Board Of Advisors

[MJS]

I came across something interesting and wanted to post for feedback. There was an interesting article in the recent BB magazine, but I also found an article here. Now, I'll start by saying no disrespect intended for any of the mentioned parties, but this brings up the question....does anyone who was present for this promotion, have a Kenpo background? Sincere question, I really don't know.

Again, no disrespect intended, but how does someone who is not ranked in an art, give a promotion to someone who is? See, if nobody on the panel had a Kenpo background, or better yet, a high ranking Kenpo background, wouldn't it make sense to have a Kenpo BOA, consisting of 8th, 9th and 10th degrees, to do things like this, instead of someone from outside the art?

 

[Danjo]

I came across something interesting and wanted to post for feedback. There was an interesting article in the recent BB magazine, but I also found an article here. Now, I'll start by saying no disrespect intended for any of the mentioned parties, but this brings up the question....does anyone who was present for this promotion, have a Kenpo background? Sincere question, I really don't know.

Again, no disrespect intended, but how does someone who is not ranked in an art, give a promotion to someone who is? See, if nobody on the panel had a Kenpo background, or better yet, a high ranking Kenpo background, wouldn't it make sense to have a Kenpo BOA, consisting of 8th, 9th and 10th degrees, to do things like this, instead of someone from outside the art?

Well any BOA in Kenpo would have to be done by each organization. Even in Kajukenbo, it's only Sijo's KSDI that has the BOA. As Prof. Bishop mentioned, there are many other organizations within Kajukenbo that can do what they like.

Look, the KSDI BOA was established to hold a hard line for quality control. It's not saying that other organizations' 8th and 9th promotions are no good, it's just not going to vouch for them unless they go through the process. That way, one will always know that the KSDI seal of approval is worth something and meets Sijo's standards. Anyone from another organization that didn't go through the KSDI BOA, you'll have to evaluate for yourself. Here's a hint though: When it's an organization that has someone going from 7th degree to 9th degree in less than one year, you might want to raise an eyebrow

It doesn't say what Nackord was promoted in exactly, but since he was a student of these two men that promoted him (Joe Lewis and Dr. Gyi) , then it doesn't seem too fishy to me.

 

[ackks10]

Nackord ,Joe Lewis and Dr. Gyi are all good friends, Mr Nackord and myself go way back to the 70's,i know he left the "WKKA" (so did alot of people),
anyway these are good people (i know no one said that they were not)
just wanted to jump in,BTW Mr Nackord gave his cert, back to Joe Palzono
when he left.

Merry christmas,,happy Chanukkah,

 

[KenpoDave]

Well, to steal something else from the Kaju folks...goes something like this...."We're not a if you can afford it, we award it art." I may be wrong, but I'm getting the impression from your post that this guy paid people off, and his skills had nothing to show.

I was there. As I recall, it was not a money thing. People that appeared before the board were considered kenpo "orphans" because they had no current kenpo instructor, either because their teacher had died, retired, changed organizations, whatever. Example, one gentleman I know had been a 2nd dan for 25 years, because his instructor died and he had never been in direct contact with the GM of his system.

What I was told was that each candidate submitted a resume of sorts, giving their original instructor/system, date of their last promotion, and a summary of their participation in kenpo since that time, such as owning, operating schools, teaching on the side, tournament competition, etc. Promotions were based on (not necessarily in this order) age, years participating in martial arts, years participating in kenpo, time in grade, contribution to the art, and whether they were currently actively teaching or studying kenpo.

As I understand it, performance in front of the board was more a formality than an actual test. I also believe that the promotions were given in Kenpo, not any particular style of kenpo. The gentleman I know was promoted from 2nd to 5th (which seems like a leap, unless you take into account that had his American Kenpo teacher lived, he would have likely been promoted every two years. Even in Tracy's, where the time in grade requirement increases with each rank, 2nd to 5th is roughly 12 years.

Anyway, as I said, I was there, and talked to a few people who appeared before the board. While there are plenty of reasons to agree or disagree with the concept, I don't believe that $$$ was the issue.

BTW, George, KenpoJoe was my roommate at the GoE 1999.

