Bro-mance

[Curiousminds]

Ok this is a bit long so please bare with me.

Ive been training for 6 years straight in one particular art. Ill keep what art, out of this discussion as its not relevant, plus a couple of years on and off.

I spent my time as a regular in 3 dojo’s over that time.

We all have our reasons for training in the arts and mine is to keep me fit and healthy and to give me some confidence if I ever need to get out of a sticky situation as there have been these time on a number of occasions.

For me its about not fighting. To be confident within myself and my abilities and project that confidence in my everyday life so I am not a weak target.



In the dojo there is a relationship between the Uke and Tori and one of the Uke’s jobs is to help your partner understand and execute the technique we are practicing by giving constructive feedback, applying sufficient resistance to help them find the correct application and testing the technique for real once they understand the technique.



I am really not interested in getting into a debate about what art is more effective or not in the real world. As I said, we all have our reasons for training and for a lot of us its not about fighting, its about not fighting.

So that’s a bit of background, now I come to the problem I have.

Over the last 6 years I have found a certain dynamic among students that when it comes to partnering up, the inexperienced (and the females) get left standing there due to no one wanting to train with them.

One of the dojos I attended had this dynamic very well in check with the sensei choosing who trained with new students (beginners & females) before saying “partner up”. It worked well and there didn’t seem to be any issues with that.

When I first started training this dynamic was very obvious and thought this would change as I get more experienced.

The dojo I attend at the moment on a regular basis doesn’t really address this issue and I am finding that men really don’t like training with females no matter how experienced they are. I guess this is an age old issue and one that never seems to be really solved.

There are 2 males at my dojo who always seek each other out and clearly do not like training with females. Even when I am right beside them and the “change partners” instruction comes they will simply turn away and choose a male and its seems to be getting worse.

Ill call these 2 guys a. and b.. One night I was training with one of them - a., and right in the middle of training without the “switch around” instruction he walked away over to the other guy b. who he tends to train with a lot and told the guy training with b. to go and train with me. WTF!

Then recently I get the impression that b. has mentioned to the sensei that he doesn’t want to train with females and my sensei has stopped calling "change partners". We just stay with the same partner the entire session. Our dojo is a small dojo, only at max 5 or 6 students so 2 of them – a. and b. always pair up every session of late. The rest of the students are either beginners or low to mid kyu grades and I’m finding the only people I am training with lately are beginners of kyu grades..

Everyone, male and female wants to train with someone who is bigger than them for obvious reasons but the changing partners every so often helps to get practice with all body types and sizes. To me I find this practice of training with the same partner every session, self absorbed when you are in a dojo environment.

I feel this is a major issue on many levels from the students on both ends of this not getting the most out of their training, the sensei pandering to and by action agreeing with these views, to coming to the realization why there are very few female students in my art (they come but never stay) and only a hand full of female instructors. I’m very surprised and disappointed that my sensei seems to think that I am oblivious to all of this and has implemented changes to accommodate these 2. These two guys may as well just stay at home and train together exclusively. That’s what its like – they may as well not even be in the dojo for all the good they are to anyone.

Some people I have spoken to about this have said I should discuss this with my sensei the way I see it is that he has made his choices and me talking to him about it would only make things awkward.
I dont have the ability to change dojo's as there are no others around where I live.

What are everyone’s views on this?

 

[skribs]

I've had the same thing happen to me, and I'm male. Just the other day, in fact, in our BJJ class. There were four of us in class. I'm a 1-stripe white belt. There's also a purple belt who has several years of experience in the art. We had two people who were in their first or second week, one of them around 125-150 pounds (my partner) and the other near 300 (with the purple belt). When the professor explained the second technique, my partner asked if he could "try this on [the purple belt]", so then I get stuck working with a guy who's got a hundred pounds on me.

All of us are male. The purple belt is around my size. But my partner wanted to work with a more experienced partner. Normally, you drill with the same person (or two people in an odd class) during the entire drilling segment of class.

In most cases where someone sees an -ism, I have to question whether it really happened or not. For example, I've had many men condescendingly tell me things. So if that person condescendingly tells a woman something, it doesn't mean he's mansplaining and sexist. He's just condescending in general. However, in this case, it does sound like they are choosing their rolling partners based on gender.

In most cases, I would say it is a combination of the following items, and probably some I've missed. I'm guessing some of these apply in your case:

• When you find a rolling partner you like, you tend to roll with them as much as you can
• Finding a partner of a similar size/strength/skill can help you feel comfortable with the drill
• Caution of a sexual harassment or sexual assault claim should you accidentally touch them in an inappropriate spot
• Social anxiety and you've found someone you're comfortable with

I also think there's a difference between preferring to roll with specific students and exclusively rolling with specific students. If people have their favorites, but also mingle, then that's one thing. Some days you have something specific you want to work on.

