Boy banned from playground because of disability

[hardheadjarhead]

Well, y'all gotta know I'd have something to say about this. (Takes deep breath)

Bravo, Shesulsa.

Did ya'll catch that? The woman knows of what she speaks.



Regards,


Steve

 

[shesulsa]

The more I'm reading, the more I'm tilting towards the notion that the parents are a big chunk of the problem. Some of the details seem to indicate that the school has bent over backwards for this kid--and the parents just don't like the decisions, and aren't terribly respectful of the other kids and parents. Particularly, what's the claptrap about home schooling, but bringing the kid to recess "for his socialization?" This strikes me as something that can ONLY cause problems...kids take long enough to accept newcomers anyway, and a weird kid who just gets dropped off to play with them...not gonna work.

Bent over backwards for the kid? By removing his support? Oh, PLEASE tell me how this can be true. And if I was this kid's parent and the school removed all of his special needs support WHICH HE IS ENTITLED TO BY LAW, BY THE WAY, you bet your hoo-hah I wouldn't like the school's decision.

When you have a kid like this and you invent some terrific way to address his socialization needs, then I might consider your opinion a little more seriously.

As to the kid being accepted, this has a lot to do with the supervision - didya get that? the adult supervision and education of the other children, the example led by adults, and the *oh, let's scream it from the mountains because it's what America is all about* tolerance of those who are different which is taught by parents and teachers and society in general.

 

[shesulsa]

Bravo, Shesulsa.

Did ya'll catch that? The woman knows of what she speaks.

Regards,

Steve

Steve, :asian:. Thank you.

 

[rmcrobertson]

OK, it's on.

They didn't remove his support--they first tried to put him in a regular classroom, which is the whole point of mainstreaming. Second, when the parents insisted on homeschooling, the school STILL went with what sounds goofy to me--if I read you right, bringing him in for recess alone.

You've shown no evidence that the school refused to help this kid--only that there's a problem, and that (as I originally posted) BOTH parties tried to do the best they possibly could with it. But schools only have so much money, and so many resources (as I originally posted) and they have other kids, too, to help.

So, maybe a) help me out here: IS there evidence that Asperger's kids turn violent like this? b) detail how the school failed to try to support the kid, because I've seen no sign of that as yet; c) explain just what sort of homeschooling the parents did (how do we know it's not THEIR fault?), d) explain what you'd suggest the school should do...unless, of course, it's whatever the parents tell them to do.

I'd also be interested in knowing precisely how you expect each and every public school to find the money for each and every special needs kid, without taking it away from some other kid's education.

And if you're gonna jump down my throat, well, screw it. I have ideas about Shakespeare, too, and I never hung out with the man.

If the school let the kid down, of course the parents should scream. You haven't explained how that's true.

 

[Feisty Mouse]

I think any parent with a special-needs kid is going to have a different perspective on a situation like this than, say, I would, as a young woman who is not a mom, and the most I have to do is worry about myself and my dog.

I don't know about the background to the newsstory - I read it and was confused as to why the parents selected to do certain things, but I have no idea what was happening and why they chose to do the things that they did.

 

[shesulsa]

OK, it's on.

They didn't remove his support--they first tried to put him in a regular classroom, which is the whole point of mainstreaming.

He wasn't mainstreamed in the first place and they tried to place him in a regular classroom without support. You obviously don't know how this works, so...please let me educate you. Mainstreaming a special needs child requires first, for it to be a viable solution for the child - this child was successful within a special education environment which includes the kind of support he needs such as a picture schedule, social stories, sensory motivators and secondary reinforcers. These cannot be used consistently in a regular elementary classroom without at least a full-time aid and consultation. When you remove these supports from a child with a disorder that requires absolute predictability and assistance, plopping him down at a desk in a regular classroom just won't fit the bill. Incidentally, plopping him down at a desk in a regular classroom IS removing his support system.

Second, when the parents insisted on homeschooling, the school STILL went with what sounds goofy to me--if I read you right, bringing him in for recess alone.

Too bad for you it sounds goofy - like I said before, come up with another way for this kid to interact with normal kids so he can emulate normal behavior, and I'll consider you as a serious challenger.

