Boxing Vs. Ma-ists

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by Kirk




Said best with plagiarism:
Boxers are tough, are used to getting hit, train against unco-operative opponents and hit really hard. Quite frankly, most MArtists don't train that way.

Most martial artists have to pull techniques or someone could
be seriuosly injured or worse which can be habit forming.

A boxer may have less techniques than most martial artists but that allows them to truly master every punch in their
arsenal.
:asian:

I think most MAist are used to getting hit as well. I am, and also used to getting thrown, locked, kicked, backhanded, joint locked, ect. When I train I never spar with an oponant who just goes along with me, it is forcefully against me, not co-oporative.
If you really believe that wouldn't you be studying boxing instead? I think MAist pull some techniques, but not all of them, I certainly don't.


JMHO,
7sm

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by 7starmantis



I think most MAist are used to getting hit as well. I am, and also used to getting thrown, locked, kicked, backhanded, joint locked, ect. When I train I never spar with an oponant who just goes along with me, it is forcefully against me, not co-oporative.
If you really believe that wouldn't you be studying boxing instead? I think MAist pull some techniques, but not all of them, I certainly don't.


JMHO,
7sm

Sparing, from what I've seen is just a glorified game of tag. But
it goes beyond that. Most ma-ists study and train, what 8 - 10
hours a day. What percentage of that is sparring? Boxers,
typically are training as their job. They train 8 - 10 hours a DAY,
typically 7 days a week.

But we've gone way off topic now. If you want to discuss this
more, let's start another thread.

 

[7starmantis]

oh oh oh, yes lets make another thread, I'm very interested in discussing this topic. I see your point about the sparring, but that is asuming the boxer trains all day and the MAist does not. I guess as a rule of thumb more boxers are professional, but still, I think there are MAist who train just as much if not more than boxers do. Would they still have the same disadvantage in your opinion ?


7sm

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by 7starmantis

oh oh oh, yes lets make another thread, I'm very interested in discussing this topic. I see your point about the sparring, but that is asuming the boxer trains all day and the MAist does not. I guess as a rule of thumb more boxers are professional, but still, I think there are MAist who train just as much if not more than boxers do. Would they still have the same disadvantage in your opinion ?


7sm

Upon reading that it may have sounded a little sarcastic, I really didn't mean for it too. I am seriously interested in discussing this topic. just wanted to put that in there!

7sm

 

[Marginal]

I'd think that a boxer wouldn't automatically fare that well against any martial artist from a different style. Few reasons for this:

A typical boxer isn't a pro, and isn't looking to go pro. They aren't going to be training several hours a day etc. They just do it for fitness, fun etc. They may be better used to taking hits, but I don't see how it can be assumed that all boxers are training intensely with the intent of going pro. (Shrug)

Any MA that uses a full contact method of sparring that doens't impose many restrictions will eat that boxer alive presuming similar conditioning and training is applied. (MT, Sanshou etc would have my money in a mixed martial arts style match vs a pure boxer.) The boxer may have better hands, but against leg kicks, sweeps, head kicks, people trained to use elbows and headbutts, and various throws, they're going to have trouble since they don't train for any of that.

That said, I think it's safe to say that any casual MA practitioner going up against one from another style, (or even the same style) who is serious about their conditioning and training is going to be in trouble.

While a lot of styles don't practice with the needed intensity, there's little reason that they cannot except tradition/fear of litigation. (Most of those "deadly" techniques don't seem to be stopping a whole lot of people in Vale Tudo rules competition etc after all.) IMO, it's a shame that so many styles don't feel the need to update the training methods. We've come a long way in the past 300 years. Lotsa shock absorbant padding exists now that was impossible back then, we have better mats etc. Might as well use them...