I always say you should pick a school, and not an art. Art debates be damned: if you don't like the school, then find another school where you're going to invest your time and money into. Maybe another one in the same art. Maybe pick a new art. Your other options are:

1. Talk to the instructor about your views and say that you shouldn't be treated different for being a woman, and see if he goes back to assigning partners or if he still caves to the dude-bros
2. Ignore the situation and train with those who want to train with you, and be the female that other females can look up to when they show up to class

 

[Curiousminds]

I've had the same thing happen to me, and I'm male. Just the other day, in fact, in our BJJ class. There were four of us in class. I'm a 1-stripe white belt. There's also a purple belt who has several years of experience in the art. We had two people who were in their first or second week, one of them around 125-150 pounds (my partner) and the other near 300 (with the purple belt). When the professor explained the second technique, my partner asked if he could "try this on [the purple belt]", so then I get stuck working with a guy who's got a hundred pounds on me.

All of us are male. The purple belt is around my size. But my partner wanted to work with a more experienced partner. Normally, you drill with the same person (or two people in an odd class) during the entire drilling segment of class.

In most cases where someone sees an -ism, I have to question whether it really happened or not. For example, I've had many men condescendingly tell me things. So if that person condescendingly tells a woman something, it doesn't mean he's mansplaining and sexist. He's just condescending in general. However, in this case, it does sound like they are choosing their rolling partners based on gender.

In most cases, I would say it is a combination of the following items, and probably some I've missed. I'm guessing some of these apply in your case:

• When you find a rolling partner you like, you tend to roll with them as much as you can
• Finding a partner of a similar size/strength/skill can help you feel comfortable with the drill
• Caution of a sexual harassment or sexual assault claim should you accidentally touch them in an inappropriate spot
• Social anxiety and you've found someone you're comfortable with

I also think there's a difference between preferring to roll with specific students and exclusively rolling with specific students. If people have their favorites, but also mingle, then that's one thing. Some days you have something specific you want to work on.

I always say you should pick a school, and not an art. Art debates be damned: if you don't like the school, then find another school where you're going to invest your time and money into. Maybe another one in the same art. Maybe pick a new art. Your other options are:

1. Talk to the instructor about your views and say that you shouldn't be treated different for being a woman, and see if he goes back to assigning partners or if he still caves to the dude-bros
2. Ignore the situation and train with those who want to train with you, and be the female that other females can look up to when they show up to class

Yes I did say beginners and females and I did not mean to suggest it was an ism thing but rather a size thing or something else that I am just not getting. Seems it’s a few things considering men don’t like training with beginners either. Its definitely not an experience thing when it comes to females because I am a 3rd Dan.

Could be men perceive training with females as “violence against women” …..I don’t know but when you step on the mat there is an implied consent for anyone. It annoys the hell out of me when men train with me and treat me like I am going to break if you so much as breath on me.

Your first option as I said is not an option because he has already made his decision and made changes based on that. The second option is the only option I have really but its not ideal.

In my art we switch partners at the instructors command around 5 times every hour. That is normal in every dojo.

Sticking with “rolling” partners as you put it is not an acceptable practice in my art. Its considered bad etiquette.

The only example in your “most cases” examples that applies here is the last 2 examples, both of which should not be cultivated, especially by a 10th Dan instructor.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

So first, you're making a couple of assumptions that don't bear out from your own post. The main two are that A and B are being sexist in not wanting to train with you, and that they discussed this with your sensei and that's why he stopped offering changes.

Regarding 1: It's possible that they are just friends and like to train with each other. From what you've stated, they don't choose to train with other men, and ignore you, they just choose to partner up with each other. That's a super common thing, has nothing to do with gender, and personally I believe should be addressed by the instructor, but not all instructors believe that.

Regarding your statements about it being bad etiquette, and the sensei no longer offering to change-what makes you think it was because of them/they requested he stop? From what you wrote, it sounds like you're just assuming that, rather than him telling you it.

Okay, that said, I actually agree with you on your general point. IMO people should switch partners often, and while I (as well as many others) have partners I'd rather train with, it's useful to train with different partners, those with less and more experience than yourself, and those with different styles. If I was in your situation, I'd discuss it with your sensei. I wouldn't bring sexism in it at all (as nothing you've stated indicates sexism), but I'd say something like "Hey, there's only 3 of us with experience, and lately the 2 others with experience seem to pair off with each other and I'm stuck with the beginners. Can we do it as we used to where we change partners often during class, so I can train with people at my skill level too?" At the very least, if the 3 of you are the only non-beginners, and the sensei doesn't participate as well (which is another option to bring up), you guys should be doing a round-robin.

 

[Curiousminds]

So first, you're making a couple of assumptions that don't bear out from your own post. The main two are that A and B are being sexist in not wanting to train with you, and that they discussed this with your sensei and that's why he stopped offering changes.

Regarding 1: It's possible that they are just friends and like to train with each other. From what you've stated, they don't choose to train with other men, and ignore you, they just choose to partner up with each other. That's a super common thing, has nothing to do with gender, and personally I believe should be addressed by the instructor, but not all instructors believe that.

