Bjj Belt Progression

[joemoplata]

So true Brian. I remember going to a seminar and the bjj instructor when he walked around asked everyone did they pay their seminar fee.
I know of 1 or 2 people who probably shouldent be the belt they are, but bjj has a wonderful way of showing this. It's called rolling. Any lacking of skill will quickly become apparent. Which is a good thing.
Also I think the quality of instruction has gone up as well, alot of us, when we started traing bjj were doing postures incorrectly (some were even shown wrong on purpose:shrug. There is a lot more openness in the art now.

Marvin,

You sound a bit frustrated with some of your experiences with BJJ instructors. Can you elaborate on who these were with and who you're with now and what the difference is?

 

[Marvin]

Marvin,

You sound a bit frustrated with some of your experiences with BJJ instructors. Can you elaborate on who these were with and who you're with now and what the difference is?

Hey Joe, sorry I didn't respond earlier, didn't see the post. I'm not frustrated, just don't have time for a lot of BS. I'm not big into mud slinging so I'll refrain from talking about particular individuals. The difference is in training methods. But I will tell you what I don't like as far that goes.
I dislike the style of showing one or two techniques that may or may not go together repping them a few times and then "ok free spar it". That way insures all the young studs work over every one else.
I dislike individuals who sandbag their students belts so they win metals at tournys.
I dislike instructors who don't share.

I am an atg of the straight blast gym, but the sbg is more of a loose knit confederation more than it is an organizationheaded by one individual. Everyone does their own thing, with one caveat "Aliveness". I know you've all seen and read about it ad nausium by now, but the alive thing is a litmus test, it brings an honesty to everything we do. And honesty is a good thing. I like the what is called the "I" method of training http://aliveness101.blogspot.com/2005/09/coaching-sbgi-way.html. And I like the people.

 

[joemoplata]

Marvin,

I totally understand. I teach two different programs myself, one is traditional gi BJJ and the other is no-gi and it's difficult to figure out how to teach in a way that is beneficial and also fun for everyone. The "here's a technique, now go spar" method is more common with Brazilian instructors (which is all I've ever known, so please don't think I'm knocking that). I myself have tried to move away from that mentality where I teach because of the complaints I've heard like you shared.

 

[Marvin]

Marvin,

I totally understand. I teach two different programs myself, one is traditional gi BJJ and the other is no-gi and it's difficult to figure out how to teach in a way that is beneficial and also fun for everyone. The "here's a technique, now go spar" method is more common with Brazilian instructors (which is all I've ever known, so please don't think I'm knocking that). I myself have tried to move away from that mentality where I teach because of the complaints I've heard like you shared.

That's cool that you are trying to change up your teaching method Joe. IMO, isolation with progressive resistance is the best way to go for every body type.

 

[MeatWad2]

The school I go to doesn't let you go past blue belt until you can compete and handle yourself in class with other blue and purple belts without a problem. It doesn't mean you win every single time, however, you can just hold your own is what matters. It takes 10 years to get a black belt in the school I train at...no exceptions. Even this guy's son doesn't get a pass until he can hang with the black belts without a problem.

 

[joemoplata]

The school I go to doesn't let you go past blue belt until you can compete and handle yourself in class with other blue and purple belts without a problem. It doesn't mean you win every single time, however, you can just hold your own is what matters. It takes 10 years to get a black belt in the school I train at...no exceptions. Even this guy's son doesn't get a pass until he can hang with the black belts without a problem.

That's pretty standard operating procedure for a BJJ school.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

This has been a fun read. The Gracie Academy in Torrance and it's offshoots (Ricksons school in Santa Monica and satellite school in Orange County, and the Machado's and their schools) used to tbe the only games in town. You got rank by working your butt off, then one day, one of the instructors would snatch a belt off the wall and say "Here. Wear dees". Poof; you're a blue belt...but got there making the other blues work to "catch" you, and occasionally catching one of them.

So this guy by the last name of Gracie...one of several cousins...came to the US, and opened a "Gracie jiu jitsu" school. But he didn't teach the way the others did, didn't demand the level of skill, and promotion was based largely on if the check cleared. Trouble for him was, everybody knew that about him, except for the unsuspecting public who found him in the phone book and were glad they didn't have to drive from Newport Beach to Torrance.

So, one of Ricksons students is purple or brown, demands the next rank up, and has to roll with Rickson to earn it...hold him off for some number of tapouts in some other number of minutes. Fails. Leaves. Couple of months later, shows up in a martial arts mag as the demo dummy for the quack Gracie, wearing a black belt. For privacy sake, let's call him "bozo".

