Breaking Structure

[K-man]

A very good example of a top Aikido guy's ability to break his partner's structure to enable an effortless takedown.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

At 1.32,

- A's left hand grabs on B's right wrist.
- B rotates his right hand clockwise and puts pressure on A's left wrist.

There is nothing that B can do to prevent A from letting go A's own left hand grip. Why does A just let go his own left grip?

IMO, A should grab B's wrist with his own "tiger mouth (between thumb and index finger)" facing to himself instead of facing to his opponent. This way, B cannot turn his right hand clockwise because B will have to fight against A's 4 fingers instead of just fight against A's thumb (1 finger). Of course B can rotate his right hand counter-clockwise and still deal with A's thumb. But this will open B's own center line and allow A's left arm to move into B's front door (space between B's both arms).

IMO, if you want to use your left hand to grab on your opponent's right wrist, the following grib is better.

 

[K-man]

At 1.32,

- A's left hand grabs on B's right wrist.
- B rotates his right hand clockwise and puts pressure on A's left wrist.

There is nothing that B can do to prevent A from letting go A's own left hand grip. Why does A just let go his own left grip?

I think you have missed the whole point of the exercise. Aikido is all about breaking structure. Training from gripping is part of that. If you are grabbing for someone's wrist and they move your instinct is to follow. To grab and control there is tension in the arm and that tension goes right through the body allowing the break in structure. If there was, say, a knife in the hand you would be trying to hang on and in doing so you would lose your balance with that combined movement of the turn of the wrist and the lifting of the arm.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If you are grabbing for someone's wrist and they move your instinct is to follow. To grab and control there is tension in the arm and that tension goes right through the body allowing the break in structure.

You still have not answered "why A won't let go his own grip" yet. Since your "wrist grip" doesn't really control your opponent's arm (his elbow joint is still free), it's a "temporary" grip. Why do you want to hang on your "temporary" grip for?

I know it's just for training purpose. But it still have to make sense and you can't assume that your opponent will "hang on his own grip" without any good purpose.

If you try to date a girl but she says no, will you still try to mess with that girl, or will you let go that girl and find other girl instead? You have control on your own well. the girl has no control on you.

 

[K-man]

I think you miss the subtlety of it. When a girl says no, sometimes she means maybe. You have to read the body language. You have to read the body language in martial arts also. It is not all ... "fist meets face". When you reach to grab someone's arm you are trying to grab their arm. You don't suddenly let go because it is your intent to grab and control. You are actually being led. In this exercise you know ahead of time what is happening so sure, you could let go, but that defeats the purpose of the exercise which is learning how to break the structure.

 

[Hanzou]

Any examples available outside of demonstration format?

 

[Tony Dismukes]

The instructor's body mechanics are excellent. The issue I have with the demonstration is the reaction of the uke to tori's movements. The extreme disruption of uke's structure and balance only occurs because uke has learned to act the part of a completely incompetent attacker for demonstration purposes.

In a more realistic scenario, if a competent opponent grabs your wrist and you apply this sort of movement to disrupt his balance and structure he will likely respond by either

a) adjusting his grip and body position to regain his own structure and attack yours or, failing that,
b) release the grip and transition to a different grip or strike or disengage completely and reset before attacking again.

Hand fighting would be so much easier if my opponents just held on to their grips for dear life without making any effort to maintain their structure.

None of this is to question the instructor's skill. As I said, his body mechanics are excellent and the underlying concepts are sound. It's just that the actual application will look completely different against an opponent with any actual ability to be dangerous.

 

[K-man]

The instructor's body mechanics are excellent. The issue I have with the demonstration is the reaction of the uke to tori's movements. The extreme disruption of uke's structure and balance only occurs because uke has learned to act the part of a completely incompetent attacker for demonstration purposes.

I think that what we have is a guy bending over backwards, literally, to do what he thinks his teacher wants him to do. It looks bad to outsiders who are looking for a martial application in a training technique.

In a more realistic scenario, if a competent opponent grabs your wrist and you apply this sort of movement to disrupt his balance and structure he will likely respond by either

a) adjusting his grip and body position to regain his own structure and attack yours or, failing that,
b) release the grip and transition to a different grip or strike or disengage completely and reset before attacking again.

In reality neither of those will occur. The demonstration is done slowly so you think that is the case. At normal speed two things happen. You don't have time to adjust a grip because the hand is actually coming up as maybe a back fist strike to the face. Secondly, the person trying to grab the wrist has made the decision to catch the wrist and as such will chase the wrist whether he has hold or not. If he removes the hand to block the strike the takedown will still occur, so disengaging at that point really is not an option.

Hand fighting would be so much easier if my opponents just held on to their grips for dear life without making any effort to maintain their structure.

Yes but any fight would be a breeze if people fought the way the basics are trained.

None of this is to question the instructor's skill. As I said, his body mechanics are excellent and the underlying concepts are sound. It's just that the actual application will look completely different against an opponent with any actual ability to be dangerous.