Regarding your statements about it being bad etiquette, and the sensei no longer offering to change-what makes you think it was because of them/they requested he stop? From what you wrote, it sounds like you're just assuming that, rather than him telling you it.

Okay, that said, I actually agree with you on your general point. IMO people should switch partners often, and while I (as well as many others) have partners I'd rather train with, it's useful to train with different partners, those with less and more experience than yourself, and those with different styles. If I was in your situation, I'd discuss it with your sensei. I wouldn't bring sexism in it at all (as nothing you've stated indicates sexism), but I'd say something like "Hey, there's only 3 of us with experience, and lately the 2 others with experience seem to pair off with each other and I'm stuck with the beginners. Can we do it as we used to where we change partners often during class, so I can train with people at my skill level too?" At the very least, if the 3 of you are the only non-beginners, and the sensei doesn't participate as well (which is another option to bring up), you guys should be doing a round-robin.

Wow, no, I never said that A and B are being sexist. I said that A. walked away from me and told the guy that B. was training with to go train with me and B. :seemed to have talked to sensei that he didn’t want to train with women based on what has happened.

Only 1 assumption based on factual behaviour. It’s a reasonable extrapolation considering both these two rarely train with women in our dojo..

And yes, no one is going to just come out with “hey man I don’t like training with women” in public, now are they? They are going to say these things in private.

As I said based on what has happened its a reasonable extrapolation that these two are actively avoiding women in the dojo. Sexism? Well, what is sexism since the two people who have posted here have suggested its not it…….I never said sexism, you two did.

Every thing you have said from “Ok that said” I really agree with, thankyou for that perspective, and no the sensei in my art in the years Ive trained never participates.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Wow, no, I never said that A and B are being sexist. I said that A. walked away from me and told the guy that B. was training with to go train with me and B. :seemed to have talked to sensei that he didn’t want to train with women based on what has happened.

Only 1 assumption based on factual behaviour. It’s a reasonable extrapolation considering both these two rarely train with women in our dojo..

And yes, no one is going to just come out with “hey man I don’t like training with women” in public, now are they? They are going to say these things in private.

As I said based on what has happened its a reasonable extrapolation that these two are actively avoiding women in the dojo. Sexism? Well, what is sexism since the two people who have posted here have suggested its not it…….I never said sexism, you two did.

Every thing you have said from “Ok that said” I really agree with, thankyou for that perspective, and no the sensei in my art in the years Ive trained never participates.

So the "Ok that said" Was really the meat and potatoes of my post. But, how is "There are 2 males at my dojo who always seek each other out and clearly do not like training with females. Even when I am right beside them and the “change partners” instruction comes they will simply turn away and choose a male and its seems to be getting worse." not suggesting the two guys are sexist? You believe that they're actively choosing partners based on sex, yes? And do not want specific partners also based on sex? By that logic, you believe they are sexist; am I missing something there? Even in your reply that you didn't say their sexist you mention b does not want to train with women, which to me is sexist. I've no issue with that, but you're claiming it without any evidence from them, and also saying that they only train with each other.

If you're not claiming that they're sexist, you can ignore pretty much all of that though. But if you believe they have had discussions with the sensei refusing to train with you, a 3rd dan, because you're a women, then yes, that would be them being sexist. Which is what you seem to be claiming without using the word, unless I'm grossly misunderstanding something here.

I also find it weird personally that your sensei does not train, and find that to be bad 'dojo etiquette' personally; the only instances where I've had instructors that don't train with us is when they've had medical issues preventing it. If that's not the case, I'd expect instructors to train/spar with everyone, and when I've instructed I've done that. I remember one of my old instructors breaking a leg, and actively apologizing each session for not doing jumping jack's/pushups with us, and not sparring towards the end of class.

 

[Curiousminds]

So the "Ok that said" Was really the meat and potatoes of my post. But, how is "There are 2 males at my dojo who always seek each other out and clearly do not like training with females. Even when I am right beside them and the “change partners” instruction comes they will simply turn away and choose a male and its seems to be getting worse." not suggesting the two guys are sexist? You believe that they're actively choosing partners based on sex, yes? And do not want specific partners also based on sex? By that logic, you believe they are sexist; am I missing something there? Even in your reply that you didn't say their sexist you mention b does not want to train with women, which to me is sexist. I've no issue with that, but you're claiming it without any evidence from them, and also saying that they only train with each other.

If you're not claiming that they're sexist, you can ignore pretty much all of that though. But if you believe they have had discussions with the sensei refusing to train with you, a 3rd dan, because you're a women, then yes, that would be them being sexist. Which is what you seem to be claiming without using the word, unless I'm grossly misunderstanding something here.

I also find it weird personally that your sensei does not train, and find that to be bad 'dojo etiquette' personally; the only instances where I've had instructors that don't train with us is when they've had medical issues preventing it. If that's not the case, I'd expect instructors to train/spar with everyone, and when I've instructed I've done that. I remember one of my old instructors breaking a leg, and actively apologizing each session for not doing jumping jack's/pushups with us, and not sparring towards the end of class.