You've shown no evidence that the school refused to help this kid

Excuse me? THEY WANTED TO PLACE HIM IN A REGULAR CLASS WHEN HE HAS SPECIAL NEEDS - THAT IS REFUSING SERVICE - GAWD!! Any proof beyond that would require submitting his confidential record to you which I cannot and would never do anyway.

--only that there's a problem, and that (as I originally posted) BOTH parties tried to do the best they possibly could with it.

Glad you think so.

But schools only have so much money, and so many resources (as I originally posted) and they have other kids, too, to help.

Yah - one of them being this kid. He qualifies and is legally entitled to what he was already receiving. If you want to follow our legal detention system and purge the lesser-need kids from the special education system as they purge lesser-crime offenders from jail and prison, run for your local school board.

So, maybe a) help me out here: IS there evidence that Asperger's kids turn violent like this?

Not all aspergers patients manifest behavior in the same way - that is one of the most frustrating and confounding things about the autism spectrum disorders. But many of them do, yes. Actually, most "normal" children find out how to interact with each other through trial and error and most children will hit, kick, swear at, punch, bite, shove or otherwise harm other children while going through the learning process. But these kids are developmentally delayed, so they will take much longer to progress from these stages and they often revisit old behaviors under periods of stress and flux. It's also much easier to send up a red flag about violent behavior in a child who is different than a child who is not obviously affected. Most kids are allowed to work this out over time and exposure - but...not this kid.

b) detail how the school failed to try to support the kid, because I've seen no sign of that as yet;

See my notation above about refusing services.

c) explain just what sort of homeschooling the parents did (how do we know it's not THEIR fault?),

Please, do you think I live with them? That's like me asking you to explain who was on the playground that day.

d) explain what you'd suggest the school should do...unless, of course, it's whatever the parents tell them to do.

I am suggesting that the school return this boy to the program he was already in - you know - the one that was working??? Special education situation with pull-out specialists, partial and supervised inclusion and Asperger-specific support.

I'd also be interested in knowing precisely how you expect each and every public school to find the money for each and every special needs kid, without taking it away from some other kid's education.

This would be a good topic for another thread - but I can give you a few suggestions right now, if you insist. Cap administrative salary raises like they cap teacher salaries. When a teacher has been found unfit to teach, fire them instead of shuffling them into an administrative position created just so that they have something to do (it happens in my school district according to very reliable sources). More money is spent in legal fees fighting to deny services to children in need than is spent ON children in need. There's more, but let's save it for another thread.

And if you're gonna jump down my throat, well, try this one on: maybe having to work so hard to take care of and raise a child with similar issues is just a little corrosive of one's objectivity with regard to other cases.

Well, that's getting personal and unnecessary. I admit I do tend to be passionate about these kinds of topics - perhaps because others are so passionate about apathy and ignorance.

If the school let the kid down, of course the parents should scream. You haven't explained how that's true.

Again, see the above about removing his support system.

 

[rmcrobertson]

1. I edited--your post struck me as striking me, with very good reason, and I reacted.

2. How do you know that the "special needs," class was in fact working? What assessment process was used to put him there in the first place? What was the reason for the school's attempting to "mainstream," him?

3. If they homeschooled, what sort of support--or special training--did the parents bring to bear? Was it as good as the school offered?

4. What precisely is the scientific/clinical support for the notion that bringing the kid into recess only would be of value?

If you have no answers to these questions, then really, your assessment isn't any better than mine. It certainly wouldn't entitle you to claim special knowledge on account of your background, any more than I'd be entitled to say that because I've been a teacher for quite some time and I don't belive that you have, you have no idea of what issues are involved.

It is terrifically expensive for schools to provide every kid with the education they are absolutely, unequivocally entitled to. (Yes, Phil, if you're reading--entitled, by the fact that we live in a society not some survivalist hallucination of a state of nature.) It is quite appropriate for a school to wonder where the hell the money's coming from.

And no, chopping administrator raises and dumping idiot teachers (both of which, let me assure you, I know more than a little about) will not foot the bill, whatever the likes of George Bush tell us.