The martial application comes about when there is a reason to hold as I pointed out in post #3 where there might be a knife. I posted this in the Aikido area because it is an Aikido video but the principle applies across the board. The exact same move occurs in karate when the hand returns to carriage with the palm up. Of course in that situation it is you gripping, not being gripped. A similar breaking of structure occurs in any CQ martial art when you move to the side controlling your opponent's elbow. A similar scooping move will break the opponent's structure.

 

[K-man]

Any examples available outside of demonstration format?

Sure, I'm sure there are thousands. Why don't you go off and see if you can find some?

 

[Brian King]

I really like Ikeda Sensei's work. Top martial artist, honest student (i.e. gets on the mat at open seminars and trains like a white belt) and is a VERY good person. Very polite classy guy.

Regards
Brian King

 

[hoshin1600]

K man I respect you as a martial artist and in many cases I agree with but on this i dont. you have made a couple of typical aiki mantra comments about the actions and reactions of the uke. How the uke will follow the hand or wrist ect...
I agree with tony. Tori can break ukes structure because the uke is acting in a pre prescribed fashion that is unrealistic.
In aiki the tori or nage is learning to move in a particular way but the uke is also learning how to respond in a particular way. the actions to break the structure will be very different without a trained and compliant uke.
My debate here would start with ukes intent. In aiki the intent applied is often the grab itself but in reality the grab is not the intent but rather to...move you pull you take away somthing you are holding, find the striking distance, ect. If you add a true intent then ukes actions will be very different thus in many cases rendering tori techniques usless.
I Understanding that sometimes we need to practice a simplified version of action in order to learn the core. However aiki requires both tori and uke to exist. Without uke aiki is not aiki. You and I have both done aiki and other arts. I have found I cannot do aiki on/with karateka. Yes a I can do a wrist controll or a takedown but it is not true aiki. So how do you rectify this and make it work on someone who is not an akidoka and is not going to comply or behave in a way that is unpredictable.

 

[K-man]

IMO, if you want to use your left hand to grab on your opponent's right wrist, the following grib is better.

Why? What is the context? The first grip makes perfect sense if you want to apply a sankyo lock, the second perhaps if you were thinking of kote gaeshi. But the fact is, neither grip is secure. We train gripping so we understand how to escape from grips. In the video the grip is part of the training exercise to demonstrate how to break your partner's structure.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

neither grip is secure.

If can be secure if you use double wrist control, use your opponent's one arm to jam his other arm, at the same time you press his both arms against his own body.

Most of the time, the "wrist control" is a "temporary control". Since it's "temporary", you should not commit on it, you should be able to "change" along with your opponent's respond.

In the following clip, the

- wrist control is the 1st set up,
- elbow control is the 2nd set up,
- face punch is the final goal.

b) release the grip and transition to a different grip or ...

Agree! To assume that A will hang on his own wrist grip will not be realistic. Here is another example. It's double wrist grips but the same concept can also be applied on single wrist grip.

 

[hoshin1600]

That's my main point. The "wrist control" is a "temporary control". Since it's "temporary", you should not commit on it, you should be able to "change" along with your opponent's respond.

In the following clip, the

- wrist control is the 1st set up,
- elbow control is the 2nd set up,
- face punch is the final goal.

Agree! To assume that A will hang on his own wrist grip will not be realistic. Here is another example. It's double wrist grips but the same concept can also be applied on single wrist grip.

i understand the first clip you posted but as you said the face punch is the final goal in your scenario, however in other instances the goal is to break the joint or to control the person, not to punch. in many circumstances you cannot or do not want to strike, like law enforcement you are not allowed to strike.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

i understand the first clip you posted but as you said the face punch is the final goal in your scenario, however in other instances the goal is to break the joint or to control the person, not to punch. in many circumstances you cannot or do not want to strike, like law enforcement you are not allowed to strike.

Agree that the "grappling art solution" is much more civilized than the "striking art solution".

When you give your opponent a

- "bear hug", he may become your best friend.
- "face punch", he may become your worst enemy.

 

[K-man]

If can be secure if you use double wrist control, use your opponent's one arm to jam his other arm, at the same time you press his both arms against his own body.

Most of the time, the "wrist control" is a "temporary control". Since it's "temporary", you should not commit on it, you should be able to "change" along with your opponent's respond.

In the following clip, the

- wrist control is the 1st set up,
- elbow control is the 2nd set up,
- face punch is the final goal.

Agree! To assume that A will hang on his own wrist grip will not be realistic. Here is another example. It's double wrist grips but the same concept can also be applied on single wrist grip.

I don't think you understand that this is an Aikido training exercise. Can I ask just how much Aikido have you studied? We train against grips every session and I can tell you a single hand grip like you posted will not stop anyone trained in even the most basic Aikido. I teach my Krav students how to trap hands and I can promise you that in a life and death situation as you would have with a knife, your grips would see you dead. Ask any of the RBSD guys like Brian VC or knife guys like Rich Parsons if they would grab a wrist like that if someone had a knife.