Not long after that, there was a big BJJ tourney in Irvine at the Bren Events Center. BJJ teams flew up from Brazil, and in from the east coast. Everytime a rep from bozo's school gets called to the floor for a match, the entire stadium lets out a collective "boooooo". Why? Because they were students under a guy wearing rank earned the easy way.

In all fairness, Bozo proceeded to prove his own worth both in his own improved personal performance, as well as turning out some pretty darned good fighters into MMA. But I bet there were at least a coule of years where he regretted taking the easy way out.

In short, the problem for guys getting it fast is that they will always be looked at sideways by guys who put their time into a longer road. 10 to 14 years was average then. How do you suppose a 14 year BJJ black belt is going to regard a 5 year BJJ black belt? Like a purple promoted too soon.

Fun topic; thanks for the memories.

D.

 

[USP45CT]

Id say 9-12 years if you remain dedicated and consistent.

 

[SA_BJJ]

In short, the problem for guys getting it fast is that they will always be looked at sideways by guys who put their time into a longer road. 10 to 14 years was average then. How do you suppose a 14 year BJJ black belt is going to regard a 5 year BJJ black belt? Like a purple promoted too soon.

Makes me think of guys like Joe Stevenson, Jake Shields, GSP...etc etc etc.

They may be good in their own rights, but did they truly earn that Black belt? Hmmm, one will never know.:soapbox:

 

[Ybot]

Makes me think of guys like Joe Stevenson, Jake Shields, GSP...etc etc etc.

They may be good in their own rights, but did they truly earn that Black belt? Hmmm, one will never know.:soapbox:

Okay, I know nothing of Joe Stevenson's grappling ability, other than several years ago he beat my instructor Cassio Werneck (who was fresh from winning the Mundials BTW) in a sub-grappling tourney. Stevenson won on points from takedowns. He was tough, and tenacious, which is what brought his victory. That was in '03 or '04. Do I think he could have ligitemately have reached black belt by now? Probably, but I don't know.

GSP, I know nothing about his sub-grappling/BJJ ability.

I do know, though, that Jake Sheilds is an amazing top level grappler. There is no question as to his ability. Ceaser Gracie doesn't hand out belts, and all of his black belts are world class level. David Terrell, Nick Dias, and Shields.

 

[SA_BJJ]

I am in no way saying that they didnt earn their belts, however this is the reason why so many BJJ newbs either ask how long it takes to get a blackbelt or start to come up with hypathetical situations like "if I train for 5 hours a day for 6 days a week for 2 years then I should get a black belt" Thats BS. And I think ALOT of belt are handed out.

Also, you can be a world class grappler and not be a black belt. So that is no valid argument to me.

 

[Ybot]

I am in no way saying that they didnt earn their belts, however this is the reason why so many BJJ newbs either ask how long it takes to get a blackbelt or start to come up with hypathetical situations like "if I train for 5 hours a day for 6 days a week for 2 years then I should get a black belt" Thats BS. And I think ALOT of belt are handed out.

Also, you can be a world class grappler and not be a black belt. So that is no valid argument to me.

You act as if these guys received their belts quickly, or something. Jake didn't get his belt BJ Penn fashion. He trained for years under Ceaser Gracie. If we assume that he was at minimum a white belt when he fought his first MMA match, that would put him at at least 9 years of training before he got his Black. Knowing Ceaser Gracie, though, it was probably longer.

 

[SA_BJJ]

You act as if these guys received their belts quickly, or something. Jake didn't get his belt BJ Penn fashion. He trained for years under Ceaser Gracie. If we assume that he was at minimum a white belt when he fought his first MMA match, that would put him at at least 9 years of training before he got his Black. Knowing Ceaser Gracie, though, it was probably longer.

So are you saying that BJ didnt deserve his belt. BJJ is based on skill. Yes you have to put the time in, but if you progress quickly its because you have the skill to do so.

 

[Pyrock]

Now you got me wondering who "Bozo Gracie" really is! I am not a practitioner but rather a parent of one who trains under one of the Gracies so I know virtually.....NOTHING!

 

[Steve]

Sometimes it seems to me that so much of bjj skill is based on athleticism. Maybe if you're a clutz you'll never get very far in this art. What do you think?