 

[shesulsa]

2. How do you know that the "special needs," class was in fact working? What assessment process was used to put him there in the first place? What was the reason for the school's attempting to "mainstream," him?

How do you know it wasn't? The assessment process is, again, part of confidential records and you, as a teacher, would know that. What was the reason for the school's attempt? Don't know - why don't you ask the school?

3. If they homeschooled, what sort of support--or special training--did the parents bring to bear? Was it as good as the school offered?

Given that most districts will hire "specialists" based on their having taken a specialized class or two and having a pulse (this coming from a specialist inside the school system), and since the parents of special needs kids have to be highly educated in therapies for their kids' challenges as well as the nuances of the disorders, it was most likely at least as good.

4. What precisely is the scientific/clinical support for the notion that bringing the kid into recess only would be of value?

Why don't you go to www.autism.org and find out for yourself?

If you have no answers to these questions, then really, your assessment isn't any better than mine. It certainly wouldn't entitle you to claim special knowledge on account of your background, any more than I'd be entitled to say that because I've been a teacher for quite some time and I don't belive that you have, you have no idea of what issues are involved.

That means that you as a teacher are just as unqualified to make the same assessments as I, the mother, sister, wife and daughter of people on the spectrum.

It is terrifically expensive for schools to provide every kid with the education they are absolutely, unequivocally entitled to.

Yes it is. It is even more expensive to care for these people as adults because they did not receive early intervention services. Now, would you, my liberal friend (I'm one too, relax), rather spend $100,000 on early interventions for a child or $50,000 per year on full-time caregivers for them once they become adults? Easy math, in my opinion.

And no, chopping administrator raises and dumping idiot teachers (both of which, let me assure you, I know more than a little about) will not foot the bill, whatever the likes of George Bush tell us.

Again, this topic is not to discuss sources of funding - we all know the government spends funds in ways we would all like to see change. I'm not indicating that these are the only things that need to be changed in order to fund this, that's why I said there are many things that would have to be changed...please see my specific language in my prior post.

 

[rmcrobertson]

In other words, you have no solid grounds on which to base your claim that the school is at fault here, just as I would have to solid grounds on which to conclude that the kid and family are.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Actually Robert, having read through this a bit, I think the school is at fault.

Kid has special needs. This has been determined by trained professionals.
The parents wnated to keep him in an enviroment that was working and controled, and the school wanted to put him in a new enviroment, which was less controled.

The proofs there. In addition, you and I can go read a few books on the subject, but neither one of us deals with the situation on a daily basis. She-Sulsa does. She's the expert in this case, and I think better qualified than any of the rest of us to understand that situation. I defer to her wisdom here.

 

[shesulsa]

I am honored by your post, Mr. Hubbard and thank you very much. :asian:

 

[shesulsa]

In other words, you have no solid grounds on which to base your claim that the school is at fault here, just as I would have to solid grounds on which to conclude that the kid and family are.

In the words of the school district, the child was doing so well with the original special education support system established for him they thought he could do fine in a regular classroom. This boy's special ed assistance program WORKED SO WELL that he was actually undiagnosable, so they decided (don't ask me how, because I don't understand this idiotic course of reasoning) that he would do fine WITHOUT the support system - the school admitted this to the media when they said they didn't think he needed special eduation anymore, then iterated that the boy needed a psychological evaluation (flip-flop). Wipe your glasses off and read the article again, please.

Further, if the parents/guardians of the child do not approve of the IEP, the school can enforce it anyway through due process and hearings. How do I know that? Because I have to face this possibility every year and anytime an ammendment is made to my son's IEP, I get a copy of the procedural safeguards for my district. I could wallpaper my house with them. Actually, I think I might have a few copies left over - would you like one?

So - given that the school admitted that they removed a working system for the boy and denied services, one can logically conclude that the downfall of this boy's development and disintigration of his behavior IS INDEED THE FAULT OF THE SCHOOL. This is reinforced when one studies the behavioral manifestations of Asperger Syndrome and the other Autism Spectrum Disorders.

