British Priest says that "thou shal not steal" is more of a "guideline".

[celtic_crippler]

What the Bishop should be advocating is acts of charity so people won't get so desperate they believe there is no other option than to steal. It is never acceptable to steal, it certainly can be forgiven and it certainly can be understandable if someone is about to starve to death, but I have found there are always other ways. Calling the commandment "thou shalt not steal" a guideline is absurd, it is a commandment, not a guideline.

Good point.

 

[MJS]

"One again this must be a modern English cultural weakness thing, a further example of the decline of the once-mighty British Empire."
:rules:


It didn't read as mildly sarcastic I'm afraid. I don't want to ban discussion of things British, in fact I'd like to encourage more of it! However I don't understand why the actions of one person mean that everyone in a country is labelled the same? Why do people do that. One vicar says something and already it's why the British empire declined and the Brits are degenerate! C'mon it's not me thats needs to lighten up! Just comment on the guy, not equate it to the country.

Yep I'm running on adrenaline at the moment, no sleep for 48 hours as we are dealing with a crisis and yes I'm cranky but things like the quote above don't come over well unless some indication is given it's meant to be funny. A smiley would do, otherwise it looks and sounds like a serious comment.
Bash one man by all means and as long as it's the vicar not the Bishop it's fine (thats a rude English joke).

I can do the jelly babies and the Challenger ( we have a few parked up the road) well I can get you a ride on one anyway lol! Several of my students are tankies.
I can get you a Dalek head that you put on and it changes your voice.

Interesting...I just checked the current open ticket section and closed ticket section in the mod area, and I have not found 1 reported post from this thread. See this is what I, and the rest of the staff, find ourselves repeatedly saying....if you or anyone else, finds a post, no matter who it was made by, offensive, HIT THE RTM BUTTON AND LET THE STAFF DEAL WITH IT!!!!!!!!!! Amazing how people get offended at something, complain in thread, never report it, then, instead of 1 person getting in trouble, we now have 2, because the 2nd person had to fire back, rather than letting the mods deal with it.

As I said in another thread, regarding MMA. Its not that all MMAists are bad, just a select few, that ruin it for the rest. Same thing here. For what its worth, I dont think that the OP was targetting every English person.

Oh well....back to the thread.

 

[MJS]

That's the thing that gets me. In the last few years, I've noticed a huge increase in the presence of charity drives. My son's school does food drives all the time. After the cashier at the supermarket rings up my items, they ask if I want to add a dollar to X charity. Outside, the Salvation Army bells ring. Off to the book store, they want to know if I would like to purchase a book to donate to needy children. My company does a United Way drive every year, the participation in which is "voluntary", then there's Toys for Tots and Adopt a Family and ad infinitum. No to mention taxes going toward relief agencies, and now we have a Congress full of d-bags telling us to pay our "fair share". With the amount of money being thrown at the problem through voluntary and mandatory contributions, there theoretically should be no reason why someone should have to resort to theft. Where the hell is all this money going? I suspect that most of it goes in the pockets of the charity providers.

I agree! I ask myself the same question...where does the money go?? Every time I go grocery shopping, and I'm asked to donate a $1 to whatever charity, I do. On my way out, I'll toss in a few bucks in the Salvation Army guys bucket. My wife, who works in the Acct. dept of a dental supply co., brought in toothbrushes that the company is donating to the needy. Last year, the local PD had a cruiser parked outside the grocery store, for the Annual Stuff a Cruiser event. On my way out, I gave them 2 bags of non parishable food items. Many times during seminars, people are asked to contribute a small amount of cash or a food item, which is dropped off at the food bank.

So...all that being said...why are people stealing again?

 

[Tez3]

I think 'fashionable' charities get the most money, a while back AIDs charities were the in thing, millions were raised for relatively few sufferers, more women were dying of ovarian cancer every week than there were new AIDs sufferers but because it was a show business charity it made money. Breast cancer is the new one, yes it's very worthwhile charity but bowel cancer doesn''t attract nearly as much money but there again more people dying from it.
Here, charities that work abroad are more popular than 'home' charities, the perception I think is that people here can get money from the government but sadly they can't. The money is limited, I don't think asylum seekers here realise when they plan to come here they will only get £33 per week to live on. There are well profiled benefit fraud cases but these are perpetuated by criminals, it leaves however the idea that there aren't any poor people here. There are people too as I've said you are unable to fend for themselves, disabled, mentally ill etc.

