Boxing Vs. Ma-ists

[Carbon]

Saying that mass slows you down is a generalization.

Do you want to know why sprinters take steroids? Because more muslce makes them faster.

The more muscle you have means the harder you can work without getting exhausted physically.

Also, not every body builder lifts for mass. If you say you are a body builder it doesn't mean you have to be Mr.Universe. It just means that you build your body with weights. Having 5% BF just means you are cut and i could be an average 5'10 160 lb body builder and be built but doesn't necessarily mean that I have to be huge.

Its all in the way the bodybuilder chooses to build his body there is no set mass that you have to obtain before you can call yourself a body builder.

 

[7starmantis]

IT seems you guys are contradicting yoursleves here. Most every one of you has posted in other threads that you do martial arts for your own reasons, yet in this thread you are generalizing all MAist. Saying things like, "boxers lift more weights than MAist". How do you know how much weight lifting I or my training partner does? How do you now how much joe blow the boxer does? We are consistantly yelling about sterotypes, yet you guys are creating your own ones right here.

Let me address some of the statements...

First of all, boxers are on the average much better conditioned.

I train with guys in my school who have as low as 5% body fat, is that less conditioned than boxers? Again, these sterotypes are dangerous to make.

Boxers have what some may consider a "limited" arsenal, but it is very formidable one. These guys and gals drill these punches constantly (i.e. bag work and shadow boxing), and of course use them against uncooperative opposition. Their muscle memory and reflexes are better because they don't have to think about what to do - heck, there isn't much to choose from, right? Also, don't forget that outside of the ring a trained boxer will elbow, head-butt, and bite. These tactics are banned from organized boxing but they do exist and boxers know how to execute when necessary.

This is the exact reason I am against so much cross training. I study only 7 star praying mantis kung fu, and so I have what you refer to as a "limited arsenal", but believe me, its not limited!!

Also, when they are sparring, they are sparring against guys or gals who don't even know how to throw punch correctly, and have terrible footwork and body movement. Like the Korean martial arts master in the movie "Remo Williams" said: "They move like a pregnant baboon with a club foot."

I spar against my sifu and advanced students. My sigung can punch with his fingers right through a stop sign. I haven't seen many boxers that can do that. I'm just saying, I can take the punches, they can deffinatly deal them out. I'm not training with people who do not know how to punch. I think its true what people have said that you must compare the training of each fighter. If the boxer trains extensivly, pair him with a MAist who trains just as extensivly. Because you or your friends don't train everyday, doesn't mean there aren't other MA like me who do. As to the argument that boxers have better hands, well, in the mantis system we work extensivly on our hands, I would like to see a boxer that could feel, or move, or strike with the effortless power that my Sifu can. I have yet to see one come close. I've seen my sigung split my Sifu's lip in half by a wrist extension of about 2 inches. I think the trained MAist has much more of an advantage because we train in multiple situations. The boxer has no idea how to yield out of a lock or trap.


JMHO
7sm

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by Kenpo_student



Have to agree with Kirk here. I have friends who box and they are in the ring pounding on each other 4-5 days a week. On the other hand my dojo only has sparring 2 nights a week.:asian:

Then a MAist from your dojo would not fair well against a boxer, but I am at my school 6 days a week, one of which is nothing but workign through the circuit boxing room. It has been said that a MA couldn't take a punch from a boxer, isn't the point to NOT take the punch?


7sm

 

[J-kid]

Cross training is great, Depends on how you do it as well, THe way i cross train is take a great standing art like JKD and Muay tia and conbine it with Judo Jujutsu to get a awsome fighting art, if you cross train you will be ready for anything and be able to target someones weaknesses, Cross training is a great tool for the fighter who wishs to be well rounded.

 

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by 7starmantis

It has been said that a MA couldn't take a punch from a boxer, isn't the point to NOT take the punch?
7sm

Yes. Exactly.

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by Judo-kid

Cross training is great, Depends on how you do it as well, THe way i cross train is take a great standing art like JKD and Muay tia and conbine it with Judo Jujutsu to get a awsome fighting art, if you cross train you will be ready for anything and be able to target someones weaknesses, Cross training is a great tool for the fighter who wishs to be well rounded.