And as personal as you want to get and as much as you refuse to answer MY questions and as much as you want to twist this around into the semantics you seem to require to feel superior around here, your argument just isn't going to cut it unless you can come with the following:

1. "Solid Evidence" that removing the services from a special needs child is ever warranted when the established modalities are working.

2. "Solid Evidence" that social integration is not required for the further social development of ASD children.

3. A viable alternative to recess integration for the social development challenges of homeschooled ASD children.

4. An apology for intimating that you are superior to me in your understanding of this disorder, the school system that addresses the needs of people with this disorder, the behavioral manifesations of ASD, because you are clearly none of these things.

If you want to debate this topic with me any further, get your ducks in a row, because I haven't even pulled out the big guns yet.

 

[JPR]

Oh dear! I feel compelled to reply at the risk of angering everyone.

First, I extend my deep admiration and respect to shesulsa. Anyone dealing with such a challenge in a child’s life deserves respect and (from my belief) prayer. They are sacrificing more and showing more unconditional love than most of us ever will.

Second, our “discussion” points out the true problem to me. We are discussing who is right and wrong as if it is a dichotomy. When to me, at this point, every adult is wrong. Why? Because the needs of the children are not being met! In my first post I simply put on my “school board hat” to give a perspective from that angle. It isn’t the final answer, it is simply where prudence demands me to start.

When facing such an issue as this I like to look at needs instead of current actions, because we all mis-act at times. So try this for a needs assessment (not and exhaustive one mind you, but just a quick attempt to hit some high important needs):

1. The child in question (Jan) needs deeply to learn to deal with his challenges. He needs to be with and interact with other children in a positive way. He doesn’t need to be isolated, for if you isolate him as a child how will he ever function as an adult.
2. The children on the playground need Jan so that they can learn to appreciate / value different people. They will also learn a lot of other useful lessons including; compassion, patients, social skills in dealing with difficult people, and sharing.
3. Jan’s parents need help with their child so that he will learn to deal with his challenge. To do this they need to work better with the system. Now before you stone me, I do understand how difficult that can be. I work for the federal government and have to endure all measure of asinine things almost daily. It is enough to drive you mad, and would be even more infuriating if you were trying to deal with the needs of your child. Working better with the system isn’t, by the way, caving in either. You have to hold out for what you require, but be flexible and creative in getting there. Easy to say, hard to do.
4. The other children’s parents need to be guaranteed that their children are safe (a great myth here is that anyone can truly guarantee safety to anyone) and that there are processes / procedures in place to make this work.
5. The teachers need to be trained and supported (by the school, other children’s parents, and Jan’s parents). Nothing is more frightening than to be in charge of a situation for which you have not been trained and where you know that everyone is going to line up to blame you for what ever just went wrong.
6. The administration also has needs. They need to understand the cost and liability impact of the situation. They also need to understand the goal of the situation.
7. But on top of all of this, each person / group needs to spend a whole lot more time trying to understand the needs of everyone else and working toward a solution that meets or exceeds all of those needs. If you focus on the need more than the method (how the need is met), you will succeed.

In the end, every adult needs to stop acting out, and focus on a way to make this work for the best of the children. Assigning blame and drawing antagonistic lines doesn’t really help Jan.

Solving problems this way isn’t a fun process. It is difficult, tedious, maddening, stressful work, but it is possible. The results are beautiful. I know, I have been a part of it.

JPR

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Well said.

 

[FUZZYJ692000]

I find this article very interesting and hitting home. I have come to realize that many parents with children with disabilities would much rather home school their children because they feel that the public schools don't provide enough support and/or attention to their child for them to fully develope to the best of their abilities. however, most families especially today can't afford to really survive with only 1 parent working, especially with a special needs child that needs therapy, medications, and other things that may help them to have a productive function in society, either on their own or with some help.

