Blocking vs. Evasion?

[K-man]

I was always taught blocking in any martial arts that I have done. I was also taught evasion, when I first heard that some martial arts do not teach blocking at all I was quite surprised, I mean why would you not block. Many arts such as Muay Thai and boxing et al get along quite well without doing much blocking but one thing I have noticed is that the fighters in these martial arts tend to get hit a lot so they rely on being able to take a hit. In a street self defence situation you cannot afford to get hit even once, there have been many one punch deaths in recent years. Evasion is much easier on your body than blocking but requires more time and energy and after the strike is evaded the opponents momentum and direction of movement remains largely unchanged. The great thing about blocking is that you can redirect the attack wherever you want it to go. A good block will not only redirect the attack but will also damage the attacking tool, even to the point of breaking the attacking arm. You can also strike at the same time as you block. The are some techniques however that you should only block as a last resort, such as a hooking kick or crescent kick and it is better to evade.

Would I ever use the blocks I teach in a bar or street situation? Most definitely YES, otherwise why learn and teach them.

Actually, what you have been shown has been taught as a 'block' and demonstrated as a block and indeed in some instances might even be used as a block.

Why would you not block? I have no idea why you would not block. I mean, in play, threaten to hit a three year old child with a noodle and they will throw their hands up to protect their head. I play 'karate' with my grandchild. He must be smarter than most because he can block any attack without being shown. I have never said you don't block. But blocks are based on reflex. We call it the 'Oh, s#1t' reaction. If you need to block you will do it by reflex. How many 'blocks' do you know to protect your head? There must be at least half a dozen. If I go to hit you in the face hard and fast, which one will you use? I will guarantee that you won't use anything you were taught. You will protect by reflex action the same way as every other fighting system does. So, for me, the only time I would actually block an attack, that is stop the attack, is when I have been caught off guard by surprise and the survival instinct kicks in. Now I am at a disadvantage because by stopping the first attack I have precipitated the next.

So, I contend that the 'blocks' we are all taught are not blocks at all but techniques to deal with attacks that you see coming. This normally will involve deflection and may involve tsabaki.

Your analogy of Muay Thai is quite good. They do get hit a lot and the chances are in an all in brawl you will too. Not protecting yourself in a fight gets you killed. Muay Thai fighters spend a lot of time trying to protect their heads with their arms, particularly against elbows.

One punch deaths caused by the punch are extremely rare. I have never actually come across one. Hitting the head on concrete after one punch is unfortunately quite common.

The great thing about blocking is that you can redirect the attack wherever you want it to go. A good block will not only redirect the attack but will also damage the attacking tool, even to the point of breaking the attacking arm. You can also strike at the same time as you block.

Let's define 'block'.

"b : an obstruction of an opponent's play in sports; especially : a halting or impeding of the progress or movement of an opponent in football by use of the body".

So after you stop an attack, redirecting is difficult and you will most likely have a second attack on the way to contend with. A good defence ​will not only redirect the attack but may also damage the attacking tool, if we choose that option as part of our response.

Would I ever use the blocks I teach in a bar or street situation? Most definitely YES, otherwise why learn and teach them.

I doubt very much that you would.

Why would you learn them and teach them? I really think you need to think about that yourself. For me, I learn them and teach them as the kihon or basic form of receiving an attack. But what we are teaching is an Uke, not a block. :asian:

 

[RTKDCMB]

Boxers and such do block, alot. Using guards. Why? Because boxing happens right up close, as does muay thai. And identifying every individual strike is alot harder than it sounds when they stop making sense. Blocks are good for the first strike, sometimes the second if you ignored the first. After that, have fun trying.

I often hear that argument from those who do not practice blocking as part of their regular training. The gloves that boxers wear offer a lot of protection from strikes when they are in their guard. Good blocks come from the guard and one must avoid large rangy movements, I often have to tell beginners not to 'swat' away with the blocks,there is also an element of evasion to them. To be able to block effectively you have to be faster than your opponent's strike so you must be able to anticipate the opponents actions, this significantly increases your chances of blocking. After 25 years I can block 90-95% of the strikes aimed at me from someone of similar skill and when I use evasion only the percentage is significantly lower and once in a fight a former kickboxer tried to kick me in the groin 3 times and failed every time due to my use of low section blocks. Basically if you do not train with blocks every day you will never be any good at them, in other words use it or lose it.

 

[chinto]

ok at least in Okinawan arts it is generally true that every block is a strike at the attacking limb, and the best block is not to be there. that said there are times where you can not evade for what ever reason, and a block is better suited and or the block is redirecting the limb and turns into a lock, throw or grapple or even brake. Most techniques have several uses, and each martial artist will find ways that work better for them. also a newer practitioner may not see a use for something in but one or two ways, and when he has trained for several more years see more possibility's for that same technique..