 

[Curiousminds]

I am not claiming anyone is sexist ok, never said it? There are a multitude of reasons why men don’t like training with women, I get it, many of which has nothing to do with sexism. It could be, but not claiming it is. If you think it is, then that’s fine.



I have not claimed that both of them have had discussions with sensei refusing to train with me, I am saying that B. seems as though he has said to sensei he doesn’t like training with women base on the fact that suddenly sensei has stopped changing partners.. I am not suggesting that is sexism you are I suppose. I am asking others to judge what the cause is,. Is it sexism?..... not sure just what sexism is really when I try to analyse it. All I know is that these two……separately ……… are acting in a fashion that causes women to feel they don’t really have any value in training. Is that sexism?



As for instructors that don’t train with their students…..well….in all the years…..that is to say the last six year…I have never had an instructor train with students in any dojo Ive attended.. Prior to that six years….yes, absolutely they did but not these days, not in any dojo I know of in my art.

Yes they call students out to show a technique but they do not “train” with students. You may find that weird in your art but its not in mine

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I am not claiming anyone is sexist ok, never said it? There are a multitude of reasons why men don’t like training with women, I get it, many of which has nothing to do with sexism. It could be, but not claiming it is. If you think it is, then that’s fine.



I have not claimed that both of them have had discussions with sensei refusing to train with me, I am saying that B. seems as though he has said to sensei he doesn’t like training with women base on the fact that suddenly sensei has stopped changing partners.. I am not suggesting that is sexism you are I suppose. I am asking others to judge what the cause is,. Is it sexism?..... not sure just what sexism is really when I try to analyse it. All I know is that these two……separately ……… are acting in a fashion that causes women to feel they don’t really have any value in training. Is that sexism?

Since it's not really relevant to your questions so I won't argue about it further.

As for instructors that don’t train with their students…..well….in all the years…..that is to say the last six year…I have never had an instructor train with students in any dojo Ive attended.. Prior to that six years….yes, absolutely they did but not these days, not in any dojo I know of in my art.

Yes they call students out to show a technique but they do not “train” with students. You may find that weird in your art but its not in mine

I do find that weird. Have you trained in multiple different dojos in the last 6 years, or just one? You seem to know that previously it was normal for instructors to train with their students, not sure why it would have changed randomly over the last 6 years.

I've trained in multiple different arts (kempo, kenpo, kung fu, okinawan karate, shaolin-do, tai chi, kali, kickboxing, fencing, judo, sambo and bjj) and in a couple different gyms/dojos for some of those over the past 25 years, spanning multiple different states, and like I stated have not had an issue with instructors training with students unless there was a medical issue. There was only once that the instructor refused to train for no clear reason, and his students were all much worse than I'd expect given their experience, but like said above, it's not really relevant to your questions so I won't argue about it further.

 

[drop bear]

As for instructors that don’t train with their students…..well….in all the years…..that is to say the last six year…I have never had an instructor train with students in any dojo Ive attended.. Prior to that six years….yes, absolutely they did but not these days, not in any dojo I know of in my art.

Yes they call students out to show a technique but they do not “train” with students. You may find that weird in your art but its not in mine

There's your problem.

If the standard is set that instructor's don't train with everyone. Then that is the standard everyone will adopt.

Which is apparently what they are doing.

It is an easy fix.

Do MMA.

 

[drop bear]

You could also communicate a bit more. As to actually approach these guys and break them up to train with them.

You could even soft sell the idea by bailing them up and saying something like I really love the way you ninja pose or whatever. Do you mind if I partner up with you some times to take advantage of that.

 

[Gyakuto]

I'll play devil's advocate for a moment...

As a relatively advanced student, perhaps with a significant grading etc approaching, I am 'asked' to train/teach a beginner by virtue of partnering up with them and possibly having my advancement interupted, a privilege for which I have paid with my dojo fees. It's quite an ask, and indeed quite a presumption on the beginner's part, don't you think?

However, this is how most dojo operate. The advanced students do help progress the beginners (and from my experience, they usually really enjoy and look forward to do so- to show off their skills a little!) and often pay for the privilege. It is a great service that advanced students generally, willingly provide. So why has this 'natural order' of things broken down in your dojo? Are they and your teacher just rude? Are they using you merely as an inconvenient provider of dojo fees? Have you behaved, perhaps inadvertantly, in such a way as to discourage their whole-hearted support of you? Is their behaviour just a temporary thing until the 'impending event' is passed?

A few questions you could ask of your teacher, perhaps.

 

[Gyakuto]

I recently attended an Aikido class and the teacher was very prescriptive that everyone should practise with everyone else. The all had to train with me the beginner, ‘holding them back’. So to counter this possible negative attitude toward me, I thanked each partner profusely at the end of each swap-around, during the segment, I would make impressed comments (genuine ones) and compliment a move they made or an explanation they gave, thus endearing myself to them and thus making the want to teach me.