with that said it is hard for parents to home school their children cause they can not take that time off of work. i have a 30 cousin, that has the mentality of a 6 yr. old. he went through the public school system, because his parents were part of the lower economic status and couldn't afford not to work. needless to say the school system really did fail him. there are unfortunately a lack of qualified teachers that specialize in special needs children thus this doesn't only hurt the child but later when they are adults and unable to take care of themselves many become wards of the state thus, everyone else has to pay for them. i have seen people take such advantage of my cousin, for instance he is a very hard worker, i've seen him cut wood all day and the person gave him $20 and a pack of cigarettes. he doesn't understand the concept of money because these things weren't explained to him in a way he could understand. the school system requested that my aunt take him out of school when he was 10 because they were not equiped to handle his "type". mind you this school was a little backwoods school, but unfortunately my aunt and uncle are not well educated themselves and didn't have that extra help to find programs that could help them.

i don't think anyone can throughly understand how "disabled" a child is and how much potential they have except for the parents. one of the things that a child gets from home schooling is that he was getting that individual attention instead of 2 teachers trying to teach 10 children with disabilites, that's very difficult for that student to get the attention needed. however home schooling doesn't supply the social interactions that these kids will eventually need to make it in society. they need to learn that fighting is not accepted, that you can't just go up and touch someone because it's inappropriate, they need to know that spitting on people is bad hygenie, that throwing a tantrum is not accepted, that talking to people is good, and so forth.

i also believe that the school system should educate the other students in the school. i have seen some pretty mean things done from those so called "normal" students and how they can purposely trip some handicaped kid and then have a group of people laughing at him and so forth. these kids are suppose to be the ones that are there to pretty much be role models in behavior to these kids with disabilities. there are a lot of things in the school system that need to be changed when it comes to children with special needs.

we can't just cast these kids aside and tell them they can't have social interaction, this is primitive and that's going back to throwing people with disabilities into mental hospitals and throwing away the key so they are no long societies problems. i just thought that we've evolved from those primitive thoughts, apparently some haven't.

shesulsa, thank you for taking the time in educating us. i'm always eager to learn new things and you have so much passion and fire. we need more people like you willing to fight for those who's voices are least heard. preach on :asian:

 

[FUZZYJ692000]

Oh dear! I feel compelled to reply at the risk of angering everyone.

First, I extend my deep admiration and respect to shesulsa. Anyone dealing with such a challenge in a child’s life deserves respect and (from my belief) prayer. They are sacrificing more and showing more unconditional love than most of us ever will.

Second, our “discussion” points out the true problem to me. We are discussing who is right and wrong as if it is a dichotomy. When to me, at this point, every adult is wrong. Why? Because the needs of the children are not being met! In my first post I simply put on my “school board hat” to give a perspective from that angle. It isn’t the final answer, it is simply where prudence demands me to start.

When facing such an issue as this I like to look at needs instead of current actions, because we all mis-act at times. So try this for a needs assessment (not and exhaustive one mind you, but just a quick attempt to hit some high important needs):

1. The child in question (Jan) needs deeply to learn to deal with his challenges. He needs to be with and interact with other children in a positive way. He doesn’t need to be isolated, for if you isolate him as a child how will he ever function as an adult.
2. The children on the playground need Jan so that they can learn to appreciate / value different people. They will also learn a lot of other useful lessons including; compassion, patients, social skills in dealing with difficult people, and sharing.
3. Jan’s parents need help with their child so that he will learn to deal with his challenge. To do this they need to work better with the system. Now before you stone me, I do understand how difficult that can be. I work for the federal government and have to endure all measure of asinine things almost daily. It is enough to drive you mad, and would be even more infuriating if you were trying to deal with the needs of your child. Working better with the system isn’t, by the way, caving in either. You have to hold out for what you require, but be flexible and creative in getting there. Easy to say, hard to do.
4. The other children’s parents need to be guaranteed that their children are safe (a great myth here is that anyone can truly guarantee safety to anyone) and that there are processes / procedures in place to make this work.
5. The teachers need to be trained and supported (by the school, other children’s parents, and Jan’s parents). Nothing is more frightening than to be in charge of a situation for which you have not been trained and where you know that everyone is going to line up to blame you for what ever just went wrong.
6. The administration also has needs. They need to understand the cost and liability impact of the situation. They also need to understand the goal of the situation.
7. But on top of all of this, each person / group needs to spend a whole lot more time trying to understand the needs of everyone else and working toward a solution that meets or exceeds all of those needs. If you focus on the need more than the method (how the need is met), you will succeed.