Personally, I think my TKD training would come along a bit better if we were allowed to spar without the above the belt restrictions. Getting to use sweeps etc, and not only that, but with the joint locks, and the throws that we learn too. (We learn that stuff but it's all seperate and never integrated.) Someone sparring in that environment'd present a far tougher nut to crack than the typical tournament sparring techniques. (Rather than moving to a full contact unrestricted venue like that the main movement seems to be for a retreat to even more stylized non contact traditional sparring)

I honestly don't care about the Olympics or going to Argentena, I'd rather just know how to fight. I do wish that there was a larger movement to encourage this kinda of shift in one of the larger organizations. Like it or not, it's not the techniques as much as the training methods that have given TKD the reputation it has now. Rather than amending the training, the solution seems to be to cross train in at least two other arts. Great temporary solution, but there's no real reason that this has to be the case.... *sigh*

 

[Kirk]

I disagree. I've never met a casual boxer in my life. I've met
plenty (including myself) casual ma-ists. Do you feel that you
could spar a boxer, and take one of his punches in the same way
you can with a fellow TKDist?

 

[Kenpo_student]

Originally posted by Kirk

I disagree. I've never met a casual boxer in my life. I've met
plenty (including myself) casual ma-ists. Do you feel that you
could spar a boxer, and take one of his punches in the same way
you can with a fellow TKDist?

Have to agree with Kirk here. I have friends who box and they are in the ring pounding on each other 4-5 days a week. On the other hand my dojo only has sparring 2 nights a week.:asian:

 

[Kirk]

To plagiarise again (worded so much better than I could):

Most kickboxers only launch the required 8 kicks per round, then
delve right into punching. That is why they made the minimum 8
kicks per round. Because Boxers were coming in and eating
people up. In the stand up game they're near the top of the list
whether you like it or not.

 

[tmanifold]

We pretty much beat that to death over on the western martial arts section. Here is the thread if you want to read it.
http://www.martialtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2098

It got pretty heated so Chulthu locked it. This is a no win argument.

Tony

 

[J-kid]

True that they are only 17 and i am 16 they do all the boxing training and are good at what they do. I win 98% of the time because i also train full contact sparring and cross train alot, Since i am many a grappler i go for the easy take down and pound or submit the guy, This works great on boxers cause they cant do much on the ground, I am starting Muiy tia kickboxing and jkd to go with my Judo/Jujutsu , And i believe this conbo will be great together. But over all boxers are strong fighters and so are most martial artist really depends on what you do. If you sit around class 60% of the time doing katas your not going to be ready to fight a real street fighter/boxer type. But if you are sparring full out and no i dont mean point system, You will be alot deadlyer then a boxer being able to deal punchs /kicks/throws/submissions etc. Because boxers only use punchs this will give you the advanctige knowing what there going to do,. Just my Dime on the subject.

 

[Zujitsuka]

First of all, I'm no expert or tough guy, but here is my opinion based on my expereiences. If you are fortunate enough to be in a martial arts school that has full-contact sparring, consider yourself fortunate because you're receiving a more complete martial education than most other martial artists.

Anyway, I'd go with boxers.

First of all, boxers are on the average much better conditioned.

Boxers have what some may consider a "limited" arsenal, but it is very formidable one. These guys and gals drill these punches constantly (i.e. bag work and shadow boxing), and of course use them against uncooperative opposition. Their muscle memory and reflexes are better because they don't have to think about what to do - heck, there isn't much to choose from, right? Also, don't forget that outside of the ring a trained boxer will elbow, head-butt, and bite. These tactics are banned from organized boxing but they do exist and boxers know how to execute when necessary.

Most martial artists on the other hand, tend to boast about how many techniques they know - jack of all trades, master of none. Sometimes less is more.

Also, when they are sparring, they are sparring against guys or gals who don't even know how to throw punch correctly, and have terrible footwork and body movement. Like the Korean martial arts master in the movie "Remo Williams" said: "They move like a pregnant baboon with a club foot."

If you really want to test your

 

[Rainman]

Originally posted by Kirk

I disagree. I've never met a casual boxer in my life. I've met
plenty (including myself) casual ma-ists. Do you feel that you
could spar a boxer, and take one of his punches in the same way
you can with a fellow TKDist?