 

[Cyriacus]

I often hear that argument from those who do not practice blocking as part of their regular training. The gloves that boxers wear offer a lot of protection from strikes when they are in their guard. Good blocks come from the guard and one must avoid large rangy movements, I often have to tell beginners not to 'swat' away with the blocks,there is also an element of evasion to them. To be able to block effectively you have to be faster than your opponent's strike so you must be able to anticipate the opponents actions, this significantly increases your chances of blocking. After 25 years I can block 90-95% of the strikes aimed at me from someone of similar skill and when I use evasion only the percentage is significantly lower and once in a fight a former kickboxer tried to kick me in the groin 3 times and failed every time due to my use of low section blocks. Basically if you do not train with blocks every day you will never be any good at them, in other words use it or lose it.

Ill take that in order.
1: I used to do blocking as a very regular part of training. Two months of contact sparring later, i decided to let that be a thing of the past. Basically i decided to scrap two years worth of training based around blocks. The hard part was getting rid of the mentality.
2: The gloves factor in to an extent, however helmet guards function based on compression, as does raising one arm. You dont get hit in the glove when you guard the side of your head, or when you use a helmet guard. Why? Because your gloves are on your forehead. If you feel like punching me in the forehead with a bare knuckle, be my guest. Punch me in the back of the hand and i now have a chance to attack you whilst youre busy not really doing much significant damage. People can and have fought on (street fighting) with broken hands, fingers, and all sorts.
3: Kickboxing uses low blocks as well. But im unsure why he would repeatedly attempt kicks to the groin - Was this in a sparring setting or mutual combat? I already know it wasnt the other option, good sir.

 

[RTKDCMB]

If you need to block you will do it by reflex. How many 'blocks' do you know to protect your head? There must be at least half a dozen. If I go to hit you in the face hard and fast, which one will you use? I will guarantee that you won't use anything you were taught. You will protect by reflex action the same way as every other fighting system does.

I probably know about a dozen blocks for a head attack. The instinctive ones that I do by reflex are the outer block, inward palm block, outer forearm block and raising block, if I am just standing around with my hands down and someone on the street attacks me the inner forearm block is the reflex. The other blocks that I know such as the X-block require a little forethought. With the practice of free sparring, one and 3 step sparring, blocking and attacking drills and patterns the blocks become instinctive after a while. In the 25 years that I have been training I have estimated that I have performed blocking techniques somewhere between 75 000 and 200 000 times, based on an average of 3 training sessions a week for 50 weeks of the year, so blocking has become instinctive when getting attacked.

So, I contend that the 'blocks' we are all taught are not blocks at all but techniques to deal with attacks that you see coming.

You also have to see an attack coming in order to evade it, a well trained martial artist paying attention will see most attacks coming at them that just comes with training.

Hitting the head on concrete after one punch is unfortunately quite common.

That was what I was referring to.



Let's define 'block'.

So after you stop an attack, redirecting is difficult and you will most likely have a second attack on the way to contend with. A good defence ​will not only redirect the attack but may also damage the attacking tool, if we choose that option as part of our response.

I doubt very much that you would.

damaging the attacking tool is not so much as a conscious and separate effort as it is a byproduct of forearm conditioning and power in the blocks. I can block quite hard so I have to think in order to not block too hard on the younger/beginner students.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

wheres Asian styles focus less on evasion and more on *active* blocking.

Is this a fair generalization?

You are talking about the beginner level trainning of the Asian style. In the intermediate level, you should only see the body move and you should not see the arms move. You should use your body to push/pull your arms/legs. Whether your arm can block your opponent's punch or not, you have to move your body to be outside of your opponent's striking path first.

In the intermediate level, your blocking should be a "body rotation".

 

[K-man]

I probably know about a dozen blocks for a head attack. The instinctive ones that I do by reflex are the outer block, inward palm block, outer forearm block and raising block, if I am just standing around with my hands down and someone on the street attacks me the inner forearm block is the reflex.

I would argue that your inner forearm block is reflex and you think it is what you have learned when in fact it is innate. That is exactly what I described but it dies't take 25 years to perfect. I would like to see you do the others, as you teach them, in a real situation.

The other blocks that I know such as the X-block require a little forethought. With the practice of free sparring, one and 3 step sparring, blocking and attacking drills and patterns the blocks become instinctive after a while.

So what you are saying is that you have to think. In sparring that is fine. After 25 years training you should be able to anticipate attacks, especially in sparring, but if you have to think, to me that is not really desirable. And, we threw out all prearranged sparring years ago. Patterns of your blocks may be instinctive (muscle memory) but they will not be reflex.