The Church of England has for a long while now been working to try to eradicate poverty and social equality here, the vicar in questions 'boss' the Archbishop of York is well known for his views and is an outspoken critic of what he sees as bad policies, inequality and unfairness, to my mind as well as many Christians here this is the path a good man should take. I have great respect for him.
http://www.archbishopofyork.org/2688


Heres an interesting editorial. I don't know anything about Christian arguments but this quote is interesting. it seems this stealing argument is not a new one.
"But the important thing is that he is standing in one of the main streams of Christian opinion. St Thomas Aquinas held that a poor man may steal a loaf of bread to feed his family. It is more wrong that they should starve, and that no one should extend charity."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/andrewbrown/2009/dec/22/religion-christianity

 

[Joab]

HIT THE RTM BUTTON AND LET THE STAFF DEAL WITH IT!!!!!!!!!!

Where is this "RTM" button your supposed to hit to report abuse? I haven't seen it.

 

[Tez3]

Interesting...I just checked the current open ticket section and closed ticket section in the mod area, and I have not found 1 reported post from this thread. See this is what I, and the rest of the staff, find ourselves repeatedly saying....if you or anyone else, finds a post, no matter who it was made by, offensive, HIT THE RTM BUTTON AND LET THE STAFF DEAL WITH IT!!!!!!!!!! Amazing how people get offended at something, complain in thread, never report it, then, instead of 1 person getting in trouble, we now have 2, because the 2nd person had to fire back, rather than letting the mods deal with it.

As I said in another thread, regarding MMA. Its not that all MMAists are bad, just a select few, that ruin it for the rest. Same thing here. For what its worth, I dont think that the OP was targetting every English person.

Oh well....back to the thread.

It's not offensive, it's annoying and it's not posted up as an insult it's posted as an opinion which is genuinely held so the best way to challenge that opinion is to post up not whinge I don't like it. It would be whinging and making me a whinger if I merely RTMd every post I didn't like wouldn't it?

 

[Tez3]

Where is this "RTM" button your supposed to hit to report abuse? I haven't seen it.

Red triangle with exclamation mark (?) in the top right corner of posts.

 

[Joab]

Heres an interesting editorial. I don't know anything about Christian arguments but this quote is interesting. it seems this stealing argument is not a new one.
"But the important thing is that he is standing in one of the main streams of Christian opinion. St Thomas Aquinas held that a poor man may steal a loaf of bread to feed his family. It is more wrong that they should starve, and that no one should extend charity."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/andrewbrown/2009/dec/22/religion-christianity

If it came to starving to death or stealing, than yes, a case could be made that stealing is less wrong than dying of starvation. That does not mean "Thou shalt not steal" is a guideline, it only means that given the choice, stealing is less of a moral offense than allowing someone to die of starvation. I doubt very much that there are very many in the USA or Great Britain who shoplift do so because they are on the brink of dying any moment if they don't steal that food.

 

[MJS]

It's not offensive, it's annoying and it's not posted up as an insult it's posted as an opinion which is genuinely held so the best way to challenge that opinion is to post up not whinge I don't like it. It would be whinging and making me a whinger if I merely RTMd every post I didn't like wouldn't it?

I'm not crazy about some opinions that I read either, so I suppose its a matter of just dealing with them or countering in a civil way, not accusing someone of something. If a statement is found to be flawed, provide evidence that backs it up.

As for the RTM...no, simply disagreeing with someone isn't cause to hit it. I think we all know what falls into that category.

 

[MJS]

If it came to starving to death or stealing, than yes, a case could be made that stealing is less wrong than dying of starvation. That does not mean "Thou shalt not steal" is a guideline, it only means that given the choice, stealing is less of a moral offense than allowing someone to die of starvation. I doubt very much that there are very many in the USA or Great Britain who shoplift do so because they are on the brink of dying any moment if they don't steal that food.

Still doesn't make it right though, if there are other options available. Are there no food banks in the UK? I honestly dont know, so I'm asking. In todays world, with everyone reaching out to help everyone else, I find it hard to believe that there is nothing else to do but steal.