Incorrect comparison- Boxing is full contact -compare full contact schools. Sounds to me like you have some issues with your training. You have to fight if you are to call your self an AK practitioner. It is not a game of tag- It is a game of how hard I can tag you and not break you. Move up the ladder and the game continues to change as you work on different material. Do not paint everything and everyone with the same brush.

I'll leave you with this thought... if you can't hit on the move you can't hit. Most people will not stand there and let you bludgen them to death.

 

[Marginal]

Originally posted by Kirk

I disagree. I've never met a casual boxer in my life.

I have. He's now a white belt in the TKD club I go to. Not all boxing students are prize fighters.

I've met
plenty (including myself) casual ma-ists. Do you feel that you
could spar a boxer, and take one of his punches in the same way
you can with a fellow TKDist?

That's not saying a whole lot given ITF sparring rules. (as per the second half of my rant, which I guess wasn't read...)

OTOH, asi I said before, pit that boxer against a MT practitioner or another MA that routinely does full contact (and with things harder than gloves routinely hitting them), and I still don't see why the boxer would have the advantage. (US kickboxing's a different animal with no hits below the belt etc.) They don't have a corner on physical conditioning, or years to get used to being hit hard.

 

[rmcrobertson]

Interestingly, this thread actually has zip to do with "boxing," vs. "martial artists," a debate that I first read in my dad's "Argosy," magazine about 1961. Hey, guess what? The Amercian boxer always beat up the sneaky Japanese guy, which tells you something about the roots of what's wrong with this whole argument.

But more to the point: you're comparing professional fighters and amateurs, really big guys and average men and women, extraordinarily-talented athletes and we mere mortals. The fact that Sugar Ray Leonard would kick my *** in a heartbeat, if I were stupid enough to get into a ring with him, tells us nothing about boxing vs. martial arts. It's apples and oranges. You should be asking what happens if Joe Lewis fights Leonard? what happens if Skipper Mullins in his prime fights Oscar de la Hoya?

I do American kenpo. Rule about #4: don't play to the other guy's strengths.

Thanks,
Robert

 

[muayThaiPerson]

its seriousl image. the boxer does more weight training than the Martial Artist. if the MAist did the same amount, MA will beat boxing in less that second(dont mean that literally)

:asian:

 

[MartialArtist]

It all depends on the person and the amount of effort he puts in.

If he puts two hours in, that's what he'll get.

I was used to early morning wake-ups, train for 4 hours, mind control/meditation which was considered a break, then mind endurance training, full-contact sparring (although we wore some protective covering - gloves, helmet, cup, knee brace as we were trained to hit those areas during sparring), and much more. Much harder than how a normal boxer or as much if not more than a professional boxer.

But don't forget, boxers, although conditioned to get hit, would know the difference between controlled conditions and knuckles. Same with MAists, EVERYONE.

Not a matter of style, but of the person

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by muayThaiPerson

its seriousl image. the boxer does more weight training than the Martial Artist. if the MAist did the same amount, MA will beat boxing in less that second(dont mean that literally)

:asian:

You overestimate strength or mass (powerlifter vs. bodybuilder) vs. fighting skill. How much you spend in a gym does not totally affect your fighting ability although it does help to a point. But none of the great fighters were not very strong compared to powerlifters. Look at Ray, Ali, etc. Even look at Lee who did some powerlifting. Were strong, yes, but super strong? No. Strength does not equal power necessarily. The attributes Ray, Ali, and Lee had in common were that they were poetry in motion, used extensive footwork, were quick, and open.

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson

Interestingly, this thread actually has zip to do with "boxing," vs. "martial artists," a debate that I first read in my dad's "Argosy," magazine about 1961. Hey, guess what? The Amercian boxer always beat up the sneaky Japanese guy, which tells you something about the roots of what's wrong with this whole argument.