But all the while, inside of me, I wanted to destroy them with my sword, rip out their hearts and stomp on them until the mat was replete with a patch of red, sticky paste, where their heart previously quivered. It’s who I am

 

[Gyakuto]

Re-reading your posts and responses to other posters I am guessing they simply don’t like training with you which is odd since 3rd Dan is an intermediate grade, rather than a beginner. They don’t gel with you for some reason….perhaps they’re uncomfortable around you for some reason. As a rhetorical question, is there some ‘history‘ between you and them? Rivalry, perhaps?

 

[tkdroamer]

Ok this is a bit long so please bare with me.

Ive been training for 6 years straight in one particular art. Ill keep what art, out of this discussion as its not relevant, plus a couple of years on and off.

I spent my time as a regular in 3 dojo’s over that time.

We all have our reasons for training in the arts and mine is to keep me fit and healthy and to give me some confidence if I ever need to get out of a sticky situation as there have been these time on a number of occasions.

For me its about not fighting. To be confident within myself and my abilities and project that confidence in my everyday life so I am not a weak target.



In the dojo there is a relationship between the Uke and Tori and one of the Uke’s jobs is to help your partner understand and execute the technique we are practicing by giving constructive feedback, applying sufficient resistance to help them find the correct application and testing the technique for real once they understand the technique.



I am really not interested in getting into a debate about what art is more effective or not in the real world. As I said, we all have our reasons for training and for a lot of us its not about fighting, its about not fighting.

So that’s a bit of background, now I come to the problem I have.

Over the last 6 years I have found a certain dynamic among students that when it comes to partnering up, the inexperienced (and the females) get left standing there due to no one wanting to train with them.

One of the dojos I attended had this dynamic very well in check with the sensei choosing who trained with new students (beginners & females) before saying “partner up”. It worked well and there didn’t seem to be any issues with that.

When I first started training this dynamic was very obvious and thought this would change as I get more experienced.

The dojo I attend at the moment on a regular basis doesn’t really address this issue and I am finding that men really don’t like training with females no matter how experienced they are. I guess this is an age old issue and one that never seems to be really solved.

There are 2 males at my dojo who always seek each other out and clearly do not like training with females. Even when I am right beside them and the “change partners” instruction comes they will simply turn away and choose a male and its seems to be getting worse.

Ill call these 2 guys a. and b.. One night I was training with one of them - a., and right in the middle of training without the “switch around” instruction he walked away over to the other guy b. who he tends to train with a lot and told the guy training with b. to go and train with me. WTF!

Then recently I get the impression that b. has mentioned to the sensei that he doesn’t want to train with females and my sensei has stopped calling "change partners". We just stay with the same partner the entire session. Our dojo is a small dojo, only at max 5 or 6 students so 2 of them – a. and b. always pair up every session of late. The rest of the students are either beginners or low to mid kyu grades and I’m finding the only people I am training with lately are beginners of kyu grades..

Everyone, male and female wants to train with someone who is bigger than them for obvious reasons but the changing partners every so often helps to get practice with all body types and sizes. To me I find this practice of training with the same partner every session, self absorbed when you are in a dojo environment.

I feel this is a major issue on many levels from the students on both ends of this not getting the most out of their training, the sensei pandering to and by action agreeing with these views, to coming to the realization why there are very few female students in my art (they come but never stay) and only a hand full of female instructors. I’m very surprised and disappointed that my sensei seems to think that I am oblivious to all of this and has implemented changes to accommodate these 2. These two guys may as well just stay at home and train together exclusively. That’s what its like – they may as well not even be in the dojo for all the good they are to anyone.

Some people I have spoken to about this have said I should discuss this with my sensei the way I see it is that he has made his choices and me talking to him about it would only make things awkward.
I dont have the ability to change dojo's as there are no others" around where I live.

What are everyone’s views on this?

I read through the whole thread and will try to cut to the chase.

You are in a small group of 5-6 students. You have no other dojos in your area. You have experience which should help you navigate some of this. So, you have to make it work. Be the person people want to work out with. Whatever that means. It is a different school and a different environment. This means things will be different. And, I could have led with this, talk to the instructor. I hope you are not thinking high(ish) rank automatically gives you some sort of deference. It does not. Especially in a new and small dojo.

Work it out. There is no magic pill.
Based on some of what you said, I am assuming you are not rolling. As much as you may not want sex to matter, it will when it comes to rolling. And it goes both ways. It is just weird to repeatedly grab someone, especially of the opposite sex, in certain areas. That will never change, I hope.
"The way I see it" indicates You have already made up your mind before you talked to the instructor. That indicates assumption on your part. It doesn't work that way.
I hope for everyone's sake you can work this out. The martial arts world as a whole needs as many schools operating as possible. I wish you the best.

 

[skribs]

:seemed to have talked to sensei that he didn’t want to train with women based on what has happened.

