Board Breaking......what is it good for?

[Yeti]

From my experience, it's been made FAR to much a part of a lot of tournaments and I've seen technique suffer in order to "get that break". I know many proponents of breaking, of which I am not one, say that it helps define or perfect technique, but I've seen the opposite effect. Too many "underbelts" judge their self worth on how many boards they can break or with what kick they can break them. The "art" is lost in favor of "show".

BUT...life is short. If breaking makes you happy...do it!

 

[Brother John]

Hi folks!
Let's see if I can add some interesting thoughts to the discussion.
I am a huge proponent of board breaking, and here is why. (Excelent way to begin! Puts you and your thoughts forth w/out putting anyone on the defensive)

1. It is a challenge, and with any challenge, it requires some skill, extensive practice, and a feeling of accomplishment/confidence when successful.

2. While a person can get away with sloppy breaks on one or two boards, it requires proper technique to break three, four, five or more boards. Thus, it hones skills, and promotes proper execution for power, focus, and accuracy.

3. It goes beyond the physical skill, and tests the student's ability to perform under pressure, or with distractions. Notice how beginner students generally take a while to prepare for a simple break, and often miss a try or two. When crowds are being noisy, and the pressure to pass a test, or win a competition is on, people often "choke." Getting over that, shows performance under pressure, which is good for street defense. I train black belts to break multiple stations as quickly as possible, with no preparation.

4. The impact on a board (or similar breaking material) relates to the power required to damage the human body. One to two boards equate smaller bones (IE: wrist or elbow joints, ribs, ulna & radius of the forearm), while three or four boards is comparable to larger bones (IE: Humerus, femur, etc.). If you can successfully break five or six boards, you can break ANY bone, in ANY human body, regardless of their muscle development.



I have also taught brand new students how to break one board, just to show it can be done by a beginner. ....I tell the student they need to improve their focus, breathing, muscle control, stance, balance, acceleration, use of reaction force, etc. etc., or they will not be able to break more than two boards.

Board breaking connects the rudimentary technique with physical force required to properly, successfully damage a target. Imagine rolling a bowling ball down a lane with no pins at the end. The ball might pass over the center arrow, and you might think you would have gotten a strike, but put up the pins, and you might find that your technique does not produce the results you thought it would. Even with pins, a strike achieved improperly is a fluke, and will not be a desirable technique for a high scoring game. Likewise, swing a bat without hitting a ball - - are you sure it will be a home run? Swing a golf club without hitting a ball - - will it make it from tee to green for a hole-in-one, or will it slice into the trees?

I know that I can pick up my leg (front leg, back leg, spin kick, jump kick), and snap an opponent's knee, break the femur, or destroy the entire rib cage with ease, because I have practiced the required muscle contraction, bone alignment, speed, accuracy, etc., required to accomplish the task many times. I also know that my punches, knife-hands, ridge-hands, elbow strikes, etc., are powerful enough to break bones, and drop an opponent. Board breaking is the practice that corrects the errors in thinking that your technique will damage a target.

We usually give the students their broken board to take home, and I have seen them cling to those boards like they were more valuable than any trophy from any tournament. What does board breaking accomplish? It tests and promotes proper skill, instills pride, confidence, and provides a visual demonstration to fellow Martial Artists, and non-Martial Artists. Oh, and like others have said........ It's FUN! :boing1:
CM D.J. Eisenhart

OK...
Ya know how when we argue and disagree here in martial talk, or other like forums, we seem to just go round and round and round??? ...and how even IF you make some sterling..Lucid..logical points that you think "Ok...those are unassailable"....people still come back unconvinced???
Not me. Not entirely....and not this time.

Mr. Eisenhart...You convinced me! (there really should be some little medal or ribbon to pin on your chest that says "I made an opinionated martial artist on "Martial Talk" do a 180 on something he thought he KNEW he was against) !!!!
NOTE: You weren't 'confrontational' and didn't try to use the "You just don't know what you're talking about" attitude....you confidently and thoughroughly stated your case and even gave some pretty neat analogies to further the concepts behind your reasoning! (I like that)

Now: Bask in that for a sec.....I've got more to say...
:asian: :asian:

ok...
There are some points that you made that I don't totally buy, and then there's those that CHANGED my mind. I left both of these in the quoted section above so I could address each. WHO KNOWS...maybe you or someone else could address