True, but if you master your art, there is no need to supliment. Depending on the art of course.

7sm

 

[Zujitsuka]

Of course the point is to not get hit, but things don't usually go as planned. Most attacks are started with a sucker punch or a similar tactic. No one advises you to prepare to defend yourself.

If you're in a fight, you can expect to get hit. Especially when dealing with multiple attackers. Hopefully you would have had enough hard-contact sparring to know how to roll with a punch and not to totally freak out or freeze-up when hit.

When it comes to cross-training, I say go for it. However, others may disagree. Hey, the issue of cross-training is a personal issue and would should go with their gut. If you feel that your art has everything that YOU want, well then don't cross train. If you want to experience different ranges and forms of combat, cross-training is essential.

***We all can learn from other systems/ways, etc.***

Like the founder of the McDonald's franchise, Ray Krock said:

"When you're green you can grow. Once you think you're ripe, all you can do is rot."

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by Zujitsuka

Of course the point is to not get hit, but things don't usually go as planned. Most attacks are started with a sucker punch or a similar tactic. No one advises you to prepare to defend yourself.

We aren't talking about sucker punches or the initial attack, we are talking about sparring and the punches (plural) that are thrown there. If you can take punches throughout the sparring match like boxers do. I think that MAist are trained to end the fight so quickly that the conditioning of being able to take multiple mutiple punches is a little moot.

I respect every MAist regardless of their style, I just don't believe that some styles need supliments to them, they are pretty much complete as they are. I'm not sayign one is "better" than the other, just different.


7sm

 

[Zujitsuka]

7starmantis, I truly respect your passion about the martial arts but I feel that your opinions are being made on your experiences in your school. Remember, we're talking about most martial artists - not real tough guys like us

Most martial artists (not you or your school) cannot end fights quickly because they are not sparring full contact and are lacking in the mental toughness department. "Most don't know how to close the show."

Most martial artists that I've met practice martial arts for solely recreational and fitness purposes - not self defense. They can fight no better than someone who practices yoga, tae bo, or aerobics.

I agree with you that no style is better than any other style, but some martial artists are just better than other martial artists. Style has very little to do with it.

Respectfully,

 

[Carbon]

Body Fat has nothing to do with conditioning.

Conditioning means do you wake up every morning and run 7 miles?

This is the workout of a boxer. Its his life, you may say that oh ya MA is my life too but I can then ask how do you make your money?

Teaching? Ya there are boxing trainers but its alot different. There maybe a very expierienced teacher and there are probably alot of knowledgeable ones.

But alot of MA teachers lacked the ability to compete and make money because its not easy.

You say your sifu can effortlessly generate power? Are you saying that your sifu is the only person in the world who trains at 7 star praying mantis?

Really when you say limited? How many actual punches or strikes are in your system?

Jab,Cross,Uppercut,Hook are there really any other punches thrown in boxing that are legal?

Comparing the 2 do you only have 4 strikes in your system?

I also guarentee you lack the training to take on a serious boxer who trains for a living.

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by Carbon

Body Fat has nothing to do with conditioning.

Actually from a medical standpoint it is a great judge of conditioning. No it doesn't mean you can get out and run 10 miles at 4 min a piece, but it does show some type of conditioning for the body. I mentioned it because it was said that boxers have low body fat ratio.

Originally posted by Carbon
Conditioning means do you wake up every morning and run 7 miles?

You got me there, I only do 5 in the morning usually. It depends on how I feel actually.

Originally posted by Carbon
This is the workout of a boxer. Its his life, you may say that oh ya MA is my life too but I can then ask how do you make your money?

Once again if you read my post, I was making the point of putting two equally trained atheletes together. I never said I was a pro athlete. If you read my post you will see that in general I agreed with you, but two individuals who train basically the same amount, one a boxer, one a MAist, thats when I think the MAist has the advantage.

