British Priest says that "thou shal not steal" is more of a "guideline".

[Archangel M]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091222/ap_on_re_eu/eu_britain_shoplifting_ok

LONDON – For a priest in northern England, the commandment that dictates "thou shalt not steal" isn't exactly written in stone.

The Rev. Tim Jones caused an uproar by telling his congregation that it is sometimes acceptable for desperate people to shoplift — as long as they do it at large national chain stores, rather than small, family businesses.

Causing quite a stir.

 

[Sukerkin]

Cake or Death? :lol:

Individual C of E clergy are ever good at finding ways to incite thought and provoke reactions on social issues.

 

[mook jong man]

No thanks , look what happened to the last people that shoplifted over there.


They got a one way trip to Australia.

 

[K-man]

No thanks , look what happened to the last people that shoplifted over there.


They got a one way trip to Australia.

Thank God for that, otherwise I would probably be a Pom.

Seriously though, how bloody stupid can someone be? Who does he think owns the big chains? It's the Mum and Dad investors or their superannuation companies in the main.
I ran small retail businesses for many years and handed every shoplifter that I caught (probably about 5%) over to the police. They were the pits in my opinion. Thieving parasites. Nothing stolen was essential for life, just stuff they didn't want to pay for!!

 

[grydth]

Well, one can only give thanks in this holiday season that all of the nutty clergymen are over in the UK, and that we haven't any religious nuts in the USA. None. Not a one .:angel:

This fellow has untapped comedic potential..... we could use his (divinely inspired, of course) new editions of the remainder of the Ten Commandments.

 

[Ken Morgan]

Lets be honest, stealing an Ipod because you don't want to pay is a great deal different then stealing a loaf of bread, (ie, Les Misérables), because you can't pay.

Yes, social programs, welfare, family, etc, etc all aside...

but if it ever came down to seeing my children go hungry or stealing in order to feed them, I'm stealing and doing whatever I have to to put food on the table.

 

[5-0 Kenpo]

Lets be honest, stealing an Ipod because you don't want to pay is a great deal different then stealing a loaf of bread, (ie, Les Misérables), because you can't pay.

Yes, social programs, welfare, family, etc, etc all aside...

but if it ever came down to seeing my children go hungry or stealing in order to feed them, I'm stealing and doing whatever I have to to put food on the table.

That's fine, and understandable.

But taking Biblical Commandments and saying things like this are incompatible.

 

[Ken Morgan]

That's fine, and understandable.

But taking Biblical Commandments and saying things like this are incompatible.

Using the New testament, the Old testament, and/or the Koran as a point of reference to justify various unsavory actions, has been occurring for millennium. That he referenced the bible at all, should be irrelevant to the argument. What he said is no better or worse simply because of his point of reference.

I can equally reference Ayn Rand or Charles Dickens to justify other actions one may find disturbing. That I didn’t use religious text doesn’t make the arguments any more or less valid.

 

[Archangel M]

Using the New testament, the Old testament, and/or the Koran as a point of reference to justify various unsavory actions, has been occurring for millennium. That he referenced the bible at all, should be irrelevant to the argument. What he said is no better or worse simply because of his point of reference.

I can equally reference Ayn Rand or Charles Dickens to justify other actions one may find disturbing. That I didn’t use religious text doesn’t make the arguments any more or less valid.

Difference being..you are not a priest.

 

[Senjojutsu]

One again this must be a modern English cultural weakness thing, a further example of the decline of the once-mighty British Empire.
:rules:

Back over here across the pond the most famous of our Christian preachers actually follow all of The Ten Commandments religiously.

Okay, maybe nine out of the ten religiously – with that adultery one – well nine out of ten ain’t bad folks.

Me, I always think about Mel Brooks’ parody of playing Moses coming down from the mountain with three tablets shouting he has FIFTEEN COMMANDMENTS – unfortunately he drops one of the tablets shattering it against a rock – and then Moses proclaims TEN…. TEN COMMANDMENTS!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TAtRCJIqnk

So what were the other five ?????


Now regarding this priest - I choose to quote the famous French author François-Anatole Thibault (1844-1924) that the law, "in its majestic equality, forbids the rich, as well as the poor, to sleep under the bridges, to beg in the streets and to steal bread."