#1: It is a challenge. That's true. It is progressively more difficult. Anyone who claims differently shows that they've not tried it. The only thing I would say is: IS the payback equal to the work X the Risk?? (Here I'm talking about a solid stack of more than 3 boards) That I'm not as sure of. I've seen some people who were very experienced and had a great reputation as a "Breaker" who ended up damaging their limbs to the point that they were hobbled for life. One guy I know walks with a cane to this day because of a thick stack of boards. It really wasn't his fault, I don't think. If you watch the video (and talk to him) there were two things that went very wrong: First.... the fourth board out of six had the grain going vertical instead of horizontal like the rest of the boards. He admits this as his fault as the breaker should oversee and double check the construction and hold of his stack....he didn't.....ONE time.....and it had the worst result. The second thing to go wrong was that one of the people supporting the stack seemed 'nervous' about supporting such a break and ended up not only holding it tight but seemed (on video) to actually push the upper end of the boards forward some in anticipation of the impact, making the boards lean forward and changing the angle of the contact surface by Maybe two inches at the last moment before my friends foot could land.
Nuff said: I just wonder if the amount of work needed to get breaking down good is worth the level of payback Vs. the degree of potential damage/harm. I don't think this is an unreasonable concern.

#2: This one can't be denied. BUT: It leads me back to the point just above. Is it worth it all? Obviously you've had good returns from your work though. ALSO: As far as requireing good technique....I don't know. I've seen far too many people take these huge wind-ups and leaning too far into a strike to get that amount of force...I've seen it be effective in the break but also lead the practitioner outside the parameters of "Good Form".
I'd have to say that IF I used breaking in my school as a practice and a requirement....it's have to stipulate that a "Break" isn't the only important result...but that "Form" would be strictly judged as well.
How do you address this?

#3: Performance under-pressure and with distraction:
Sure...but no more than any other aspect of performing an element of their art With others and infront of an audience of their peers or others. Same way that people 'choke' on a form or in the execution of a detailed self defends scenario. I'd say that these things are a better test of concentration and perfection of skill. If I have a student testing and I tell his attacker just before he attacks "Move with AUTHORITY....if they don't respond, they are hurt!" ...and then a moment later they attack and the student must respond while all of the school and their lovedones looks on... I think that's more of a stress test. OR when the student doesn't know the nature of the attack and must simply respond to whatever happens. OR when they are in the center of a ring of their peers and they don't know who will attack next. I'd say that these are Much greater stress tests and they apply more directly to the skills and traits they should have gained by that point of their development.

#4: This is the point that I must disagree with.
The bones and joints of the body are Very different than boards or bricks.
Bones (MOST) are round.
Bones don't have a 'grain', and even if they did... you'd not know which direction they go.
Bones don't just stand alone, they have a decent layer of facia, muscle, ligaments/tendons and fat protecting them. This matrix of other supportive tissues makes a bone very resistant to breaking. OBVIOUSLY not "immune" to breaking..still I would Very Strongly disagree with your opinion on:

One to two boards equate smaller bones (IE: wrist or elbow joints, ribs, ulna & radius of the forearm), while three or four boards is comparable to larger bones (IE: Humerus, femur, etc.).

IF you take those four boards...make them Three one inch in diameter dowls (sp?) none of which have a distinguishable 'grain' and of a material Much stronger than pine, wrap them in bubble wrap, wind two layers of duct-tape from top to bottom, three inches of foam padding (representing the dense, intercrossed muscles around the femur), and one more layer of duct-tape...
THEN make sure that not only is this target mobile (as each independant limb of the human body is naturally mobile) as well as the contraption that's holding it in place (as the human body can move as a whole, like when they shuffle away from you). (((Taking these last two issues of mobility into account, you'd have to make it a 'speed break' probably)))
IF you did all of these things, I think then you'd only begin to approach being able to compare it to a break of the femur.
Four flat, immobile, grained, slats of pine supported securely by at least four or more hands exerting force behind it....and without the intricate network of softer, more pliable/durable tissues to insure it's survival....
I just don't see them comparing at all.
IT IS closer than just snapping your foot out into space or into a heavy bag or such....but it's still not 'close'.
Taking these into account:

If you can successfully break five or six boards, you can break ANY bone, in ANY human body, regardless of their muscle development.