 

[KENPOJOE]

i kind of think this was done already, i know a guy who went to LV,(tracys kenpo) and they had a board that you had to go in front off, this was called the orphans of kenpo, and (this is what i was told) they would give you rank after your perform.

Hi Folks!
The board was quite impressive and featured no less than 10-12 grandmasters/founders of various kenpo systems.
As Mr. Elmer stated,he was not there and in my humble opinion, it was one of rarest gatherings of kenpo greats and anyone would have given their eyetooth to demonstrate before that board. Those who did were incredibly fortunate. By the same token, if you did a lackluster performance, that was evident as well.
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE

 

[KENPOJOE]

Hey George,

Question..was this board consisting of high ranking Tracy people or was it one of those soke boards, where we usually see 10 people on the panel, yet only 1, if that, is an actual practicioner of Kenpo?

Hi folks!
The board in question consisted of such kenpo luminaries as:
Larry Tatum,John Mcsweeny,Eric Lee,Richard Lee, Victor Gascon,Al Novak,and several other masters of various kenpo arts. There were at least 10-12 8th-10th degree masters & grandmasters of different kenpo disciplines. It would have been the honor of a lifetime to demonstrate before such a board and those who did had the opportunity of a lifetime.
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE

 

[KENPOJOE]

I was there. As I recall, it was not a money thing. People that appeared before the board were considered kenpo "orphans" because they had no current kenpo instructor, either because their teacher had died, retired, changed organizations, whatever. Example, one gentleman I know had been a 2nd dan for 25 years, because his instructor died and he had never been in direct contact with the GM of his system.

What I was told was that each candidate submitted a resume of sorts, giving their original instructor/system, date of their last promotion, and a summary of their participation in kenpo since that time, such as owning, operating schools, teaching on the side, tournament competition, etc. Promotions were based on (not necessarily in this order) age, years participating in martial arts, years participating in kenpo, time in grade, contribution to the art, and whether they were currently actively teaching or studying kenpo.

As I understand it, performance in front of the board was more a formality than an actual test. I also believe that the promotions were given in Kenpo, not any particular style of kenpo. The gentleman I know was promoted from 2nd to 5th (which seems like a leap, unless you take into account that had his American Kenpo teacher lived, he would have likely been promoted every two years. Even in Tracy's, where the time in grade requirement increases with each rank, 2nd to 5th is roughly 12 years.

Anyway, as I said, I was there, and talked to a few people who appeared before the board. While there are plenty of reasons to agree or disagree with the concept, I don't believe that $$$ was the issue.

BTW, George, KenpoJoe was my roommate at the GoE 1999.

Good post Dave!
I was thouroughly impressed with the demonstration of one particular individual at that test. John Busto of New York. Mr. busto was explosive,dynamic and epitomized the level of proficency required for the rank he tested for at that time. He was literally the talk of the test and a credit to the art of kenpo through his performance.
i'd like to quote a segment from his website:
" In the year 2001, at the second Gathering of the Eagles, I presented my credentials in front of the Yudanshakai (the senior board of Kenpo/Kempo practitioners) that included Al Tracy, Sifu James Ibrao, Al Novak, Larry Tatum, Bart Vale, Ralph Chinnick, Sonny Gascon, John McSweeney, Eric Lee, Richard Lee, and Al Dacascos. The Board recognized my Fifth Degree Black Belt, which I received on May 15, 2000, and they presented me with a certificate that stated so."
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE

 

[Hand Sword]

I'm just curious. As to thoes who test in front of this board, are they members of those particular organizations? If not, why don't they test under their own groups requirements? Especially for Master Level ranks? I mean, how does this all work? Do people show up and test? Under what criteria?

 

[Hand Sword]

Let me explain my reasoning for this. If a particular person is a member of Kenpo "A" and all of the board members are B,C, etc.. All distinct (Lord knows that's argued as truth until keyboards are broken) how do they know if that person knows or is exhibiting his particular material (forms, combos, etc..) up to that systems standards?

Also, if rank is awarded, and they are back within their style, is it recognized? Should it be?