Originally posted by Carbon
Teaching? Ya there are boxing trainers but its alot different. There maybe a very expierienced teacher and there are probably alot of knowledgeable ones. But alot of MA teachers lacked the ability to compete and make money because its not easy.

Once again, we aren't speakign of professional boxers against the average soccer mom MAist. Are you saying that only those who compete professionaly can inhance their skill? Thats not true at all.

Originally posted by Carbon
You say your sifu can effortlessly generate power? Are you saying that your sifu is the only person in the world who trains at 7 star praying mantis?

I don't even know what in the world this means? What does throwing effortless punches have to do with being the only person in the world training at 7*pm ? I train, so you know at least there is two of us, right ?

Originally posted by Carbon
Really when you say limited? How many actual punches or strikes are in your system? Jab,Cross,Uppercut,Hook are there really any other punches thrown in boxing that are legal?
Comparing the 2 do you only have 4 strikes in your system?

once again, read my post, I said in the boxing ring, with boxing rules enforced, the boxer had the advantage. Did you actually read my post? I said in a situation where the MAist is free to utalize his/her entire system.

Originally posted by Carbon
I also guarentee you lack the training to take on a serious boxer who trains for a living.

Lets not get wound up and make statments that you have no idea about. You cannot pass judgment on me like that without knowing anything about me, thats a little ridiculous. Plus, I never said I did have the training to take on a serious boxer, I didn't know that was the issue on this thread. I though we were discussing MAist vs Boxing. Lets not stoop to personal attacks because of my opinion.


7sm

 

[Kirk]

Most kickboxers only launch the required 8 kicks per round, then
delve right into punching. That is why they made the minimum 8
kicks per round. Because Boxers were coming in and eating
people up.

Why is this the case then? Both would be the same as far as
conditioning goes. Kickboxers would have a larger arsenal, no?

 

[Marginal]

Kickboxing rules prohibit attacks below the waist. This kinda discourages kicking in general since without the leg kicks etc, it's not too hard to close the distance and render the kicking ineffective. Add to that the restricted knees and elbow attacks, and there's only fists to keep an opponent away in NA kickboxing. (Kinda why a lot of the MMA crowd views NA kickboxing as a joke.)

OTOH, look at other competition formats that aren't restrictive lke Vale Tudo UFC etc. It's served the strikers fairly well all things considered there. You don't see a whole lot of pure boxers walking away with the cash prizes in those events strangely enough.

 

[chufeng]

I boxed for two and one half years...

My brothers boxed for fourteen plus years...

My father coached boxing and taught my brothers and I how to defend ourselves at a very early age (of course, in today's politically correct climate, nothing can be settled with violence...funny thing is that everyone I ever fought in school became a close pal after that.)...My father also taught me that being a nice guy was always better than being a bully...and I was usually a target for bullies until I hit them on the end of their noses (after many attempts at trying to avoid a fight).

My brothers were MUCH better boxers than I ever was...

After 10 months in YiLiQuan training, they couldn't touch me...and I always put a hurt on them...so, I would have to say that a martial artist who UNDERSTANDS the strategy of boxing will certainly have the advantage...but...NEVER underestimate the power that a boxer can deliver...John had a devastating punch and Drew hit so crisply that you didn't feel it until you got up off of the floor.

:asian:
chufeng

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by 7starmantis

IT seems you guys are contradicting yoursleves here. Most every one of you has posted in other threads that you do martial arts for your own reasons, yet in this thread you are generalizing all MAist. Saying things like, "boxers lift more weights than MAist". How do you know how much weight lifting I or my training partner does? How do you now how much joe blow the boxer does? We are consistantly yelling about sterotypes, yet you guys are creating your own ones right here.

Let me address some of the statements...
I spar against my sifu and advanced students. My sigung can punch with his fingers right through a stop sign. I haven't seen many boxers that can do that. I'm just saying, I can take the punches, they can deffinatly deal them out. I'm not training with people who do not know how to punch. I think its true what people have said that you must compare the training of each fighter. If the boxer trains extensivly, pair him with a MAist who trains just as extensivly. Because you or your friends don't train everyday, doesn't mean there aren't other MA like me who do. As to the argument that boxers have better hands, well, in the mantis system we work extensivly on our hands, I would like to see a boxer that could feel, or move, or strike with the effortless power that my Sifu can. I have yet to see one come close. I've seen my sigung split my Sifu's lip in half by a wrist extension of about 2 inches. I think the trained MAist has much more of an advantage because we train in multiple situations. The boxer has no idea how to yield out of a lock or trap.