Is a statement that I can't agree with one ounce. (Don't mean to be too argumentative, just stating my case)

Ribs flex like the shaft of a well made recurve bow. Limbs move fluidly w/in rubberband like tissues with a thick sheet of criss-crossed muscles..
I just don't see it.
Bones CAN be broken w/out techniques, we've all seen it (if you've been around for any length at all), AND I will concede that breaking is a step in the right direction IF bone breaking is your aim (YUK) but it's a distance approximation, not a correlation.

The breaks that I've always been genuinely impressed with are speed breaks!!!
OR Breaks of non-striated/grained material (red-building bricks) with NO SPACERS and NO empty space under or behind them. THIS, to me, is most impressive. But from what I've seen....it's more dangerous and also....more 'rare'.

I tell the student they need to improve their focus, breathing, muscle control, stance, balance, acceleration, use of reaction force, etc. etc., or they will not be able to break more than two boards.

I'm not trying to argue, but could you help me understand your use of the term "Use of reaction force"? Just wondering what you're indicating with it.
thanks...


OK: Now that I've put a critical eye to what you've said.....now here's this HUGE pat on the back again:

Board breaking connects the rudimentary technique with physical force required to properly, successfully damage a target. Imagine rolling a bowling ball down a lane with no pins at the end. The ball might pass over the center arrow, and you might think you would have gotten a strike, but put up the pins, and you might find that your technique does not produce the results you thought it would. Even with pins, a strike achieved improperly is a fluke, and will not be a desirable technique for a high scoring game. Likewise, swing a bat without hitting a ball - - are you sure it will be a home run? Swing a golf club without hitting a ball - - will it make it from tee to green for a hole-in-one, or will it slice into the trees?

I know that I can pick up my leg (front leg, back leg, spin kick, jump kick), and snap an opponent's knee, break the femur, or destroy the entire rib cage with ease, because I have practiced the required muscle contraction, bone alignment, speed, accuracy, etc., required to accomplish the task many times. I also know that my punches, knife-hands, ridge-hands, elbow strikes, etc., are powerful enough to break bones, and drop an opponent. Board breaking is the practice that corrects the errors in thinking that your technique will damage a target.

These two paragraphs not only really convinced me of your case, but sent me to my favorite distributor of martial arts goods to order a set of re-breakables and a support frame.
I intend to work on them in the stationary support and then after a time, work on speed breaks.
THANK YOU!~
If I get it down good, who knows....might post a link to a video??? (never done that before.....)

BTW: The person I've always considered the MASTER of breaking is Grandmaster He Il Cho !!!!! Ever see him??? WOW!!!!!!!!!artyon:
Seriously!! I saw him tape two boards together, throw them upwards like a vertical frisbee toss.....and snapp them CLEAN with a spinning backfist!!!
That impressed me MORE than any large stack break!

Have a good one. I lookforward to the ongoing discussion!

Your Brother
John
PS: I'm STILL, however, dead set against:
1. Ice breaks. (Even I know how to rig that)
2. Flaming boards. (Please.......)
3. Boards or bricks set on spacers that are W I D E appart.
4. The use of spacers, at all, between boards!!

Basically: Theres a HUGE difference between "parlour trick" stunt breaks, and a genuine break! I think you'd agree with me on that....

 

[Last Fearner]

Brother John,

Thank you for your kind praise, and your honesty in addressing the items with which you disagree.

Let me start with this:

PS: I'm STILL, however, dead set against:
1. Ice breaks. (Even I know how to rig that)
2. Flaming boards. (Please.......)
3. Boards or bricks set on spacers that are W I D E appart.
4. The use of spacers, at all, between boards!!

I agree with you here! I don't like these, and I don't do them!

Next:

#1: IS the payback equal to the work X the Risk??
I just wonder if the amount of work needed to get breaking down good is worth the level of payback Vs. the degree of potential damage/harm. I don't think this is an unreasonable concern.

You are correct, this is not an unreasonable concern. My answer, however, would be "yes, it is worth the risk." With anything that is important, there might be risks, but we do what we can to avoid, or reduce any risk. You could abandon board breaking all together, or you could practice the one board breaks for a long time. Once skill is improved, practice breaking only two boards for a long while. If you are confident with that, move on to three. Keep the higher number of board breaks for powerful kicks, and work your way up - SLOWLY! The risk is reduced to a minimum if you are guided by an experienced instructor, and don't attempt more than a single step above what you have already perfected.

It is unfortunate what happened to your friend, but accidents, and oversights are more of a fluke, than a calculated risk. We all have to be careful to "ensure - absolutely" that the board grain is set up correctly, and avoid inexperienced holders for advanced breaks. If precautions are followed, and training is well-supervised, the risk of injury, in my opinion, is very, very low, and the benefit to skill, confidence, and application is huge!

