke accident. But, you'll cling to this blog entry by a person who has less experience than anyone else in this thread, because it was posted on the internet. Good grief.
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