Then I take back the part of my post where I said they were. If these were all assumptions you made, then it probably isn't any ism, but probably just that they like rolling with each other for one of the numerous reasons I said.

 

[skribs]

Could be men perceive training with females as “violence against women” …..I don’t know but when you step on the mat there is an implied consent for anyone. It annoys the hell out of me when men train with me and treat me like I am going to break if you so much as breath on me.

Some do. Most of the time if someone doesn't want to roll with women because of personal reasons, it's what I said. They're worried about accidental inappropriate touching and/or how that might be perceived.

Your first option as I said is not an option because he has already made his decision and made changes based on that. The second option is the only option I have really but its not ideal.

People can change their minds when presented with new arguments. Especially if that new argument is coming from another customer.

Also, as you said in post #5, you are making assumptions about the conversation and the decisions that followed. All the more reason to talk to him and see if this is actually the case, or if it's all in your head.

In my art we switch partners at the instructors command around 5 times every hour. That is normal in every dojo.

Sticking with “rolling” partners as you put it is not an acceptable practice in my art. Its considered bad etiquette.

The only example in your “most cases” examples that applies here is the last 2 examples, both of which should not be cultivated, especially by a 10th Dan instructor.

In general, people are flawed. Please point to me someone in the last 1000 years who wasn't. Even your 10th Dan instructor is flawed. Even your upper belts are flawed. It's something you have to deal with.

With that said, I will say that a 10th Dan instructor should have a better idea of what the rules are in the dojo than you do, and if he has indeed made a decision, there may be a reason why.

I present to you again your three options on how to deal with it:

1. Leave It (leave the dojo)
2. Communicate (talk to those individuals or your instructor about how you think it unfair)
3. Ignore It (just train what you can given the situation)

 

[Dirty Dog]

I have deleted all the extraneous commentary to get to what is likely the real issue.

Some people I have spoken to about this have said I should discuss this with my sensei the way I see it is that he has made his choices and me talking to him about it would only make things awkward.

Talking to the people involved? That's a crazy idea!

A huge portion of interpersonal problems can be solved by the simple expedient of talking to the people involved. Why on earth would you ask a bunch of strangers on the internet instead of the people in your dojo?

As your reason for training, you say

give me some confidence if I ever need to get out of a sticky situation

.

You've been training for 6-8 years, from what you've written. You're now in a sticky situation. There is an incredibly obvious way out of the situation, and you're avoiding it. What does that tell you?

 

[Rich Parsons]

Ok this is a bit long so please bare with me.

Ive been training for 6 years straight in one particular art. Ill keep what art, out of this discussion as its not relevant, plus a couple of years on and off.

I spent my time as a regular in 3 dojo’s over that time.

We all have our reasons for training in the arts and mine is to keep me fit and healthy and to give me some confidence if I ever need to get out of a sticky situation as there have been these time on a number of occasions.

For me its about not fighting. To be confident within myself and my abilities and project that confidence in my everyday life so I am not a weak target.

Goals always good. And while those are your goal and good for you, they may not be the goals of everyone in the class.
Not that, would invalidate your goals in anyway at all.

In the dojo there is a relationship between the Uke and Tori and one of the Uke’s jobs is to help your partner understand and execute the technique we are practicing by giving constructive feedback, applying sufficient resistance to help them find the correct application and testing the technique for real once they understand the technique.

Yes, and the senior or more trained and or more mature may sometimes be teaching from the uke side.

I am really not interested in getting into a debate about what art is more effective or not in the real world. As I said, we all have our reasons for training and for a lot of us its not about fighting, its about not fighting.

So that’s a bit of background, now I come to the problem I have.

Over the last 6 years I have found a certain dynamic among students that when it comes to partnering up, the inexperienced (and the females) get left standing there due to no one wanting to train with them.

I would council when this task is assigned to find a partner, do what they others are doing and walk up to someone and say I want to work with you.

I am a large male, and I have had women come up to me and want to work with me and ask me , to help them learn the techniques even if it is someone else's seminar / style / art.

I am always happy to help those who ask.
If you walk up and there are two guys teamed up , pick one and say I want to train with you first and then you next. Ok.
Make it a statement not a question.
Let them both deny you , and if you are doing this first the instructor should see it , and react if neither is willing to work with you.
And if they both ignore you (doesn't have to be the two in particular you mentioned ) .
If they instructor doesn't react then nor after class, then ask to speak to them.

This is also part of the practice for your confidence "To be confident within myself and my abilities and project that confidence in my everyday life so I am not a weak target." . This helps you practice that even in class.

One of the dojos I attended had this dynamic very well in check with the sensei choosing who trained with new students (beginners & females) before saying “partner up”. It worked well and there didn’t seem to be any issues with that.

When I first started training this dynamic was very obvious and thought this would change as I get more experienced.

If there is a person in has a lack of control and might be a higher belt, they many times are still placed with other people who do not mind that level of contact or can react and protect themselves and they continue to try to teach the control factor.