#2: As far as requireing good technique....I don't know. I've seen far too many people take these huge wind-ups and leaning too far into a strike to get that amount of force...I've seen it be effective in the break but also lead the practitioner outside the parameters of "Good Form".
I'd have to say that IF I used breaking in my school as a practice and a requirement....it's have to stipulate that a "Break" isn't the only important result...but that "Form" would be strictly judged as well.
How do you address this?

For the most part, if the person is doing a "huge wind-up" and throwing their weight into it, leaning too far, they have not learned how to break correctly. This is not where true power from Taekwondo technique is derived. There will always be a difference between an initial quick strike, and a devastating final blow, but even the more difficult board breaks must be done with control of posture, balance, and rotation of internal forces. "Form" is highly important when breaking properly, but with four or five board breaks, they should be compared to a situation where the opponent has been stunned or dazed, and a little telegraphic set-up for power won't be detrimental.

#3: Performance under-pressure and with distraction:
Sure...but no more than any other aspect of performing an element of their art With others and infront of an audience of their peers or others.... I'd say that these things are a better test of concentration and perfection of skill.

I won't disagree with you that there are other tests of performance under pressure, or that these other examples might be "better" tests in general. However, I would say that the ability to "break" a bone, or totally destroy a target comes mostly from practical application, and repetition of that skill. In a fight, you might be able to spar, block, strike, grapple, or throw with undisturbed concentration in spite of distractions as a result of the other training you mentioned. On the other hand, the focus of actually, forcefully and accurately breaking a bone is a step up from striking the surface, and the concentration required is often a notch or two higher. Simply put, you don't know if the concentration needed to fight with distractions will suffice for the execution of precise techniques powerful enough to break bones unless you practice breaking something under pressure.

#4: This is the point that I must disagree with.
The bones and joints of the body are Very different than boards or bricks.

Taking everything you mentioned to support the above statement, I have reduced the quote down for brevity. I have been in this same discussion with people before, and it is usually not an easy debate.

The short answer is this: The only way to prove or disprove the theory of comparing boards to bones, is with a live human target. I have tested with adult volunteers, the gradual increase of power, through double layers of pads, to the point where less than half my power was beyond their ability to withstand without injury. Remove pads, and increase power, and bones will break.

We can agree that every bone in the body can be broken under a certain amount of pressure or impact. The main questions are, how much force for each bone (including the factors of natural elasticity, surface protection, and muscle contractions), and what test of breaking with hand and foot techniques might relatively accurately compare to the skill needed to meet, or exceed that force. Bones are easier to break than many people think. A moving person can get their bones broken with kicks or strikes, but there are ways to stop your opponent from moving, and fix their body with feet planted for a sold strike.


From my experience, and personal tests, short of actually breaking a volunteers bones, I am quite confident that the comparison to the power needed to break multiple boards very closely equates to bones, and when I say that five or six boards will exceed the force needed for any bone, regardless of the shape of the bone, the location, or it's surface protection, this is not an overstatement. Anyone can doubt this statement, or challenge the theory, but only an actual test on a live human target would absolutely confirm or disprove the theory. Anyone want to volunteer??

As to your question of "Reaction Force" - - Gee, I hate to give out too much free information, and there are too many people who can benefit from these discussions whom I might not want to learn these lessons (those who might misuse the knowledge). Let me say that your instructor should have taught you the lessons of the principle behind Isaac Newton's law of "Reaction Force," and how it applies to strikes in the Martial Art. Applied force is a formula that is attained through various elements of proper technique. Besides the internal "reaction force" derived from creating the movement, the impact results in a return of force, also known as "reaction force." This force can be lost, or utilized to reach maximum striking force.

Perhaps this clears up what I meant by the "use of Reaction Force."

I welcome any responses, and will try to elaborate on board breaking as compared to real life application as needed.

