Best Time to Mix different FMA

[Andrew Evans]

I have a Modern Arnis background and recently attended a Dekiti Tirsia Siradas seminar. GM Jerson Tortal and his son Master Jerson Tortal Jr. were awesome. Many of their instructors were highly skilled. They are very good at what they do.

I noticed many of the same differences as Arnisador, who also comes from a Modern Arnis background. For reference, see thread at http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13828

Although, I can see how these differences can help me with my training, a couple of my less experienced (one year or less) students who went to the seminar felt confused.

My question is when is the best time to mix different FMA?

Thanks,
Andrew

 

[Dan Anderson]

Although, I can see how these differences can help me with my training, a couple of my less experienced (one year or less) students who went to the seminar felt confused.

My question is when is the best time to mix different FMA?

Thanks,
Andrew

When a person is certain enough in his/her initial art so as not to be confused or thrown off by what he/she learns in a seminar of another.

Best,
Dan Anderson

 

[MJS]

I have a Modern Arnis background and recently attended a Dekiti Tirsia Siradas seminar. GM Jerson Tortal and his son Master Jerson Tortal Jr. were awesome. Many of their instructors were highly skilled. They are very good at what they do.

I noticed many of the same differences as Arnisador, who also comes from a Modern Arnis background. For reference, see thread at http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13828

Although, I can see how these differences can help me with my training, a couple of my less experienced (one year or less) students who went to the seminar felt confused.

My question is when is the best time to mix different FMA?

Thanks,
Andrew

I'm a big fan of crosstraining. IMO, there are so many arts out there, why not sample different things. If you are making yourself better then why not do it right? However, the question that you ask is a good one. My question for you is: How long have you been training in Modern Arnis? Depending on your answer will allow me to give a better answer. I'll do my best to give an example of the point I'm trying to make. I've always been a believer that you should have a SOLID understanding of your base art FIRST, and then look at crosstraining. Sure Modern Arnis and Pekiti Tersia (sp) are both Filipino arts, but they are different. If you have been doing MA for 6 months, then I'd say no, dont look at anything else yet. If you've been doing it for 3 yrs, then yeah, why not train in something else.

Mike

 

[lhommedieu]

After nine years of training in one Filipino martial art, I have just started training in another Filipino martial art. I also have instructor rank in a couple of other (non-Filipino) martial arts.

A solid footing goes a long way towards making sure you're headed in the right direction.

Best,

Steve Lamade

 

[thekuntawman]

i dont believe in cross training the way that many people think of cross-training, which is to do a few classes here and there, and think you are benefiting your skill by doing this.

what i do like about cross training, is when you actually train in that other style as if you are not doing any other style for a long time, and make that style just as useful to you as the one you already specialize in. so for that, i consider maurice smith a sucessful fighter in cross training, because he showed that he can rely on only his wrestling, or fight only with his kickboxing. but lets look at royce gracie, who is a great grappler. what would he do if he could not fight on the ground, and had to remain standing. he would be in big trouble. but if gracie wanted to truly cross train into standup fighting, say if he trains with emmanuel steward (trainer of the klitcho brothers, lennox lewis, naseem hamed, and others) for at least one year, good enough to hang with golden gloves fighters. i would say his cross training is successful, because he really gets the benefit of learning to box.

but somebody who only learned to identify punches and movements in boxing, and demonstrate them to non-boxers, his knowledge is almost useless. when you cross-train, your other ability in those arts should be just as good as those who already train in the style. learning a little wont help you. example: i am a stick fighter, who learned some grappling. i am fighting a jujitsu man who was able to penetrate my attack and get me to the ground. will my little knowledge of grappling help me against someone who specialized in that style? a big no way. but if i learned to roll good enough that my opponents do not realize that jujitsu is not my base, than i have not wasted my training time in grappling. but all these guys who take jujitsu seminars, and cannot fight using only the jujitsu, they are not cross training, they are collecting techniques (and wasting money).

if your going to cross train, its best to really learn to use that style, not just learn a little of this and a little of that in the style.

 

[MJS]

i dont believe in cross training the way that many people think of cross-training, which is to do a few classes here and there, and think you are benefiting your skill by doing this.

Just to clarify..when I talk about crosstraining, I am referring to devoting a good amount of time in that other art. For example, I've done Kenpo for 17yrs., Arnis for 6yrs, and BJJ on and off for 10yrs. I can assure you that I have greatly benefited from all of those arts!!!!

what i do like about cross training, is when you actually train in that other style as if you are not doing any other style for a long time, and make that style just as useful to you as the one you already specialize in. so for that, i consider maurice smith a sucessful fighter in cross training, because he showed that he can rely on only his wrestling, or fight only with his kickboxing. but lets look at royce gracie, who is a great grappler. what would he do if he could not fight on the ground, and had to remain standing. he would be in big trouble. but if gracie wanted to truly cross train into standup fighting, say if he trains with emmanuel steward (trainer of the klitcho brothers, lennox lewis, naseem hamed, and others) for at least one year, good enough to hang with golden gloves fighters. i would say his cross training is successful, because he really gets the benefit of learning to box.