 

[Ken Morgan]

Difference being..you are not a priest.

Ah but for the internet and $25, I can be!!

 

[celtic_crippler]

Priests are human too. They interpret things based on their unique perspectives... they have opinions.

When you place a person on a pedestal, regardless of the reason, they will ultimately let you down. Why? Because they're just as flawed as you are.

I realize people are looking to this fellow for ethical guidance, so isn't the real issue here that some feel that stealing is wrong regardless of the circumstances and some feel that it can sometimes be justified.

I would think that those who feel it is sometimes justified would likely support this priest. Those that do not, should find another church to go to perhaps.

Oh, and BTW... we Americans have absolutely no grounds to point fingers at other countries religious leaders and cry "fowl". ... glass houses being what they are and all. :uhohh:

 

[CoryKS]

Wasn't the C of E formed basically because somebody wanted divorce to be "more of a guideline"?

Not to equate the two, obviously. Just pointing out that they have a long-held... "bendiness", if you will, regarding established moral policy.

 

[Tez3]

Here we go again. find something a newspaper and bash the Brits again.
York is just down the road from me, the north of England has some appalling poverty, the steel mills closed, the big manufacturers closed, the pits closed all thanks to the Conservatives. You may think this is a welfare state and everything provided on a plate but I'm afraid you'd be wrong. This chap was interviewed on our local television the other night all he was saying was that if times are so desparate...and for some they are... steaking a can of beans ( and thats a direct quote) to feed your children or keep yourself alive is forgivable.
We are having built here a centre for homeless ex service people to get them back on the raod to recovery, one man I know is going into the unit, he was in Northern Ireland when his best mates brains were splattered all over him after being shot, he was in the Falklands in some of the bloodiest fighting, he was in the Balkans digging up massed graves and now because of PTSD can no longer work or cope in society, he lives on the streets at the moment, it's people like him that this vicar is thinking of when he says it's forgivable to sleat to keep yourself alive. Of course if the Christian thinking people got off their backsides to help people like him, stealing wouldn't have to be an option would it? A family in Newcastle who's mum is bedridden with MS survives because the children look after her, do the housework, cooking etc as well as trying to go to school, the only money coming in is a small disablilty allowance of £95 pr week to buy food and clothes for three people, no the social services don't help, and all they get otherwise is their rent paid.

I know hundreds of stories like this, of people who are struggling to cope, this vicar isn't saying it's right to steal, he's saying it's understandable if they do and it's forgivable.

I never thought I'd be defending a vicar but really folks get off your high horses and have a look at the situations he was talking about, see what he means and for crying out loud be more charitable then normally honest decent people trying to survive wouldn't have to bloody steal.

Where's your compassion and understanding? Instead this chap who is on the front line fighting poverty is subjected to ridicule and scorn, really people, I thought better of you.


What he said
"The Rev. Tim Jones, 41, told his congregation at St. Lawrence Church in York, England, during a sermon Sunday it is better for the poor to turn to shoplifting than "prostitution, mugging or burglary,
My advice, as a Christian priest, is to shoplift. I do not offer such advice because I think that stealing is a good thing, or because I think it is harmless, for it is neither," he said."

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Tez, were you reading the same thread as I just did? Because I don't find -any- "Brit Bashing" here. Or is this a "I'm having a bad day and going to swing at the slightes misread"?

Just because it's a story about someone in the UK, doesn't mean it's a bash. Or does "bash" mean something different in England than in America? I see a couple of light sarcastic comments that only a uber-thin-skinned person running a hair trigger on a bad day would take as a "bash". The last bash fest was handled by site staff, yourself and a few other members promptly.

Lighten up already.

Was the article a mis quote? Then correct it with reliable evidence.

This is a world wide forum, if you want us to ban all discussion of all things British, we will need the following.
- 100 Million Pounds.
- Signed photos of all 11 actors to play Dr. Who.
- Lifetime supply of Jelly Babies
- A functional Dalek or TARDIS, or baring that, a fully functional Challenger.
- and a date with Ewan McGreggor for my wife.
Otherwise, expect some are going to disagree, going to post such, and you won't like some of it.