CM D.J. Eisenhart

 

[linuxcooldude]

I'm not too popular on breaking boards. Ok for demonstrations and such. Expecally the plastic reuseable ones. They just don't have the give of a real one. When brand new seem even harder to break. I've had injuries with them along with other people I know. Don't really have much to do with self defence.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Mr. Parker said that breaking will improve your art 2% and therefore should be practiced 2% of the time.
Sean

 

[Last Fearner]

Mr. Parker said that breaking will improve your art 2% and therefore should be practiced 2% of the time.
Sean

I would question Mr. Parker's statistic (more like his personal opinion). Tell me how one would accurately account for any percentage of improvement due to board breaking? How would you possibly calculate that? Just curious. :idunno: From my experience, a student who has not yet developed the ability to hurt, or stop an attacker with a strike, but gains that ability by the practice of board breaking has improved at least 100% - - usually, many times over (first, you can not accomplish it - now you can).

I have seen many students who can hit a bag with varying degrees of impact, but never knowing how much force they are hitting with, and not knowing if it is enough force to tickle their opponent, bruise the surface, damage the muscle, or break a bone. Companies have made devices which attempt to record and display the level of impact, but how accurate are they?

At least with a board, you know that if it does not break, either you did not hit it hard enough, or you did not strike it correctly. Then you know you have something to improve. When the board breaks, you have an indication that you made the correction. An experienced instructor's eye can help you to determine what you are doing wrong when you don't break, and if you made the proper correction when you do. It should be obvious that these improved skills will relate to enhanced ability in striking for self defense.

Anyone ever wonder what would happen if you were attacked, and you gave the attacker your best shot, and he just stood there, brushed it off, looked at you and laughed? Well, board breaking can help to assure that does not happen. It's not the only tool, but it is a good one.

 

[Yeti]

Anyone ever wonder what would happen if you were attacked, and you gave the attacker your best shot, and he just stood there, brushed it off, looked at you and laughed? Well, board breaking can help to assure that does not happen. It's not the only tool, but it is a good one.

That's BS! Using your rationale, if I can break a board, I can stop anyone with "my best shot". Come on. If you think breaking is an important part of YOUR training, then that's great. Don't try to validate it by making completey unrealistic comments like that.

 

[Last Fearner]

That's BS!

Well, first of all, Mike...... Thank you for stating your opposing point of view with such respect.

Now, secondly....

Using your rationale, if I can break a board, I can stop anyone with "my best shot".

Please re-read my post, because that is not what I said. I simply asked the question if anyone had wondered what would happen if they gave an attacker their best shot and it didn't phase them. That's a fair question, and everyone's answer may vary. If your not one to have wondered that, then the conversation doesn't apply to you.

Come on. If you think breaking is an important part of YOUR training, then that's great. Don't try to validate it by making completey unrealistic comments like that.

Yes, I do think breaking is an important part of my training. That's what this thread is about. What each person's personal opinion and experience is about breaking. With all due respect to you, sir, if you have an opposing point of view, then by all means, post it! I saw nothing in your comments that either added to the discussion, or presented any specifics to refute my statements.

You said, "Don't try to validate it by making completey unrealistic comments like that." What was unrealistic? Be specific. What is your counter-claim to support your point of view? What is your point of view? Please do not simply lash out and call someone's serious input "BS" without presenting a valid argument as to why you feel that way. In fact, I would say you could state your opinion without calling my comments "BS" at all - - I find that highly disrespectful, sir.

My only statement in the post that you quoted was that when it comes to improving a student's skills to avoid hitting an attacker with insufficient power to do damage, "board breaking can help to assure that does not happen. It's not the only tool, but it is a good one." Now, I can back up that claim with years of experience, and practical demonstration. Do you have anything constructive to offer that says board breaking will not enhance a person's ability to strike harder, and defeat an attacker? If you are not one who needs board breaking to be successful with your strikes, then great! I don't mind that you disagree with me, but pleased do not validate your argument by calling my comments "BS"........ sir!

Thank you
CM D.J. Eisenhart

 

[Yeti]

Last Fearner,
Well, I stand by what I said. You made an outrageous statement to bolster your point of view, and you are reverting to semantics now that someone called it out. Whether or not you phrased it in a question, a hypothetical situation, or came right out and said it, your meaning (or, your opinion) was apparent.

And I did state my opinion further up in this thread. I am not a fan of breaking. I have seen technique and form be tossed out the window in favor of show when it comes to breaking, and I have seen that consistently and across styles. However, I also said if breaking works for you, then do it, and I stand by that as well.

You and I disagree on the value of breaking. That much is evident. The very things you feel breaking enhances are the same things I feel it detracts from. And as I said, if it's an important part of what you do then I applaud you for staying with it. That being said, if my earlier phraseology offended you, then I apologize for the tone I took in my ealier post. Perhaps I could have been more diplomatic in expressing my opinion. However, that is an opinion I still hold.