As to grabbing a wrist and transferring to control the elbow, why would you bother gripping like that? I teach to control without gripping, at least until you are in a position to apply a lock or arm bar. The grips in your videos do nothing to break structure and the second video is a perfect example of how to get a shin kick to the groin.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I don't think you understand that this is an Aikido training exercise. Can I ask just how much Aikido have you studied? We train against grips every session and I can tell you a single hand grip like you posted will not stop anyone trained in even the most basic Aikido. I teach my Krav students how to trap hands and I can promise you that in a life and death situation as you would have with a knife, your grips would see you dead. Ask any of the RBSD guys like Brian VC or knife guys like Rich Parsons if they would grab a wrist like that if someone had a knife.

As to grabbing a wrist and transferring to control the elbow, why would you bother gripping like that? I teach to control without gripping, at least until you are in a position to apply a lock or arm bar. The grips in your videos do nothing to break structure and the second video is a perfect example of how to get a shin kick to the groin.

I know it's Aikido training exercise. Since I know nothing about Aikido, I ask why Aikido uses this kind of training method. I'm very interested in "wrist grip" and it doesn't matter which MA style that "wrist grip" may come from.

As far as why anyone wants to grab his opponent's wrist? One answer can be, "He tries to turn a striking game into a grappling game ASAP".

Both clips that I put up has nothing to do with "break structure". As far as the groin kick, it won't be easy after the "wrist grip" has been obtained. A quick "shaking" can be used to interrupt your opponent's groin kick.

If you want to keep this discussion within the Aikido boundary, what I have described may not fit into that boundary. If you think this thread has been "sidetracted" and don't intend to discuss any further, I can understand.

 

[K-man]

K man I respect you as a martial artist and in many cases I agree with but on this i dont. you have made a couple of typical aiki mantra comments about the actions and reactions of the uke. How the uke will follow the hand or wrist ect...
I agree with tony. Tori can break ukes structure because the uke is acting in a pre prescribed fashion that is unrealistic.
In aiki the tori or nage is learning to move in a particular way but the uke is also learning how to respond in a particular way. the actions to break the structure will be very different without a trained and compliant uke.

Thank you for your insight. It is purely an exercise to train the breaking of a structure, in this case, certainly with a compliant uke. Much of our training could be termed 'unrealistic' but there is generally method behind the madness. Before starting Aikido my opinions were similar to yours. In fact I would never have started if I hadn`t found a teacher who could make his techniques work. I can assure you that the technique shown in the OP video does work against non-compliant partners although in the martial application it is not done slowly like that.

My debate here would start with ukes intent. In aiki the intent applied is often the grab itself but in reality the grab is not the intent but rather to...move you pull you take away somthing you are holding, find the striking distance, ect. If you add a true intent then ukes actions will be very different thus in many cases rendering tori techniques usless.

I have found very few Aikidoka who are effective in what they do. There are many reasons for that, mainly because they never test their techniques. Without testing against total resistance you don't get to be effective as the difference between success and failure is minuscule. So where I agree with the main thrust of your post, I would suggest that those who have good training will be able to make their techniques work under pressure.

I Understanding that sometimes we need to practice a simplified version of action in order to learn the core. However aiki requires both tori and uke to exist. Without uke aiki is not aiki. You and I have both done aiki and other arts. I have found I cannot do aiki on/with karateka. Yes a I can do a wrist controll or a takedown but it is not true aiki. So how do you rectify this and make it work on someone who is not an akidoka and is not going to comply or behave in a way that is unpredictable.

I test my techniques regularly against my Karate and Krav students and they do work. Mind you, it took me about six years to get to that level of proficiency and that is on top of a significant MA background. Every so often I get to teach some Aikido classes. I don't teach the usual way but from the perspective of ... "how do make you techniques work in real life?"

 

[K-man]

If you want to keep this discussion within the Aikido boundary, what I have described may not fit into that boundary. If you think this thread has been "sidetracted" and don't intend to discuss any further, I can understand.

Mate, I don't mind discussing it in another context but bear in mind that the training methodology in Aikido is quite different to other martial arts. Learning to receive is contrary to most other training but it is the basis for starting to reverse techniques. Sticky hands from Kung fu is the closest analogy I can envisage. In sticky hands you are not resisting your partner yet you end up in a controlling position. We can discuss this outside the Aikido framework. That's fine, but in that situation if we could discuss it without reference back to the Aikido training method it would make it more relevant to all other training styles.

Further down the track I may have the opportunity to describe how I have applied the same principles to my other training.

Please continue to put you view. It makes me look at what I do with a critical eye.

 

[Jenna]

eeek! K-Man!! I cannot see the video where I am though there are some comment I wanted to post and but I cannot get past this here!!

I think you miss the subtlety of it. When a girl says no, sometimes she means maybe. You have to read the body language.

I know what you mean and I am not on your case and I bet any thing your good wife would agree with me if you ask her and you have a wink emoji so I know you are not so serious!! and but there are maybe some young men or boys who would read this and not understand..

WHEN SHE SAYS NO.. NO MEANS NO!!!!!!!!!!! IT IS BLACK AND WHITE!!!!! THERE IS NO QUESTION IT IS NOT A MATTER OF INTERPRETATION!!!!

Is a good thread only cannot let that go unsaid for who ever might stumble here some time read this! Anyways.. friends Jxxx