Good point!! IMO, being as well rounded as possible is a huge plus!!

but somebody who only learned to identify punches and movements in boxing, and demonstrate them to non-boxers, his knowledge is almost useless. when you cross-train, your other ability in those arts should be just as good as those who already train in the style. learning a little wont help you. example: i am a stick fighter, who learned some grappling. i am fighting a jujitsu man who was able to penetrate my attack and get me to the ground. will my little knowledge of grappling help me against someone who specialized in that style? a big no way. but if i learned to roll good enough that my opponents do not realize that jujitsu is not my base, than i have not wasted my training time in grappling. but all these guys who take jujitsu seminars, and cannot fight using only the jujitsu, they are not cross training, they are collecting techniques (and wasting money).

Well, unfortunately, unless you're gonna devote 20 yrs to boxing, BJJ, or anything else, if you're facing someone like Rickson Gracie after only having 1 yr of BJJ, well, its still not gonna help you. There really is no way to tell the level of experience of the other person until you're already in the fight. I look at it this way...its better than not having any of that training at all. I'm not an olympic swimmer, but if I fell into the pool I could hold my own.

if your going to cross train, its best to really learn to use that style, not just learn a little of this and a little of that in the style.

Another good point! However, even if you took 1 thing from another art, worked it like crazy...dont you think that would make a difference in your fighting skill?? I believe that it would!! A good example is a seminar. Will you remember everything from that 8hr seminar? Probably not. But, if you can take 1 or 2 things, and really work them..well, thats 1 or 2 more things that you didnt have before!! Chances are, you'll see the other stuff again at the next seminar.

Just a few thoughts.

Mike

 

[Andrew Evans]

This is a great discussion and I appreciate all the comments even though it has taken a larger path than I was seeking.

I'll have to agree with Mike on his take about seminars, as you can always obtain 1 or 2 useful things from a seminar. Who knows? Maybe the one thing you learned ends up saving your bacon... Seminars also allows the practitioner the opportunity to appreciate the differences and similarities between arts. However, I am seeing things as someone who had the luxury of building a solid base before becoming a semi-active seminar attendee. But then again, I was inundated by the philosophy of a former association that thought what they were doing was the right thing and there was no other way. Who knows? Maybe if I had a chance to see the great big world sooner, my outlook would have been different. (I know it has changed a lot since then.)

Right before discovering Modern Arnis, I obtained a couple of blackbelts in Chinese Kempo. Modern Arnis seems to be a big piece of the puzzle that was missing in my Kempo training. It even added a lot of flow to what I did. Conversely, Kempo adds lots of effective striking skills to my Arnis. IMHO, compared to the mixing of different arts, there weren't that many conflicts between my two main arts.

My initial question in this thread was how to mix different Filipino Martial Arts, as I noticed that some FMAs are different. For example, Modern Arnis uses the stick as an extension of the body and appreciates the increase in offensive range, while others I have seen tend to keep the stick closer to the body and enjoy more protection from arm strikes.

How does one effectively cope when conflicts in the FMAs occur? Is there a way to blend them? Does one simply add and take away what they like and dislike?

Thanks,
Andrew

 

[MJS]

This is a great discussion and I appreciate all the comments even though it has taken a larger path than I was seeking.

I'll have to agree with Mike on his take about seminars, as you can always obtain 1 or 2 useful things from a seminar. Who knows? Maybe the one thing you learned ends up saving your bacon... Seminars also allows the practitioner the opportunity to appreciate the differences and similarities between arts. However, I am seeing things as someone who had the luxury of building a solid base before becoming a semi-active seminar attendee. But then again, I was inundated by the philosophy of a former association that thought what they were doing was the right thing and there was no other way. Who knows? Maybe if I had a chance to see the great big world sooner, my outlook would have been different. (I know it has changed a lot since then.)

Thank you and you're welcome!! Glad that I could help! Reagarding the solid base comment that I made. I read your reply and want to clear up what I said. If you are taking Arnis, by all means, go to a seminar!!! You will definately learn alot of cool things! My statement reagrding having a base. What I meant was, is that if you are training in one art and want to look at something else, its my opinion, that you should have a good base in your FIRST art before you take on another one. But again, but all means, PLEASE, if you have the chance to attend a seminar/camp..DO IT!!!! It'll be well worth it!