In the 25 years that I have been training I have estimated that I have performed blocking techniques somewhere between 75 000 and 200 000 times, based on an average of 3 training sessions a week for 50 weeks of the year, so blocking has become instinctive when getting attacked.

I would hate to try and estimate how many times I did over my first 20 years of just doing what was expected of me. It wasn't until about 12 years ago that a friend pointed out to me what I am offering you now. It changed my whole approach to the martial arts.

So, I contend that the 'blocks' we are all taught are not blocks at all but techniques to deal with attacks that you see coming.

You also have to see an attack coming in order to evade it, a well trained martial artist paying attention will see most attacks coming at them that just comes with training.

Sure.

damaging the attacking tool is not so much as a conscious and separate effort as it is a byproduct of forearm conditioning and power in the blocks. I can block quite hard so I have to think in order to not block too hard on the younger/beginner students.

What you are describing here is a strike, not a block. We do lots of conditioning too but I never use my forearm to block. If I hit your arm with my forearm it is a deliberate attack on your arm. However, because we don't sports spar it is highly unlikely I would target the arm when by same strike can hit the head or neck.

I couldn't care less how long and how many hours you train. I probably train more hours a week and have trained for more years. What you are describing is what a top karate colleague in the US calls an advanced beginner. Regardless of rank and time in training, you are what you train. If you train kihon you perform kihon. (That is not meant to be personal, it is a general observation.) The fact is TKD is for sport mainly and it is conducted at kicking distance. Our training is conducted at grappling range normally so the dynamic is totally different. For example, someone coming in might get one shot at the groin ... but to give him three chances? That means that I am moving out of range, not entering.

You can highly develop muscle memory so you can perform under adrenal dump but although that might make things instinctive, they are not reflex.

Reflex actions are loosely defined as any action that the body performs unconsciously. There are several different kinds of reflex actions, including some that are responses to external stimuli and others that regulate body organs and functions. There is also a theoretical class of reflex actions that can be learned, but the existence of these and the mechanism behind them is debated

Some scientists have theorized about another kind of reflex action called a conditioned reflex. These involve a learning process where people experience something enough times and eventually develop a reflexive response to it. Unlike most reflexes involving external stimulation, these would involve the brain directly. The idea for this came from a Russian scientist named Ivan Pavlov who figured out that it was possible to make a dog salivate when it hears the sound of a bell by consistently ringing a bell right before feeding it. Scientists are generally in agreement that these sorts of reactions exist, but there is some debate about whether or not they should be called reflexes.
http://www.wisegeek.com/what-are-reflex-actions.htm

Have a look at this video. It is labelled Superior Blocking but in reality there are only a handful of blocks. These are reflex blocks and they only occur when he has lost contact with his partner. After each of his blocks he goes back to his instinctive responses. I know this is not karate but karate came from Gung fu and the Okinawans practised Te. This is a good example of using the hands and arms to deflect an attack without stopping it.

(I'm not sure if this will play as I'm posting from my iPad. If it doesn't work, I'll repost.)
:asian:

 

[Cyriacus]

The fact is TKD is for sport mainly and it is conducted at kicking distance. Our training is conducted at grappling range normally so the dynamic is totally different. For example, someone coming in might get one shot at the groin ... but to give him three chances? That means that I am moving out of range, not entering.

It also means the other person isnt entering, which communicates a clear lack of aggression, and/or violent intent. Stuff happens up close.

Some people have trouble grasping that because in training, it might not be that way. Why? Because in training, youre doing what youve been shown to do. If youve been conditioned to maintain a certain range, that range will become your go-to. Even if it means retreating to it, which is more often than not a self defeating practice. Its hard to self defeatingly retreat by moving forward.

You can highly develop muscle memory so you can perform under adrenal dump but although that might make things instinctive, they are not reflex.

And thats assuming you dont freeze.

 

[celtic_crippler]

I couldn't care less how long and how many hours you train. I probably train more hours a week and have trained for more years.

Really? ...really.

All bow down before the mighty K man!

The all knowing omnipotent master of all martial arts!

Of course, yours is the only approach that works. Right? ... right. Because you have such a keen insight into martial arts and self defense.

Pardon us peons for doubting you, Oh ominpotent karate-god!

 

[K-man]

Really? ...really.

All bow down before the mighty K man!

The all knowing omnipotent master of all martial arts!

Of course, yours is the only approach that works. Right? ... right. Because you have such a keen insight into martial arts and self defense.

Pardon us peons for doubting you, Oh ominpotent karate-god!