 

[Joab]

Still doesn't make it right though, if there are other options available. Are there no food banks in the UK? I honestly dont know, so I'm asking. In todays world, with everyone reaching out to help everyone else, I find it hard to believe that there is nothing else to do but steal.

Of course it doesn't make it right, I merely wrote stealing to prevent starvation is less of a moral offense than allowing someone to starve to death. I also wrote that I doubted very many who steal are really on the brink of starvation in either Great Britain or the USA.

 

[Tez3]

If it came to starving to death or stealing, than yes, a case could be made that stealing is less wrong than dying of starvation. That does not mean "Thou shalt not steal" is a guideline, it only means that given the choice, stealing is less of a moral offense than allowing someone to die of starvation. I doubt very much that there are very many in the USA or Great Britain who shoplift do so because they are on the brink of dying any moment if they don't steal that food.

You'd be surprised how many are without enough food.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...th-caring-disabled-children-inquest-told.html

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2005/09/19/exclusive-gran-starves-to-death-115875-16147092/


http://www.oxfam.org.uk/resources/ukpoverty/morepovertyfacts.html

"How is poverty calculated?

Poverty is calculated as 60% of median income after housing costs. This is a measure of poverty used by most researchers, the EU and the UK government. In 2005/6, the 60% threshold was worth:

• 108 per week for single adult with no dependent children;
• 186 per week for a couple with no dependent children;
• 223 per week for a single adult with two dependent children;
• £301 per week for a couple with two dependent children "

What does poverty in the UK mean in practice?

"Material poverty
Poverty means not having enough money to pay for the things you need. From Oxfam’s experience of working with people living in poverty we know that this may involve families and individuals not having enough to eat, being unable to heat their homes, not having adequate warm clothing, and not having enough money to cope with unforeseen events, such as the need to repair a broken washing machince.
The 2004/5 Family Resources Survey, published by the Department for Work and Pension, reports that: 60% of people on low incomes say they are unable to make savings of £10 a month;10% cannot afford two pairs of all-weather shoes for each adult in the family; 30% cannot afford household contents insurance; and nearly 30% are unable to have friends or family round for a meal once a months. "

 

[Ken Morgan]

Gee I don’t know where to start!!

Part of me wants to talk about all the other commandments no one talks about, and thus ignores. We all know there’s more then 10, but a commandment about sheep rearing is just not much fun.

TEZ, Sorry Hun, you know my loyalties; I don’t see any Brit bashing going on. Go get some sleep at the first chance you get, OK?

Oh if we are putting a price on no more Brit bashing? I want some Flakes, Dairy Milks, and maybe some 99’s brought over please, and thank you!

More seriously? There is only one way to deal with poverty folks and that’s good jobs. But we in the west, the US, Canada the UK and many other places have exported all our good jobs to China, India, and Brazil. Our companies still show great profits, but our people, our middle class is eroding at a terrible rate.

As I and others have said before, if you are legitimately starving, it’s forgivable if you steal, however when I see people buying smokes and booze before food or warm clothing for their kids, I just want to smack them to the side of their collective heads.

 

[Joab]

Tez, I know there are a substantial number of people living in poverty, I merely wrote that I doubt very many people who steal are on the brink of starvation in either the USA or Great Britain. I lived not long ago in a poor area of Virginia, I helped build a self help center for those in poverty in the area that included a food bank, food pantry, and low cost thrift store. If anyone had a need and couldn't afford anything in the store it was given to them, and food was always given for free. It was my church that built and ran it.

Ken Morgan is of course right that the need really is for jobs that pay a living wage. It has been said that the most effective charity in the world is business, as business provides the jobs that bring about sustainable incomes for people more than anything else.

 

[Archangel M]

After many years of arresting thieves, taking reports for thievery and recovering quite a bit of "thieved" property I can recall quite clearly the number people I dealt with who were stealing out of necessity....NONE!!! They steal for kicks, they steal for dope, they steal for business or they steal simply because they want something.

And if I ever do come across someone stealing for necessity, they will have my complete sympathy and understanding as I transport them to the station for booking.

On the topic of human imperfection and the clergy..so..what..we just stop thinking that people should live up to what is expected of them? In that case I have some corruption I would like to go take part in. We hold certain people and professions to a higher standard for a reason.