Don't get me wrong, performing before an esteemed panel as that and gaining their eyes and recognition would be remarkable indeed! But, overall, it just doesn't seem right to me. All that seems to be judged are certain attributes that the panel agrees upon, as opposed to specific techniques apart of a particualr style. If that's the case, then rank and styles are made irrrelevant if rank can be attained by an outside group, no matter how esteemed they are. It's just about an appearance?

 

[MJS]

Well any BOA in Kenpo would have to be done by each organization. Even in Kajukenbo, it's only Sijo's KSDI that has the BOA. As Prof. Bishop mentioned, there are many other organizations within Kajukenbo that can do what they like.

Look, the KSDI BOA was established to hold a hard line for quality control. It's not saying that other organizations' 8th and 9th promotions are no good, it's just not going to vouch for them unless they go through the process. That way, one will always know that the KSDI seal of approval is worth something and meets Sijo's standards. Anyone from another organization that didn't go through the KSDI BOA, you'll have to evaluate for yourself. Here's a hint though: When it's an organization that has someone going from 7th degree to 9th degree in less than one year, you might want to raise an eyebrow

It doesn't say what Nackord was promoted in exactly, but since he was a student of these two men that promoted him (Joe Lewis and Dr. Gyi) , then it doesn't seem too fishy to me.

Yes, thats true, it does not say what he was promoted in. My bad for assuming. As for the 7th-9th in less than a year.....:eye-popping:

 

[MJS]

I was there. As I recall, it was not a money thing. People that appeared before the board were considered kenpo "orphans" because they had no current kenpo instructor, either because their teacher had died, retired, changed organizations, whatever. Example, one gentleman I know had been a 2nd dan for 25 years, because his instructor died and he had never been in direct contact with the GM of his system.

What I was told was that each candidate submitted a resume of sorts, giving their original instructor/system, date of their last promotion, and a summary of their participation in kenpo since that time, such as owning, operating schools, teaching on the side, tournament competition, etc. Promotions were based on (not necessarily in this order) age, years participating in martial arts, years participating in kenpo, time in grade, contribution to the art, and whether they were currently actively teaching or studying kenpo.

As I understand it, performance in front of the board was more a formality than an actual test. I also believe that the promotions were given in Kenpo, not any particular style of kenpo. The gentleman I know was promoted from 2nd to 5th (which seems like a leap, unless you take into account that had his American Kenpo teacher lived, he would have likely been promoted every two years. Even in Tracy's, where the time in grade requirement increases with each rank, 2nd to 5th is roughly 12 years.

Anyway, as I said, I was there, and talked to a few people who appeared before the board. While there are plenty of reasons to agree or disagree with the concept, I don't believe that $$$ was the issue.

BTW, George, KenpoJoe was my roommate at the GoE 1999.

Thanks for the reply Dave. For the reasons you mention, that doesn't sound as bad, as say, someone going up for a rank, with the panel consisting of people from outside the Kenpo arts. Of course, I'm sure there're stories of people being part of one org., not getting the promo. that you want, jumping ship and heading over to another org., just so you can get that rank.

 

[MJS]

I'm just curious. As to thoes who test in front of this board, are they members of those particular organizations? If not, why don't they test under their own groups requirements? Especially for Master Level ranks? I mean, how does this all work? Do people show up and test? Under what criteria?

Dave mentioned some of the possible reasons. Although this begs another question....were there no other high ranking inst. that could have taken over for the main Master?

Let me explain my reasoning for this. If a particular person is a member of Kenpo "A" and all of the board members are B,C, etc.. All distinct (Lord knows that's argued as truth until keyboards are broken) how do they know if that person knows or is exhibiting his particular material (forms, combos, etc..) up to that systems standards?

Also, if rank is awarded, and they are back within their style, is it recognized? Should it be?

Don't get me wrong, performing before an esteemed panel as that and gaining their eyes and recognition would be remarkable indeed! But, overall, it just doesn't seem right to me. All that seems to be judged are certain attributes that the panel agrees upon, as opposed to specific techniques apart of a particualr style. If that's the case, then rank and styles are made irrrelevant if rank can be attained by an outside group, no matter how esteemed they are. It's just about an appearance?