So it is not always about not pairing you up, it could be about avoiding an issue.

There is also the possibility that a person has a very jealous spouse, and they asked the instructor that they not work with the opposite sex to avoid conflicts at home. The instructor in this case would know about this because they talked to them.

The dojo I attend at the moment on a regular basis doesn’t really address this issue and I am finding that men really don’t like training with females no matter how experienced they are. I guess this is an age old issue and one that never seems to be really solved.

I have been places where the females will go all out to try to prove to me or someone else that they can do it. versus just training at the level they are at for control and technique.
I have also seen this with smaller guys who some might say have SMS (Small Man Syndrome) they look for the big guy to fight spar with. If they win they feel great and like the have proven themselves and if they loose it is ok because look the guy weighs twice as much.
This is about their ego .

So some larger guys will not proactively approach the smaller guys or women to avoid getting a reputation on them being bullies and using their size and strength to hurt or control people.
Hence why I really like it when someone approaches me and says hey I want to train with you. If not this turn then next.

There are 2 males at my dojo who always seek each other out and clearly do not like training with females. Even when I am right beside them and the “change partners” instruction comes they will simply turn away and choose a male and its seems to be getting worse.

I have seen this. They have issues at home with wife and kids. They have issues with work and bills and larger family.
Pick something.
So they know this other person has been there, or is going through it , and they enjoy a hard level of contact or resistance so they can vent some energy. To them is is their therapy.
Is it right? I do not know. I am not a therapist.

Yet I understand , having gone through a divorce and went into class early and would warm up and work out on the heavy bag.
One time someone else was a little earlier than normal and said wow Rich the heavy bag is popping / jumping every time you hit it.
I turned and said, yes, no contact or sparring for me today. This had nothing to do with the other instructors or students other than safety .
Not justifying it being constant, yet I have seen it where they enjoy the level, the chat , the teasing insults . It is part of what they have looked forward too since the last class.

Ill call these 2 guys a. and b.. One night I was training with one of them - a., and right in the middle of training without the “switch around” instruction he walked away over to the other guy b. who he tends to train with a lot and told the guy training with b. to go and train with me. WTF!

Yes this could be insulting to you.
Did you ask him then of after class why?
If it was about his control?
If it was about his personal issues with a spouse being jealous or you remind him of her, then he might have needed some space.

Was it an issue of working the technique and you needed more guidance? Missed class? Poor subject material? First time seeing it?
Because the other guy might be better at teaching it.

It could also be that the guy he sent over to you was getting hurt by the other guy. Or at risk of getting hurt, and he didn't think about you, but about the other person and went and worked with the trouble student or lack of control student.

Lots of things could be going on.
If you talk to them, and or the instructor then you might understand what is driving it.

And if they are just being jerks *Insert other insulting/derogative names here* then you get it out in the open and in front of the instructor.

Then recently I get the impression that b. has mentioned to the sensei that he doesn’t want to train with females and my sensei has stopped calling "change partners". We just stay with the same partner the entire session. Our dojo is a small dojo, only at max 5 or 6 students so 2 of them – a. and b. always pair up every session of late. The rest of the students are either beginners or low to mid kyu grades and I’m finding the only people I am training with lately are beginners of kyu grades..

See above about reasons why they might have issues.

As to only training with mid and beginners, this is now the time for you to really learn.
Beginners have no control and one has to pay attention to avoid the random stuff.
This is good for your overall self defense and confidence of dealing with random people.

Also one has to really understand the technique to guide the lower ranked person through the technique.
This means you get better as you explain more, and demonstrate more. Not just louder or faster, as some think, you break it down and find the words that connect with people and you help to teach them.

Everyone, male and female wants to train with someone who is bigger than them for obvious reasons but the changing partners every so often helps to get practice with all body types and sizes. To me I find this practice of training with the same partner every session, self absorbed when you are in a dojo environment.

I agree the same people all the time makes you learn their favorites and them yours. Then the counters one learns and practices are just for the opponent and then later when working with others they realize against the average person they could be worse then against the person they constant train with / against.

If a woman has hit on me, inside the dojo or outside even if before ever training, I would find it hard to get real close. I don't know what her long term plans are. Are they just to train or just to entrap a person with assault?
One may not know until one asks or waits and lets them prove that they want to train.

I had some females say they can take everything I can give. I work them up during the class to the grip strength and light contact. They think they are doing great. And they are learning. Yet, they have never been handled or attacked like that before.
When they work the technique over time it can give them up to what I can give them. Yet it takes that special person, both male and female.