Thank you for your informative post. I'm sorry you feel that way. I actually thanked you for your previous contribution to this thread.

you must have misread my posts as I have always said there are many ways, many applications and all MAs are different. The secret is finding the similarities and the things in one MA that might enhance our understanding of our own. But seeing that you are now into the swing, perhaps you could show me some video of a real continuous fight where people are using karate blocks, or karate stances for that matter. :asian:

 

[celtic_crippler]

Thank you for your informative post. I'm sorry you feel that way. I actually thanked you for your previous contribution to this thread.

you must have misread my posts as I have always said there are many ways, many applications and all MAs are different. The secret is finding the similarities and the things in one MA that might enhance our understanding of our own. But seeing that you are now into the swing, perhaps you could show me some video of a real continuous fight where people are using karate blocks, or karate stances for that matter. :asian:

Once I figure out how to edit MP4 in Window's Movie Maker I will. LOL

Um... don't suppose you know anything about that?

I have an altered American Kenpo technique, Thundering Hammer, that does just that. If I could figure out how to edit MP4 in Movie Maker I would glady post it.

 

[Dirty Dog]

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[K-man]

Once I figure out how to edit MP4 in Window's Movie Maker I will. LOL

Um... don't suppose you know anything about that?

I have an altered American Kenpo technique, Thundering Hammer, that does just that. If I could figure out how to edit MP4 in Movie Maker I would glady post it.

Sorry, my computer skills are declining with age, not improving. But I'll look forward with interest to seeing your technique.

 

[celtic_crippler]

Dang... I saw a new post was made and thought somebody could help me with the MP4 issue.

 

[celtic_crippler]

Sorry, my computer skills are declining with age, not improving. But I'll look forward with interest to seeing your technique.

Eh.. I'll figure it out.

The technique addresses a "fighting" scenario where both combatents are poised for a "fight".

It is widely accepted that action is faster than reaction, and the scenario involves your opponent slipping past your lead hand with a jab.

If your hands are in the game, your rear hand pads the punch. The contact triggers you to adjust your stance into what we call a reverse lunge (similar to a reverse bow in standard kenpo) simultaneously with an inward block.

The purpose is to postion you opponent so that a follow up uppercut to their kidney is easily accessible.

Once I figure it out, I will post it for ya.

 

[K-man]

Eh.. I'll figure it out.

The technique addresses a "fighting" scenario where both combatents are poised for a "fight".

It is widely accepted that action is faster than reaction, and the scenario involves your opponent slipping past your lead hand with a jab.

If your hands are in the game, your rear hand pads the punch. The contact triggers you to adjust your stance into what we call a reverse lunge (similar to a reverse bow in standard kenpo) simultaneously with an inward block.

The purpose is to postion you opponent so that a follow up uppercut to their kidney is easily accessible.

Once I figure it out, I will post it for ya.

But isn't that exactly what I am saying? You are not blocking but deflecting. By the time your attacker realises his attack has failed you have hit him. :asian:

 

[chinto]

a lot of blocks are actually traps to control the one who attacked you. there are a lot of controls in Karate that come from the 'block' where you trap the wrist and pull them in or lock them or brake that arm or even leg.

As to use of Karate stances, I have seen a street altercation where the stances were used by one combatant. he won, and stopped the attacker cold.

 

[Cyriacus]

Once I figure out how to edit MP4 in Window's Movie Maker I will. LOL

Um... don't suppose you know anything about that?

I have an altered American Kenpo technique, Thundering Hammer, that does just that. If I could figure out how to edit MP4 in Movie Maker I would glady post it.

Download Windows Live Movie Maker. Its free and its basically the same thing. It edits MP4 files (I believe). If that doesnt work, you can use one of many online converters to change it into WMV. I eagerly await your video of a real continuous fight with karate blocks and stances.

If you need any further assistance i can provide
I have an Adobe program for file conversion. If all else fails, youre welcome to send it to me, ill convert it and send it back to you.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Ill take that in order.

3: Kickboxing uses low blocks as well. But im unsure why he would repeatedly attempt kicks to the groin - Was this in a sparring setting or mutual combat? I already know it wasnt the other option, good sir.

It was about 20 years ago in an actual street fight, he was trying to hurt me, I could have beaten him in the first few seconds but I made the mistake of not wanting to hurt him and letting it go on too long, a mistake I would never make again.

 

[K-man]

Here is an interesting article and it has a decent example of jiyu kumite. Let me know if you find a 'block'. Evasion yes. Deflection yes. Blocks?

Dojo training, specifically Karate fighting, can be real tough. The physical rewards are; we become stronger and faster, our reflexes sharpen, we build endurance and improve our one-on-one sparring ability.
Thousands, maybe millions of repetitions of Karate moves, over years of training to a point where they are hard-wired is one thing, but that may not be enough in the event of a sudden violent assault.

Exceptional Karate Technique does not automatically equip you with the reflex skills needed in chaotic situations where there is no time to think.


http://www.dynamic-karate.com/karate-fighting.html