JMHO
7sm

Nothing wrong on your views against cross-training. I am kinda in the middle. Cross-training is good, but only if you have a solid base. Trying to master one art is effective also.

Boxing having a limited arsenal... So? If you're good at fighting at mid-range, then that would be your strong point and if you're good enough, all you need to know.

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by 7starmantis



True, but if you master your art, there is no need to supliment. Depending on the art of course.

7sm

Very true. But if you're like me, you'll probably mess up at some points and you may need some groundfighting or etc. Notice I said some. Doesn't mean you would master it, as even mastering one art compeltely takes a lifetime nonetheless trying to master two or more. But, if you have a strong knowledge in one art, it wouldn't hurt at all to know some basics of other arts. They may come in handy.

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by Zujitsuka

7starmantis, I truly respect your passion about the martial arts but I feel that your opinions are being made on your experiences in your school. Remember, we're talking about most martial artists - not real tough guys like us

Most martial artists (not you or your school) cannot end fights quickly because they are not sparring full contact and are lacking in the mental toughness department. "Most don't know how to close the show."

Most martial artists that I've met practice martial arts for solely recreational and fitness purposes - not self defense. They can fight no better than someone who practices yoga, tae bo, or aerobics.

I agree with you that no style is better than any other style, but some martial artists are just better than other martial artists. Style has very little to do with it.

Respectfully,

Yeah, in his school, but aren't you also talking out of your school's experience? My experience in Korea was that they DID know how to defend, that's what we trained for. My experience in some dojos in the US weren't all that great. I now teach (not at a dojo) and I think my pupils know how to defend themselves. I have a few relatives, some who are trained (maybe better than I am) and some who are not who I ask to spar with the other adults and the kids. It is unexpected as they do fight differently. Sometimes, I even get in there myself and do something that they wouldn't expect. Of course, nobody kills each other, but pain is inseperable IMO when learning self-defense.

 

[Carbon]

Its unfair to compare someone who trains for a specific type of fighting against someone who is training to be a well rounded fighter.

Since a boxer trains to compete in a ring that has set rules and set limitations on what can be done its unfair to compare him to a MAist who has different rules and different limitations.

Now if you were to put both fighters in the same rules then the boxer would win, now if you let the boxer train to be a well rounded fighter then it comes down who is the better fighter and who is better prepared.

To make judgements about you, I can say that definately you couldn't stand with a serious boxer in the ring. I don't care what you say you couldn't. Unless for the simple fact that you yourself are a very experienced fighter who has had lots of fights.

Even watching amateur fights the people are very sloppy and very undertrained.

Oh and what does it mean when you brag about your sifu is like saying I have a friend who can throw a punch and you wouldn't believe how he threw a punch. Well ya lots of people can throw well exectued punches but it doesn't make them any special then the next person who can throw a well executed punch.

 

[MartialArtist]

Don't forget, I also boxed for many years and still do. Boxing is a great way to get shape and learn self-defense at the same time. Also, using hand skills from in-fighting emphasis arts like wing chun and boxing are useful in many situations, like on wet grass, etc. where kicking or grappling wouldn't be the best choice. Also, most fights are ended with some sort of hand technique, be it a punch or an arm bar to etc.

Ummm... Your BF% has a lot to do with your general health and conditioning. No, you can have a 13% BF and still have really good stamina, but having around a 5% takes exercise and a clean diet.

 

[Carbon]

Being raised right and having good influences in your life can make it quite easy for someone to grow up and have a natural fitness.

I know it takes alot of work to get below 10% BF but alot of boxers don't have 5% body fat. Body builder have 5% bodyfat.

If you look at professional fighters you can see that there isn't huge muscle defintion like in body builders.