One seminar, a woman asked to work with me and help her make the technique work. I explained the physics and some of the things the instructor from a different system on the bill that day, was not going or and or demonstrating. I did not let her work the hitting until she got the physics of turning her arm and then the body mechanics where she is strong and I would be weaker. Over time we ramped it up.
She even asked if we could skip the other techniques and just work this grab as she wanted the one thing well.
I worked with her, for multiple reasons. I like teaching. I know many women at a self defense seminar are not coming back to classes. They need something that day to impact them.
So I gripped her arm until she let out a noise and realized there would be pain. I then released and let her absorb that mentally. Then I asked her to let me know when she was ready to try again. She was, and I gripped to that level and then had her do the physics of the technique with the body work / frame. Then we slowly ramped it up.
She then was all amped up and said no do it like you mean it and are going to drag me away. So I grabbed her squeezed really tight and yanked her out of her stance and towards me using my body mechanics and size and then stopped. I let her absorb what just happened.
She said thank you. I needed that break. This was done it it would not overwhelm and possible shutdown the fight response and create a flight response (faint or submit to the assault)

We worked that a few times and she got it. people were watching and she reassured everyone nothing was being done with out her consent and with her request.
So even when I yanked her and squeezed to crush she realized she could not just resist, she had to use physics and the body mechanics to stand a chance against my size. And she got free.

Another time me and another guy were teaching a seminar. He was going over some knife work and an ex girlfriend was attending the grad school nearby and showed up. I told her she could.
We did the knife techniques of lunging into the initial attacked and hammering the knife into the person.
Most were using rubber knives.
I have some nice aluminum ones with real handles and she liked as it was a kitchen knife style blade.
She kept doing the techniques. I did not take my turns other then to help her and guide her.
At a break she was drinking water off the side, and someone asked what was up with her aggression and using the metal aluminum on me.
I smiled and said "Ex-Girlfriend" I then showed him and others the bruises already forming.
When she found out she felt horrible for hurting me.
My response to her and the others, was she needed to feel the weight.
She needed to feel the impact.
She needed to understand the intensity and aggression required.
I lived and healed.

She also said she never would have done it that way if she knew she could hurt me.

I post these examples as while both were serious, one had to walk up to a level of contact normal for self defense.
The other had to learn the techniques and application without being worried of hurting others.

This is more the norm than having a woman walk in and ready to rumble.
Some people do not have the patience.
Some people do not know how to guide the other person to that point. Assuming that point is where they want to be.

Their goals might be for a high level of contact with pain involved. Maybe not the same goals you have.
So know there could be a conflict in your personal goals.

So unless you ask and work with them, and work with the instructor, then nothing is going to change.

I feel this is a major issue on many levels from the students on both ends of this not getting the most out of their training, the sensei pandering to and by action agreeing with these views, to coming to the realization why there are very few female students in my art (they come but never stay) and only a hand full of female instructors. I’m very surprised and disappointed that my sensei seems to think that I am oblivious to all of this and has implemented changes to accommodate these 2. These two guys may as well just stay at home and train together exclusively. That’s what its like – they may as well not even be in the dojo for all the good they are to anyone.

This is true in the FMA. The possibility of getting your hands hit with a can and broken just in normal beginner practice is not anything most women want to work or deal with. NOTE: Many guys don't ether.

Some do not like the idea of sticking a piece of metal into an attacker. This turns them off.

No disrespect to you or the many other women I know who have trained and continue to train in all the arts, yet the following is what I have found is the average feeling / desire / response.

I was taking a small business class at the University .
Others were there obviously, and when the instructor asked me what was my business and plans, I explained Martial Arts.
This one lady wanted a self defense class. I asked her what was her target?
She said recently (Then) someone was kidnapping women from local malls and taking them 45-60 minutes north and leaving them assaulted and raped in a different city.

I said pay attention and I would recommend getting a CPL (Concealed Pistol License) .
Her response I could never shoot anyone.
I said ok, how about carrying a knife?
Still repulsion and upset with me for even suggesting another gross thing to her.
I then asked about chemical / pepper spray, and she was not sure she could even do that.

I then explained the class would be all gross motor skills on how to hit and kick the opponent / attacker.
She said she could never hit anyone.

She just wanted to take a class get a certificate so she would be safe.

She didn't want to do anything to make herself safe, she just wanted someone else to tell her she would be safe and continue on her oblivious way.

Now the original poster discussed being more confident and not an easy or weak target.
This is more then the above example as you also attended classes for 6 years.

So, while the examples goals were not able to be met at all by me or anyone else.

What we have I believe are that the goals of the individual students and the instructors are not all in alignment.
If one was to have a conversation with them, and explain and listen to each other's goals, and then possible make a plan to compromise about each other's goals. Then progress could happen.
If not then you have to decide as the consumer of the product (The class instruction ) if it meets your consumer requirements and your goals and if you need to adjust goals or review the situation and make some hard decisions.

Some people I have spoken to about this have said I should discuss this with my sensei the way I see it is that he has made his choices and me talking to him about it would only make things awkward.
I dont have the ability to change dojo's as there are no others around where I live.

What are everyone’s views on this?

Think upon the post above.
Realize there are infinite reasons why any of these actions are going on.

Discuss with the people involved and or the instructor as a minimum.

Good Luck