Boxing or American Kickboxing

[pdg]

Did you actually watch the video? Of the three roundhouses (throwing in the Japanese stylist with the front kick was silly - Apples to Oranges...), the Capoeira kick was slower than both the Muay Thai and TKD roundhouses. It did deliver a stronger impact than the MT kick (though since it both traveled at a slower speed and a longer distance, it would seem to be easier to block or evade), but was both far slower and had far less impact than the TKD roundhouse.
So I don't see how it was "weighted" in the manner you describe.

Did you watch the video?

They concluded the capoeira kick was most powerful, even though it was slower and with less force than the tkd kick.

 

[UserC]

Did you watch the video?

They concluded the capoeira kick was most powerful, even though it was slower and with less force than the tkd kick.

No. The TKD kick was the most powerful. They concluded that the Capoeira kick was the most effective relative to speed. I just explained that to the Mod. I also explained why that is BS since the Capoeira kick packs much more body behind it and is terribly uneconomical compared to the TKD kick. And still had less power.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Did you watch the video?

Yes. I've seen it before (more than once) and rewatched it today.

They concluded the capoeira kick was most powerful, even though it was slower and with less force than the tkd kick.

They can say whatever they're paid to say. But since they published both the measured speeds and the measured impact, that doesn't really matter. The conclusion only matters if you're talking about science. Not entertainment.

 

[UserC]

Just as I'm not sure pdg actually watched the video, I'm not at all sure you actually read my post. If you did, you clearly didn't understand it.

I did. My point is that the most troubling part is the sample of 1 kick per practitioner, instead of repeated kicks. This would eliminate randomness within the group.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I did. My point is that the most troubling part is the sample of 1 kick per practitioner, instead of repeated kicks. This would eliminate randomness within the group.

So you're just repeating a point I already explicitly made. Ok.

 

[Buka]

The problem with all those devices is they aren't accurate, they never have been. If you can kick, you know darn well when you throw a corker of a kick. When you hit those measuring devices, any kind of them, some of your best kicks will not register as high as some of your others.

But, they never, at least in my experience, measure a weak kick as anything other than a weak kick. So there is that.

But I love watching fighters hit those things on TV. It's very enjoyable.

 

[UserC]

So you're just repeating a point I already explicitly made. Ok.

I thought you referred to just 1 practitioner as the problem (which of course it is as well)

 

[UserC]

No.
Even if the example is true, a sample size of one is meaningless.
And, further, the person who wins a boxing match isn't always the one who hits harder. You may hit harder, but if I'm slipping, evading, blocking, covering, and you can't land a solid strike, that power doesn't matter.
Assume I hit with only 75% of your power. Or even only 50% of your power. If I hit you cleanly ten times as often, even with less power, who is likely to win? I'll win on points, if nothing else.

It isn't meaningless if the result is polar opposite to what a world class boxer would have. No world class boxer loses to boxing cans ever. They might lose to lesser boxers once in a full moon, but not cans

 

[Tez3]

It isn't meaningless if the result is polar opposite to what a world class boxer would have. No world class boxer loses to boxing cans ever. They might lose to lesser boxers once in a full moon, but not cans

That's amusing in a sort of you don't actually know much sort of way.

 

[UserC]

That's amusing in a sort of you don't actually know much sort of way.

What's amusing is your insistence that boxers aren't the best boxers.

 

[Headhunter]

It isn't meaningless if the result is polar opposite to what a world class boxer would have. No world class boxer loses to boxing cans ever. They might lose to lesser boxers once in a full moon, but not cans

You're a funny guy...maybe you should go have a chat with you're supposed cousin maybe he can teach you something about boxing or fighting in general because you obviously don't have a clue

 

[Tez3]

What's amusing is your insistence that boxers aren't the best boxers.

Ah, Cherie, I never said that at all, it's not even come up in the 'debate'. See, you are now confusing yourself. Everyone knows in style v style arguments, of which we have seen many, the person who insists he and he alone is correct is, invariably, incorrect.