As to "Brit bashing". Lighten up. I seem to recall being lectured about commenting on "American Bashing" a while ago and received little sympathy. Just because it may be a European pastime doesn't make us any less sensitive. What's good for the goose and all.

 

[Tez3]

Aha, funny you should mention chocolate and Cadburys! the founders of the company were the very best kind of people, Quakers who do a huge amount to alleviate suffering and poverty. it's one reason why we don't want the company taken over.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bournville

Another chocolate company also run by Quakers which is still working for good is Rowntrees.

http://www.jrf.org.uk/workhttp://www.jrct.org.uk/

 

[Tez3]

After many years of arresting thieves, taking reports for thievery and recovering quite a bit of "thieved" property I can recall quite clearly the number people I dealt with who were stealing out of necessity....NONE!!! They steal for kicks, they steal for dope, they steal for business or they steal simply because they want something.

And if I ever do come across someone stealing for necessity, they will have my complete sympathy and understanding as I transport them to the station for booking.

On the topic of human imperfection and the clergy..so..what..we just stop thinking that people should live up to what is expected of them. In that case I have some corruption I would like to go take part in.

As to "Brit bashing". Lighten up. I seem to recall being lectured about commenting on "American Bashing" a while ago and received little sympathy. Just because it may be a European pastime doesn't make us any less sensitive. What's good for the goose and all.

American bashing isn't a European pastime, ignoring America is

 

[Tez3]

Tez, I know there are a substantial number of people living in poverty, I merely wrote that I doubt very many people who steal are on the brink of starvation in either the USA or Great Britain. I lived not long ago in a poor area of Virginia, I helped build a self help center for those in poverty in the area that included a food bank, food pantry, and low cost thrift store. If anyone had a need and couldn't afford anything in the store it was given to them, and food was always given for free. It was my church that built and ran it.

Ken Morgan is of course right that the need really is for jobs that pay a living wage. It has been said that the most effective charity in the world is business, as business provides the jobs that bring about sustainable incomes for people more than anything else.

Many people though won't help they way you and your church have which btw I think is the very best kind of humanitarian thinking and action.

I think many people have not seen beyond the sensationilist headlines, the OP added the comment that 'thou shalt not steal is more of a guideline' it's not a quote from the vicar. the vicar said in a sermon that it's sometimes more acceptable to steal if starving than to mug someone, or turn to drugs or prostitution which of course when people think about it is correct, He hasn't said to go out and steal, he hasn't condoned stealing, he was making a point to make his congregation think about poverty, sin and charity. Your church has already taken on board the mesaage...to go out and help rather than let it get so bad that people steal or worse to eat.

Yes of course there's plenty who steal because they are thieves, criminals etc but this sermon wasn't about that, it was about what is the lesser of many evils, the choices some have to make when down on their luck and in despair, do they steal a tin of soup to eat or do they prostitute their bodies to 'earn' the money for food? It was intended to be a thought provoking sermon but it's been twisted to make it seem as if he is condoning theft.

 

[Tez3]

Gee I don’t know where to start!!

Part of me wants to talk about all the other commandments no one talks about, and thus ignores. We all know there’s more then 10, but a commandment about sheep rearing is just not much fun.

TEZ, Sorry Hun, you know my loyalties; I don’t see any Brit bashing going on. Go get some sleep at the first chance you get, OK?

Oh if we are putting a price on no more Brit bashing? I want some Flakes, Dairy Milks, and maybe some 99’s brought over please, and thank you!

More seriously? There is only one way to deal with poverty folks and that’s good jobs. But we in the west, the US, Canada the UK and many other places have exported all our good jobs to China, India, and Brazil. Our companies still show great profits, but our people, our middle class is eroding at a terrible rate.

As I and others have said before, if you are legitimately starving, it’s forgivable if you steal, however when I see people buying smokes and booze before food or warm clothing for their kids, I just want to smack them to the side of their collective heads.

Will be stood down in a while lol. Can't say what it is but this place looks nice to work at doesn't it?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAF_Menwith_Hill

I find references to English weaknesses etc annoying, no one can deny that comment was made. Why call us weak because of one vicar?

 

[CoryKS]

American bashing isn't a European pastime, ignoring America is

Did you just type that seriously? Who in here has that little icon with the rising BS flag?