 

[cooldude]

Breaking has it usefullness. But I agree ( On the 2% thing ) It should not take the place of the other types of traning. A board is not a moveing target and breaker has as much time to prepare for the break as he wants. A skilled boxer or ultimate fighter is use to actually getting hit and more then likely need multible hits to take him down and will eaisily shake off just one shot. Single shot take downs are very rare. And a moveing target as well as well as trying not to get hit yourself. To me it seems more of something to show off during demonstrations and big events.

 

[Last Fearner]

Last Fearner,....
if my earlier phraseology offended you, then I apologize for the tone I took in my ealier post. Perhaps I could have been more diplomatic in expressing my opinion. However, that is an opinion I still hold.

Apology accepted! :asian: Thank you for your more civil tone, sir.

Now, to address your comment made here:

Well, I stand by what I said. You made an outrageous statement to bolster your point of view, and you are reverting to semantics now that someone called it out. Whether or not you phrased it in a question, a hypothetical situation, or came right out and said it, your meaning (or, your opinion) was apparent.

Apparently, my meaning was not apparent enough, because you misquoted me, turned my question into a statement, and made an analogy that did not fit my meaning. You say I "made an outrageous statement," yet you have not specifically identified what statement you claim to be outrageous, and what are your counter-points that lend credibility to your claim. I don't mean to be argumentative with you here, but if you are going to call someone's statements "outrageous," I think it is only fair that you be specific as to what statement you believe is outrageous, and why.

Refresher:
I asked, "Anyone ever wonder what would happen if you were attacked, and you gave the attacker your best shot, and he just stood there, brushed it off, looked at you and laughed? Well, board breaking can help to assure that does not happen. It's not the only tool, but it is a good one."

You then stated, "Using your rationale, if I can break a board, I can stop anyone with "my best shot". Come on."

You might say I'm "reverting to semantics" here, but that is not what I said, asked, or implied. I made no such claim that the ability to "break a board" can "stop anyone" with your best shot. That was not my "rationale," and if you drew that conclusion, you were mistaken!

You went on to say, "Don't try to validate it by making completey unrealistic comments like that."

Interesting statement, since I didn't make that "unrealistic comment" - - you did, and NO, I'm not trying to turn things around now that you have "called it out," as you say. It's simply not what I said, nor what I meant. My meaning was that if you strike a person with your "best shot," and it has little effect, then you need to improve your "best shot." Board Breaking is one way to help do that - - If you are properly trained in how to use Board Breaking for that purpose.

To illustrate what is my true meaning, consider this analogy:

If you are in a gun fight with another person who is shooting back at you, you need to accomplish three basic things: #1. Don't get shot! #2. Be able to hit your target (moving or stationary), and #3. Have the power of your bullet be strong enough to penetrate what it hits.

You can be very accurate with aiming your weapon, and pulling the trigger at the right moment, but if the "load" behind the "shot" is so weak that the bullet bounces off the skin, then the accuracy of your aim, and timing won't matter because the impact is not powerful enough to do any significant damage.

Now, how does a person know if the charge behind the bullet will propel it fast enough, and hard enough to penetrate the target, and do some damage? Simple, they go to a firing range, set up something that has a similar density to a human body, or harder (in lieu of actually shooting a live person), and they practice shooting.

Of course, some people will argue, "what good does that do? The bad guy in the street isn't going to stand still for you to shoot at them. You have to be able to hit a moving target." Well, sometimes they do stand still for you. Sometimes you have to shoot them when they stop between movements. Sometimes you have to shoot them on the run. That type of targeting training is a different aspect, and should be practiced. However, no matter how good you get at shooting a moving target, it is worthless if there is not enough power behind the shot.

The same analogy logic could be applied to drawing a bow far enough to shoot the arrow through a target, or pumping a pellet gun enough times to penetrate more than one layer of skin.

Board Breaking is ONE METHOD of teaching a student how to focus on a target, and hit it accurately and powerfully enough to destroy it (it is difficult to be good at hitting moving targets, if you can't even hit something that is standing still). Board Breaking is in indicator as to how much power is really behind the technique. If a student can destroy an opponent with strikes without ever having broken a board, then they don't need to break boards!