Right before discovering Modern Arnis, I obtained a couple of blackbelts in Chinese Kempo. Modern Arnis seems to be a big piece of the puzzle that was missing in my Kempo training. It even added a lot of flow to what I did. Conversely, Kempo adds lots of effective striking skills to my Arnis. IMHO, compared to the mixing of different arts, there weren't that many conflicts between my two main arts.

Arnis, IMO, blends in well with everything! I love the locking and weapons training that you get from it. IMO, not every situation warrants an eye gouge or hit to the throat. With Arnis, it allows you more options to control a situation.

My initial question in this thread was how to mix different Filipino Martial Arts, as I noticed that some FMAs are different. For example, Modern Arnis uses the stick as an extension of the body and appreciates the increase in offensive range, while others I have seen tend to keep the stick closer to the body and enjoy more protection from arm strikes.

And thats exactly what you'll find. Every FMA has its own unique thing about it. But again, as I said above...if you have the chance to look at one of those arts, then do it.

How does one effectively cope when conflicts in the FMAs occur? Is there a way to blend them? Does one simply add and take away what they like and dislike?

Not quite sure what you mean by conflicts? Can you elaborate a little?

Mike

 

[Andrew Evans]

Maybe conflicts is too harsh of a word. I have see someone who has been doing something she has been doing for years have someone at a seminar say that's not the way to do it even she is doing it correctly in regards to a particular system.

 

[MJS]

Maybe conflicts is too harsh of a word. I have see someone who has been doing something she has been doing for years have someone at a seminar say that's not the way to do it even she is doing it correctly in regards to a particular system.

Was the person who told her she was wrong an instructor or another seminar student?? Reagrdless, everyone is gonna have 'their' own way of doing things. Maybe they told her one way, because it was the way THEY needed to do it, in order for it to work. I went to a week long Arnis camp last Oct. So many students with a wide range of exp. I worked with many different people on the same thing and got many different ways of doing it. My advice for her....take it with a grain of salt. Look at all of the different options and decide what works best for YOU!

Mike

 

[bart]

The beauty of the FMA is that you take a person's natural skill and enhance it. If someone comes into the game with strength in certain attributes, then you train them to enhance those attributes. At the same time on a lesser scale you start to work on the attributes that they lack in and build them up. Because of that philosophy the FMA are much more subjective than other arts. Because of the individual nature of the FMA versus the "cookie cutter" method employed in many other systems, there is often conflict and contradiction. What may work right off the bat for one individual may have to be developed over time in another individual in order for it to work for that person. The contradiction comes only when you try to uniformly apply something that cannot necessarily be uniformly applied. The best way to handle that type of conflict and contradiction is just to get used to it. That's the nature of the game. Of course there are some universals, like if you leave your hand out there someone will hit it, and if you don't bolster a force on force block then you'll take a hit in the face. But much of the logic in the FMA is fuzzy and that is just something that you'll have to learn to accept. Learn the art and then express it in your own personal style.

When it comes to mixing the FMA, of course it is always good to have an established base first, that way you have a way to relate what you're learning to yourself. But I think that mixing FMA via seminars and seeing what else is out there can start from day one. As an instructor, it's important to recognize that what you know is not the "end all be all" and you have a responsibility to your students, your teachers, and yourself to continue your own development. Many teachers think of themselves as a finished piece, but really every martial artist is a work in progress. The old adage applies that if you are not moving forward you are moving backward. Also and perhaps more importantly as an instructor in the FMA you have to be willing to get out there and mix it up, get in the trenches and be first among equals as opposed to being aloof and distant. By getting in there and being the "uke" or by learning things from other styles and instructors in a seminar, you show that you are unafraid of other systems and that the martial arts as an endeavor is never complete, but rather a lifelong learning and refining process.

When going into a seminar what I try to do is learn what I can and see how it fits into my art and my personal style. I don't try to learn the system, I try to learn the principles and see how I can interpret that within my own frame of being. Collecting techniques is a losing proposition whether you do it in a seminar or in a class that you attend regularly. Learning principles and then comparing them and contrasting them with those that you know and internalizing what you discern is useful and correct is the best you can get out of a seminar. Cross training is the same way. By absorbing principles you can get a picture of what the other system is thinking. From there you can apply things from your own arsenal that will counter and neutralize. But first and foremost is picking out the principle as opposed to just mimicking the technique.

 

[arnisandyz]

How does one effectively cope when conflicts in the FMAs occur? Is there a way to blend them? Does one simply add and take away what they like and dislike?

Thanks,
Andrew[/QUOTE]

I think as many have mentioned before, a good foundation is important to understand the particular systems characteristics. Is it a largo style? or Corto? Is it based on stick or blade? There are many other factors.. Once you establish that you can see other FMA - and fill in the blanks.