The answer is simple, there's good punchers and there's not so good, the style they do is unimportant. Yes, it really is that simple. who can beat who is also simple, the person who really wants it more will more often win, the person who uses their head more will usually win, the person who can adapt quickly to his/her opponent will usually win, there's a few other thing that will mean someone will win, like having a mismatched opponent or one who will take a dive. All in all whatever the style it will be the best fighter who will win.

 

[pdg]

What's amusing is your insistence that boxers aren't the best boxers.

That's another different argument.

Put a boxer under kickboxing rules and see if he still triumphs.

To make it even more entertaining, put a boxer under the WTF TKD ruleset or in a capoeira match and see what happens.

 

[UserC]

No that's exactly the argument. If some of them punch as well as boxers, they should do well in a boxing match against a boxer.

 

[Dirty Dog]

That's another different argument.

Put a boxer under kickboxing rules and see if he still triumphs.

To make it even more entertaining, put a boxer under the WTF TKD ruleset or in a capoeira match and see what happens.

This can actually be both fun and educational for all involved.
We have a local boxing club that would come to the dojang. We'd pair up their students with ours, and have them go at it. Once under boxing rules, once under our rules (but never those stupid WT rules).
Since we train and use hands, our students consistently did pretty well with 'pure' boxing. The boxing students struggled when kicks were added, but even without much training they could learn to throw a reasonable roundhouse or front snap kick to the body.
The Y put a stop to it, because of liability concerns.

 

[UserC]

This can actually be both fun and educational for all involved.
We have a local boxing club that would come to the dojang. We'd pair up their students with ours, and have them go at it. Once under boxing rules, once under our rules (but never those stupid WT rules).
Since we train and use hands, our students consistently did pretty well with 'pure' boxing. The boxing students struggled when kicks were added, but even without much training they could learn to throw a reasonable roundhouse or front snap kick to the body.
The Y put a stop to it, because of liability concerns.

It's pretty reasonable to expect a boxer to spar kickboxers ahead of style fight to get used to kicks thrown at them. And a Kickboxer is well adviced to spar boxers.

 

[UserC]

Forget Ray Sefo, let's throw in K1 "technician" Ernesto Hoost against a half decent boxer. I mean, Hoost only got outboxed by a wild, swinging Bob Sapp, twice! And Sapp barely threw a kick. I think Sapp threw a few that missed

Need I point out that Bob Sapp is not a boxer?.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Well no. It doesn’t matter if it's Mayweather or a poor version of him. Either one is likely to lose. It doesn’t matter if it's Mike Tyson or a poor version of him, either one is likely to win.

So, you're saying Mayweather loses to a mediocre kickboxer? And a mediocre power boxer wins against an elite kickboxer? I doubt either of those is consistently true.

 

[Tez3]

Forget Ray Sefo, let's throw in K1 "technician" Ernesto Hoost against a half decent boxer. I mean, Hoost only got outboxed by a wild, swinging Bob Sapp, twice! And Sapp barely threw a kick. I think Sapp threw a few that missed

Need I point out that Bob Sapp is not a boxer?.

LOL, you are still looking for 'proof' that kickboxers can't punch aren't you. Well, Bob Sapp isn't a kick boxer either. He was an American footballer then a wrestler. He lost more fights than he won in kickboxing and the first fight against Hoost was controversial, the majority of damage dealt by Sapp to end the fight appeared to be inflicted after the bell, both fights were doctor stoppages. Sapp was supposed to fight a friend of mine ( his pro record is 28 Wins, 10 Losses, 2 Draws, 2x world champion, European champion and 4x British champion plus MMA fights and 8x world champion x8 Ju-Jitsu) but chickened out a couple of days before the fight.

Don't keep coming up with things like this to 'prove' your point, it isn't working. there are poor kick boxers, there's poor boxers, it proves nothing about the styles.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I had MUCH greater experience, they weren't competitors etc.

So, the fighter mattered more than the style. You just made the point.