On the other hand, if a student hits one single pine board with their best shot, and it does not break, chances are - when they hit a real person, the impact is not going to be enough to stop, injure, or drop that attacker. Improved board breaking skills, through proper practice CAN change that, thus it is a useful tool for those who need it, and know how to apply it, and understand that it is not the only thing they need to be able to defeat an attacker.

I have seen technique and form be tossed out the window in favor of show when it comes to breaking, and I have seen that consistently and across styles.

The above statement seems to be at the crux of your opposition to board breaking. I would address this by saying that there is a difference between "showy" type breaking for demonstrations, and powerful, and skillful breaking where "technique and form" are not thrown out the window. Perhaps it is just that you have only seen people who don't apply breaking practice properly, or you have seen it in demos instead of training under the supervision of Master Instructors.

This is my point. Feel free to disagree, but I doubt that you can honestly say that my rationale is "outrageous." If you did, then I would say that your statement about my rationale being outrageous....would be outrageous! :lol: :asian:

Thank you,
CM D. J. Eisenhart
___________________
Last Fearner

 

[silatman]

I have been following this discussion since its beginnings and must admit that I came in with the pre concieved notion that breaking is a waste of my time and effort.
However and this is a big however, after reading some of these posts I must admit that my knollegde of why you would break has now increased hugely and I'm finding myself asking if breaking might be somrthing that I might use to further walk the path.
In the past I have asked my instructor about breaking and his response was that "boards dont hit back so why hit them". I have the utmost respect for my instructor and in no way would consider leaving his system but was wondering if somebody could start me on the path of breaking.
What do you hit?, how do you hit it?, where do you hit it?, how high do you place it?, does somebody hold it?, and any other question that I have not even thought of.
I consider myself a fairly hard hitter, we do focus pad work before each session and my training partners have told me that I do penetrate through the gloves with all strikes. I have been training in my current system for over 4 years.
If somebody would help me with these questions I would appreciate it.

 

[silatman]

Anyone?

Please

 

[Kacey]

I have been following this discussion since its beginnings and must admit that I came in with the pre concieved notion that breaking is a waste of my time and effort.
However and this is a big however, after reading some of these posts I must admit that my knollegde of why you would break has now increased hugely and I'm finding myself asking if breaking might be somrthing that I might use to further walk the path.
In the past I have asked my instructor about breaking and his response was that "boards dont hit back so why hit them". I have the utmost respect for my instructor and in no way would consider leaving his system but was wondering if somebody could start me on the path of breaking.

I've answered each question individually, so I don't miss one.

What do you hit?,

It varies, but most people break one or more of the following items: 1" thick pine boards, generally 12" x 12" or 10" x 12" (usually cut from pine bought at a home improvement center or lumberyard, which typically comes in 12" widths of varying lengths), cement roofing tiles (from lumberyards or material yards), or rebreakable boards, of which there are several main varieties, the ones with pegs, the ones that slide together (these two come in belt-color coded varieties) and the ones that slide together that only come in one strength (sorry, I couldn't find those right off, but they're heavier gauge plastic, and harder than the other 2 varieties). There are variations on wood, cement, and rebreakables; some organizations only use rebreakables, some only wood, some only tiles (cement), and some a variety. Each has its own attributes and rationales.

how do you hit it?,

It depends on what you're trying to do. Could be hand or foot techniques; there's a wide variation in this by style, age, gender, and rank. Higher ranks generally perform techniques that are more difficult (high twist kick instead of low front kick) or break more boards with one technique.

where do you hit it?,

In the middle. Wood and tiles are most breakable in the center, as far as possible from the supports, which are on the edges; rebreakables only break on the join between the two pieces. All of them require

how high do you place it?,

It depends on the technique - but generally, you place the target at a height commensurate with hitting it perpendicular to the attack - for example, the easiest height to break with a side kick is hip height, as that is where you get the greatest force moving toward the target, and your attacking tool is perpendicular to the surface of the target; also, the body mechanics work better. It is much harder to break when your tool is not perpendicular to the target - for example, a high side kick, in which the tool would be at a 15 or more degree angle to the surface of the target, is much harder to break with than with the hip height side above.

does somebody hold it?, and any other question that I have not even thought of.

Boards can be held by a person, especially if there are only one or two; however, most organizations that break regularly have board holders that are sized to boards (rebreakables are generally 12" x 12", and fit in the same holder as pine boards). Board holders are much easier on the people holding (they hold the board holder against a solidly supported wall) than hand held boards, although for only one or 2 boards, an experienced person holding the board can be less intimidating than approaching a board holder. Tiles are generally place on cinderblocks for hand breaks, and are not held by people (they shatter when broken, and the pieces are sharp), although I have occasionally seen them strapped to the front of the board holder, but, they are larger than wood.