But more to the point: you're comparing professional fighters and amateurs, really big guys and average men and women, extraordinarily-talented athletes and we mere mortals. The fact that Sugar Ray Leonard would kick my *** in a heartbeat, if I were stupid enough to get into a ring with him, tells us nothing about boxing vs. martial arts. It's apples and oranges. You should be asking what happens if Joe Lewis fights Leonard? what happens if Skipper Mullins in his prime fights Oscar de la Hoya?

I do American kenpo. Rule about #4: don't play to the other guy's strengths.

Thanks,
Robert

True that they won, not always, but a lot of the times. Guess why... Modified rules. It wasn't fighting but a boxing match. If you look in some articles, the wing chun practitioner, the karateka practitioner, the muay thai practitioner, and the tkd practitioner did come out on top under their rules. I have an article where a boxer challenged some guy in Seoul. The guy never left Korea after that...

No, he didn't die, he stayed there to train

Again, this is just supporting what you said in the way that you can't compare the two. But I wouldn't really say apples and oranges. If comparing the sport aspects of the two, yes, but the combat version, I would say tangerine vs. mandarin.

 

[Carbon]

I think that weight training effects power to an extent.

No being a big body builder doesn't effect every aspect of your fighting ability but it sure as hell can effect your speed and strength and stamina.

I mean look at Billy Blanks. He's a rather big black guy that weight trains and disproved the theory about being big makes you slow. He is by no means slow.

Also I think I saw that they had a Boxer fight a MAist like in the 70's and this was 2 professionals and the boxer was winning at first but then the MAist started doing leg sweeps and there really wasn't anything the boxer could do.

Now if you took a rather well trained boxer and took 6 months to train him in anti-grappling and anti-sweeping techniques then he would probably be able to shutdown a MAist.

Trust me taking a combo from a boxer is quite hard and I doubt the people here have the jaw to take hits.

Also what are the size of gloves we are talking about? 6oz.? 10oz.? 16oz.? Or bare knuckles?

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by Carbon

I think that weight training effects power to an extent.

No being a big body builder doesn't effect every aspect of your fighting ability but it sure as hell can effect your speed and strength and stamina.

I mean look at Billy Blanks. He's a rather big black guy that weight trains and disproved the theory about being big makes you slow. He is by no means slow.

Also I think I saw that they had a Boxer fight a MAist like in the 70's and this was 2 professionals and the boxer was winning at first but then the MAist started doing leg sweeps and there really wasn't anything the boxer could do.

Now if you took a rather well trained boxer and took 6 months to train him in anti-grappling and anti-sweeping techniques then he would probably be able to shutdown a MAist.

Trust me taking a combo from a boxer is quite hard and I doubt the people here have the jaw to take hits.

Also what are the size of gloves we are talking about? 6oz.? 10oz.? 16oz.? Or bare knuckles?

I believe the gloves were 10 oz. or 12 oz. By no means 16 oz.

Billy Blanks is not what people would call a bodybuilder. A bodybuilder would be someone like Dorian Yates, Ronnie Coleman, Lee Priest. And yes, the mass will slow you don't. Plus, since a bodybuilder's goal isn't about strength. Their goals deal with mass, symmetry (which they really can't change naturally), and being at around a 5% BF during competition.

A powerlifter would be a better fighter not regarding skill. The compound movements make their hips better and a lot more explosive. And yes, traditional martial artists did train in compound movements from a movement like the snatch to the power clean. The difference is that they didn't use barbells and bumper plates.

I do agree that defending against combos is hard. But for doing that, you have to think about how the boxer would handle combos as they're most used to the basic combos. But even if you don't box, it is quite possible to defend against boxer combos. William Cheung for one, blocked all the rapid fire combos of an intercontiental boxer I believe. It's the matter of training. If you think everyone fights like your training partner or the people in the area/school/whatever... You have to expect the unexpected in those kinds of situations.