 

[CoryKS]

FWIW, I don't necessarily disagree with the priest. It is irrational for a starving person to fail to procure food for themselves by whatever means they can just because it's against the rules. It's also irrational for such a person to need a green-light from a priest for such endeavors.

He qualified his statements appropriately. But one could see how his statements might be used by some to justify grabbing a few five-fingered discounts. Some people define "needy" more broadly than others, particularly when it comes to their own wants or needs.

 

[MJS]

In the end, it's the working people, that'll pay the price for those that steal something. Hey, times are rough here in the US, but to take something because times are tough? Sorry disagree. So, perhaps I can walk into the bank with a gun, and take some cash....because times are rough. Thats a bunch of BS.

There are many other outlets to provide aid for people that're having a rough time. Perhaps they should use those sources before resorting to stealing. And before anyone starts crying foul...this goes for people in the article and people here in the US. Dont want to be accused of playing favs.

 

[Tez3]

Tez, were you reading the same thread as I just did? Because I don't find -any- "Brit Bashing" here. Or is this a "I'm having a bad day and going to swing at the slightes misread"?

Just because it's a story about someone in the UK, doesn't mean it's a bash. Or does "bash" mean something different in England than in America? I see a couple of light sarcastic comments that only a uber-thin-skinned person running a hair trigger on a bad day would take as a "bash". The last bash fest was handled by site staff, yourself and a few other members promptly.

Lighten up already.

Was the article a mis quote? Then correct it with reliable evidence.

This is a world wide forum, if you want us to ban all discussion of all things British, we will need the following.
- 100 Million Pounds.
- Signed photos of all 11 actors to play Dr. Who.
- Lifetime supply of Jelly Babies
- A functional Dalek or TARDIS, or baring that, a fully functional Challenger.
- and a date with Ewan McGreggor for my wife.
Otherwise, expect some are going to disagree, going to post such, and you won't like some of it.

"One again this must be a modern English cultural weakness thing, a further example of the decline of the once-mighty British Empire."
:rules:


It didn't read as mildly sarcastic I'm afraid. I don't want to ban discussion of things British, in fact I'd like to encourage more of it! However I don't understand why the actions of one person mean that everyone in a country is labelled the same? Why do people do that. One vicar says something and already it's why the British empire declined and the Brits are degenerate! C'mon it's not me thats needs to lighten up! Just comment on the guy, not equate it to the country.

Yep I'm running on adrenaline at the moment, no sleep for 48 hours as we are dealing with a crisis and yes I'm cranky but things like the quote above don't come over well unless some indication is given it's meant to be funny. A smiley would do, otherwise it looks and sounds like a serious comment.
Bash one man by all means and as long as it's the vicar not the Bishop it's fine (thats a rude English joke).

I can do the jelly babies and the Challenger ( we have a few parked up the road) well I can get you a ride on one anyway lol! Several of my students are tankies.
I can get you a Dalek head that you put on and it changes your voice.

 

[CoryKS]

There are many other outlets to provide aid for people that're having a rough time. Perhaps they should use those sources before resorting to stealing. And before anyone starts crying foul...this goes for people in the article and people here in the US. Dont want to be accused of playing favs.

That's the thing that gets me. In the last few years, I've noticed a huge increase in the presence of charity drives. My son's school does food drives all the time. After the cashier at the supermarket rings up my items, they ask if I want to add a dollar to X charity. Outside, the Salvation Army bells ring. Off to the book store, they want to know if I would like to purchase a book to donate to needy children. My company does a United Way drive every year, the participation in which is "voluntary", then there's Toys for Tots and Adopt a Family and ad infinitum. No to mention taxes going toward relief agencies, and now we have a Congress full of d-bags telling us to pay our "fair share". With the amount of money being thrown at the problem through voluntary and mandatory contributions, there theoretically should be no reason why someone should have to resort to theft. Where the hell is all this money going? I suspect that most of it goes in the pockets of the charity providers.

 

[Joab]

What the Bishop should be advocating is acts of charity so people won't get so desperate they believe there is no other option than to steal. It is never acceptable to steal, it certainly can be forgiven and it certainly can be understandable if someone is about to starve to death, but I have found there are always other ways. Calling the commandment "thou shalt not steal" a guideline is absurd, it is a commandment, not a guideline.