I can tell you that's not true in my experience. I'm a physical retard, and was awarded my blue belt after about 18 months. I worked hard and focused on technique. There are a lot of guys more athletic than I am, but I hold my own and did very well in competition against other white belts.

I can understand that it might look like athleticism trumps skill in BJJ. Certainly doesn't hurt, but I've found that consistent training in BJJ will actually help you become more fit and athletic, particularly through your core. Not the other way around. Or maybe to be more clear, you don't gain rank in BJJ by being athletic. Instead, you become more athletic by training in BJJ... and the rank takes care of itself.

I can almost see my abs under my beer gut now.

 

[Steve]

I am in no way saying that they didnt earn their belts, however this is the reason why so many BJJ newbs either ask how long it takes to get a blackbelt or start to come up with hypathetical situations like "if I train for 5 hours a day for 6 days a week for 2 years then I should get a black belt" Thats BS. And I think ALOT of belt are handed out.

Also, you can be a world class grappler and not be a black belt. So that is no valid argument to me.

You're also talking about elite athletes. One thing that I like about BJJ, common to many martial arts, is that being an elite athlete doesn't hurt, but isn't required. Stands to reason that the guys competing at that level, who are elite athletes training in combat sports full time, will progress faster than guys who train 10 or 15 hours per week. If it takes an average guy 10 or so years to achieve a black belt, it makes sense to me that an elite athlete would progress faster.

As for being a world class grappler, sure, there are world class wrestlers who aren't BJJ black belts. At the same time, those world class wrestlers have an enviable foundation that would make excelling in BJJ much easier than someone who had never seen it before.

My theory is that, in the USA at least, the strong wrestling tradition laid the groundwork (haha) for an explosion of great jits. We have kids who are grappling as early as age 5 in wrestling coming into the BJJ school at 15 with strong takedowns, heavy hips, great body awareness and a laudable work ethic. Why wouldn't they pick it up faster? Of course, this is also, IMO, why no-gi seems to be more popular, but there you go. That's another discussion entirely.

 

[SA_BJJ]

You're also talking about elite athletes. One thing that I like about BJJ, common to many martial arts, is that being an elite athlete doesn't hurt, but isn't required. Stands to reason that the guys competing at that level, who are elite athletes training in combat sports full time, will progress faster than guys who train 10 or 15 hours per week. If it takes an average guy 10 or so years to achieve a black belt, it makes sense to me that an elite athlete would progress faster.

As for being a world class grappler, sure, there are world class wrestlers who aren't BJJ black belts. At the same time, those world class wrestlers have an enviable foundation that would make excelling in BJJ much easier than someone who had never seen it before.

My theory is that, in the USA at least, the strong wrestling tradition laid the groundwork (haha) for an explosion of great jits. We have kids who are grappling as early as age 5 in wrestling coming into the BJJ school at 15 with strong takedowns, heavy hips, great body awareness and a laudable work ethic. Why wouldn't they pick it up faster? Of course, this is also, IMO, why no-gi seems to be more popular, but there you go. That's another discussion entirely.

I can agree with that...however in my opinion I think that no-gi training has really taken off because everyone and their mom wants to be an MMA fighter now.

 

[SA_BJJ]

I can tell you that's not true in my experience. I'm a physical retard, and was awarded my blue belt after about 18 months. I worked hard and focused on technique. There are a lot of guys more athletic than I am, but I hold my own and did very well in competition against other white belts.

I can understand that it might look like athleticism trumps skill in BJJ. Certainly doesn't hurt, but I've found that consistent training in BJJ will actually help you become more fit and athletic, particularly through your core. Not the other way around. Or maybe to be more clear, you don't gain rank in BJJ by being athletic. Instead, you become more athletic by training in BJJ... and the rank takes care of itself.

I can almost see my abs under my beer gut now.

Blue belt in 18 months is not bad at all!!!!! Congrats. How long have you been in the blue?

 

[Steve]

I can agree with that...however in my opinion I think that no-gi training has really taken off because everyone and their mom wants to be an MMA fighter now.

That's part of it, too. I've heard guys say that training gi is unrealistic, cheating... you name it. Lots of reasons.

I'm a pretty new blue belt... got it in July. November was my two year anniversary.

 

[SA_BJJ]

That's part of it, too. I've heard guys say that training gi is unrealistic, cheating... you name it. Lots of reasons.

I'm a pretty new blue belt... got it in July. November was my two year anniversary.

Well congrats on the new blue belt...it is an awesome milestone!