Oh I agree, performing in front of some of Kenpos greats is certainly an honor. But you bring up a good question. I mean, I could go in front of some SKK lineage people and do kata. Would it be exactly the way they do it? Maybe, maybe not, but I'm sure they'd know what I was doing. Now, perform that same kata in front of someone from the Parker system....probably have no idea. IMO, the fact that I may be performing with great speed and power, really shouldn't take a backseat to the fact that I could be making mistakes.

 

[Hand Sword]

Exactly! It's like a good showing to some universal attributes is what matters, rather than the knowledge of your style. Each has a certain something that they are looking for and none of it might apply to your particular style. You might just be omitting a ton due to a lack of skill level, but make it "pop" and flow artistically enough, and none would be the wiser, but you got that rank!

I respond to this question not as a sarcastic response, but truly out of curiosity. I heard it go on through the years and always wondered about the workings. Part of what bothered me about all of this is what I've seen numerous times through the years. I saw organization after organization split apart. Let's say that you were a long time student of a particular instructor, and made it to your first or second black belt. Let's also say that you teach. Now, upon the fracture, your instructor leaves, and all of the students stay loyal and go with him. Well, things don't work out well and he goes back to being a lawyer or whatever. You're now stuck high and dry! You are teaching, and you're stuck at a 2nd bb. You don't likely go back to the previous organization, so what do you do? You make "friends" with other seniors from other organizations, go in front of these boards, etc... One thing leads to another, and you gain more rank, even high rank! In the end, you have a bunch of stripes, diplomas with heavy names on them, and some clout. Really though, you have at least a 2nd/3rd degree bb knowledge of a working system. Next thing you're a GM, with your own style, and chain of schools.

 

[KENPOJOE]

I'm just curious. As to thoes who test in front of this board, are they members of those particular organizations? If not, why don't they test under their own groups requirements? Especially for Master Level ranks? I mean, how does this all work? Do people show up and test? Under what criteria?

Hi folks!
Dear Handsword,
The point of the event, in at least Mr. Busto's case, was that his direct instructor,Bart Vale,recomended him for promotion and sat on his board,along with the other masters.
The candidates gave their list of reasons why they decided to test before that board. Normally it was because a given instructor had died, a person was without an organization, etc...
The entire point of such a diversified board was so that at least one person from that person's given lineage could act an "overseer" to crituque that person one a more detailed level.
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE

 

[Hand Sword]

:asian:

Thank you Master Rebelo.

That makes more sense.

 

[KENPOJOE]

Dave mentioned some of the possible reasons. Although this begs another question....were there no other high ranking inst. that could have taken over for the main Master?



Oh I agree, performing in front of some of Kenpos greats is certainly an honor. But you bring up a good question. I mean, I could go in front of some SKK lineage people and do kata. Would it be exactly the way they do it? Maybe, maybe not, but I'm sure they'd know what I was doing. Now, perform that same kata in front of someone from the Parker system....probably have no idea. IMO, the fact that I may be performing with great speed and power, really shouldn't take a backseat to the fact that I could be making mistakes.

Hi folks!
Dear Mike,
The point of the kajukenbo board as well as the GOTE board is that SOMEONE would be doing YOUR system as a barometer for effectively crituquing what you were doing within the confines of your given kenpo style, as well as the other individuals being aware or at least having a working knowledge on the overall kenpo concepts you are demonstrating. I'm sure someone would say "do that again" or "where did you learn that ____ that particular way?"
The diversity of the kajukenbo tree [chuan fa,tum pai,kakenbo,etc...] BOA would be able to identify & recognize what you do as well as the GOTE Yudanshakai board.
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE

 

[MJS]

Hi folks!
Dear Mike,
The point of the kajukenbo board as well as the GOTE board is that SOMEONE would be doing YOUR system as a barometer for effectively crituquing what you were doing within the confines of your given kenpo style, as well as the other individuals being aware or at least having a working knowledge on the overall kenpo concepts you are demonstrating. I'm sure someone would say "do that again" or "where did you learn that ____ that particular way?"
The diversity of the kajukenbo tree [chuan fa,tum pai,kakenbo,etc...] BOA would be able to identify & recognize what you do as well as the GOTE Yudanshakai board.
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE

Thanks for the clarification. Happy Holidays.