I consider myself a fairly hard hitter, we do focus pad work before each session and my training partners have told me that I do penetrate through the gloves with all strikes. I have been training in my current system for over 4 years.
If somebody would help me with these questions I would appreciate it.

Focus pads don't hit back either... not to show any disrespect to your instructor, but it would be the logical next statement to "boards don't hit back". If that is his only rationale for not breaking, then you should only be hitting each other, not any type of inanimate objects. Granted, focus pads can be moved during an exercise, and are not placed (after a certain amount of experience, anyway) at exactly the correct height for attacks, but there is a difference between hitting a soft target and a hard one. Like hitting a focus pad, breaking requires that one focus one's power in a specific point; certainly, with only one or two boards and basic techniques, weight and strength can take the place of technique, but as the number of boards and difficulty of the techniques increase, the skill necessary to break becomes a much greater issue than sheer strength. I am more impressed by breaks done by a 12 year-old girl than I am the same break by an adult of the same rank - because she must use skill, as she doesn't have the strength and weight to fudge it the way her father does (they're both green belts).

The purpose of board breaking (for those who do it and feel it has purpose) has been covered in the previous posts in this thread, so I'm not going to go back over it; there's really not anything I can add that hasn't already been said.

 

[silatman]

Thanks for taking the time to help me out.
I dont know if "boards dont hit back" is the only reason that we dont break but as he is a reasonable person I'm sure that he believes that it isnt an area that he needs to add to his system.
There is only one other black belt in our class and as we generally do most, not all, of our focus pad work together we actually unstiched our mitts and added a piece of wood between the foam layers. This had the effect of making our pads alot harder so that when you contact the surface it is like hitting a makiwara.
We always make sure that when we train lower grades we make them aware of this and give them the choice of switching pads.
Once again thank you for posting, time to go and cut down a tree, ha ha.

 

[tsdclaflin]

What do you hit?, how do you hit it?, where do you hit it?, how high do you place it?, does somebody hold it?, and any other question that I have not even thought of.

Already answered, but I would like to also comment.

I teach Tang Soo Do. After 9th gup, every test AFTER that has breaking requirements. Students who break for the first time (at each level) have a surge of confidence. Some of their faces light up. It is a great training experience.

What to hit?

1x12 pine boards cut in 4", 6", 8", 10" and 12" inch lengths. Small children start with 4" and work up. Teens and adults start with 6". Black belts and experienced breakers use 10" and 12". The wider the board, the easier to break. Do not buy 1x10 or 1x8 and cut them in 12" lengths. You need 1"x12"; for example: 1"x12"x10'

how do you hit it?

power = velocity x mass

hit it fast and relaxed. good technique hit in the center of the board will break. aim one inch or more BEHIND the board. DO NOT STOP AT THE BOARD. strike THRU the board.

does somebody hold it?

you need to break WITH the grain. the grain runs down the full length of the board. cuts will be against the grain. holders will need to hold the uncut edges.

hand
--------------------------------
--------------------------------
--------------------------------
--------------------------------
--------------------------------
hand

the board will break somewhere on the grain

hand
--------------------------------
--------------------------------
/\/\/\/\/\/\-break-/\/\/\/\\/\/\/\\/
--------------------------------
--------------------------------
hand

holders should hold firm and lean forward slightly. if the holders absorb any of the force, it will be more difficult to break.

where do you hit it?

wood should be hit in the center in both directions

how high do you place it?

whereever you naturally hit. for kicks, students usually kick a little higher than where they practice.

and any other question that I have not even thought of.

vertical breaks can be supported on concrete blocks. beginner breaks include hammerfist. other breaks would be downward punch (have to be 16 years old my school to punch with knuckles) or palm heel. ax kick is a great downward kick.

horizontal strikes:
punch or palm, holders hold top and bottom
elbow, holders hold top and bottom and face board perpendicular to breaker
front kick, holders hold top and bottom
back kick (if toes are pointed down), holder holds sides
ax kick, holder holds sides
side kick, holder holds top and bottom, kicker kicks with heel

my latest breaks were 5 boards with side kick
and 6 concrete blocks with ax kick (with spacers, makes it easier)

let me know if you want more info, www.wildhorsemartialarts.com

-Ken