In the end, every adult needs to stop acting out, and focus on a way to make this work for the best of the children. Assigning blame and drawing antagonistic lines doesn’t really help Jan.

Solving problems this way isn’t a fun process. It is difficult, tedious, maddening, stressful work, but it is possible. The results are beautiful. I know, I have been a part of it.

JPR

well said, i love it when people are reading my mind and say it better than i could have :asian:

 

[TonyM.]

I have Asperger's and have exibited symptoms since I was three. I am now fifty two. The explaination of Asperger's submitted in the article was the most blatant nonsense I have ever read about it. Most of us exibit ODD like symptoms after we have been harrassed to the breaking point. for me that takes a long time as I score very low on the hostility scale. More than likely the little imbred vermin at the playground had been doing just that.

 

[shesulsa]

JPR - Hurray for your post! I wish I had enough smarts to pull back from the sparring match with rmcrobertson to point out just what you did. I agree that the adults in this situation seem to have to battle it out rather than consider the best thing for the child. And sometimes, when everything seems to be going well, all a parent/teacher needs to do is relax a little and something goes haywire and the child acts out. Thank you so much for pointing out the most important considerations whenever we discuss people who are different!

Fuzzy - thanks for your kind words. I do, however, allow passion to rule me sometimes and it is actually a weakness when allowing arguments to go as far as this one did. I'm learning.

Tony - As I stated before, with all the aspies and auties I've met, the behavioral manifestations just seem to run the gamot. Some respond to stress and flux with OCD traits, some self-stim, some get violent or fight back. And really, isn't that kind of *ahem* normal? Mom would work her crossword puzzles until her eyes crossed and when stress really set in, she'd beat me up. My brother self-medicates with nicotin, illegal drugs, and refuses to bathe for months at a time. My husband has strong proprioceptive needs and can barely stand a gentle touch - very ticklish - and he clams up when facing stress or challenge, then goes into the garage and finds something to fabricate. My son is now in the stage where he'll throw things, scream at people, claim they want to kill him, and hit them. Not fun, but a stage of development. This is where I have to watch for his cues and intervene at just the right second. I can't always catch it because I can't just glue this child to my hip 24/7/365.

 

[rmcrobertson]

OK, I pretty much give up. From what was described, the school thought the kid could do fine in a regular class, and arranged for evaluation and follow-up to make sure. Moreover--and sorry, I really haven't seen any EVIDENCE that this wasn't wise, wasn't justifiable, just invective--I ain't buying the, "recess integration," thing at first glance, but I dunno.

OF COURSE all the statements made about patience, evaluation, testing, support, are absolutely correct in theory and in moral principle. OF COURSE they are. Problem is, nobody wants to pay for it--and these unfounded claims that, "the school REALLY has the money, if they's just stop giving administrators raises and paying teachers so much," aren't enough to change that fact. Taxpayers have made it clear: they DO NOT WANT to pay what it actually costs. To defend that position, they frequently come up with all sorts of alternative explanations and weird plans...charter schools! more computers!! do away with tenure!!! bust the unions!!!! let business advertise and run schools!!!!

Look up Compton College. They got taken over by the State this year, for truly monumental financial chicanery. Granted. Got it. (By the way, the faculty were delighted about the takeover.) Absolutely wrong. But when you look that up, also look up the term, "unfunded mandate."

It looks to me like the school in question here is probably a pretty good school. It looks like they did their best. It looks like there are problems that need to get sorted out.

I haven't seen a shred of solid evidence that they, or the parents, did anything wrong. What I've seen is a report on a hassle; a conundrum.

Actually, what I've seen is a beautiful outline of exactly the sort of contradiction in capitalism that one would expect to find in the sort of ideological support mechanism that education is.

Bobby shaddup now.

 

[Nightingale]

Yanking the support system out from under an Asperger's kid is asking for trouble. Asperger's kids depend on routine. Change the routine, undo all the progress. The school system f-ed up.

~Nightingale