By conflicts in FMA, I'll use range as an example..One system might specialize in long range, emphasizing distance management, outside positioning and limb striking, another style specializes in corto, closing the gap, in fighting, punyos, takedowns, joint controls, etc... So the conflict is, one style says take care of it from far away, the other says close and finish. How do you resolve this? If your proficient in both, let the flow of the fight dictate what is right. Also, What weapons do you have avaiable at the time? Do you have a broom and the other guy a knife? Are you empty hand and the other guy has a bat? This is just one example of many, but there are many variables that answer there own questions.

Andy

 

[Black Grass]

How does one effectively cope when conflicts in the FMAs occur? Is there a way to blend them? Does one simply add and take away what they like and dislike?

Thanks,
Andrew

My advice, when training in Modern Arnis do as Modern Arnis does, when training with Pekiti do as Pekiti do as does, when on your own do what you like.

I'm all for taking techniques and making it your own however I feel the time and place for that is on your own time not during a seminar or class (unless this is what the instructor wants you to do).

When I learn something I try and do it exactly as instructed. Firstly, because there may be reasons that a style does things in a particualr way. If you go changing it before you learn it you may lose the essence of a technique. Secondly, and to me more importantly I feel it it is incredibly rude, if yo don't want to learn why are you there.

I remember I trained in a class and there was a student who came from another style who insisted on doing things his way openly stating why his style was the best. He took a lot of joy of training out of the class. He eventually shut up after we sparred .

Black Grass

 

[Andrew Evans]

Was the person who told her she was wrong an instructor or another seminar student?? Reagrdless, everyone is gonna have 'their' own way of doing things. Maybe they told her one way, because it was the way THEY needed to do it, in order for it to work.

Thanks Mike, the situation I described occurs to many students but I'll add your advice. It’s always good to hear another spin of it. I’m sure I sound old after a while when I say, "The instructor in front of you today is the instructor who is correct TODAY."

Andrew

 

[lhommedieu]

Just coincidentally...

I posted this on the Martialtalk.com "Modern Arnis" forum a couple months ago:

"Sal and Chad taught an excellent seminar on Saturday. I was (I think) the only non-Modern Arnis practitioner attending. They welcomed me right away and quickly brought me up to speed before putting me to work with Bruce Benson, a Modern Arnis Black Belt.

Sal started the day by teaching stick traps, locks, and disarms, and followed up with trapping hand applications and empty hand presets. Much of the material was new to me as my Filipino martial arts background is primarily based upon espada y daga technique at Largo Mano range. It was easy to appreciate the logic and practicality behind all of the techniques, which were clearly and effectively presented. Many of the stick applications were taught off of “Abanico Corto,” (which I recognized as “Break Out” in other Filipino martial arts systems). This technique has you zone out to the opponent’s flank and away from his empty hand. It is therefore (from my perspective), a valuable entry to know at closer range as it zones you away from the dagger hand.

Following a brief break for lunch, Chad introduced some stick grappling concepts as they pertained to choking and taking an opponent to the ground. He was especially good at relating the effectiveness of the chokes to the anatomy of the neck, as well as to the body mechanics that would make each choke more effective. The information presented was also very detailed with respect to how to attack anatomical structures to turn and manipulate the opponent. Towards the end of the class, there was a brief introduction to the application of the riot baton that included a lot of practical information with respect to its actual use in large crowd situations.

This was a valuable seminar experience with individuals who obviously enjoy working out together. The camaraderie between the participants was particularly evident when Datu Hartman paid a surprise visit. I’d like to thank Sal and Chad for welcoming me so warmly to their group, as well as to my training partner for the day, Bruce Benson, whose experience and good humor were on hand to manage my inexperience with Modern Arnis."

Best,

Steve Lamade

 

[Andrew Evans]

Hey folks, I wanted to learn some tips on how to help my students but I ended up learning how to train better myself. Thank you so much! I totally agree with going to a seminar and being like a blank page. I frequently tell my students, “Just like you, I’m also a student myself.”

Also, I like Mr. Bart Hubbard’s distinction between principles and techniques. To me, being able to get the technique down is one thing but understanding the principle behind it is another.

It would be great to hear about the differences between Modern Arnis and Doce Pares. I'm hoping Mr. Hubbard or anyone else can share some insights.

The camaraderie between the participants was particularly evident when Datu Hartman paid a surprise visit.

Datu Hartman would also get a warm welcoming in my neck of the woods. I've seen some good practitioners and he's one of the best.

Thanks,
Andrew

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Datu Hartman would also get a warm welcoming in my neck of the woods. I've seen some good practitioners and he's one of the best.

Thanks,
Andrew

:asian:

 

[Mark Lynn]

Great discussion

I have attended several seminars on the FMA from a bunch of different styles or systems. And I have also taken a few classes as well in different styles. It was mentioned a few posts back about styles conflicting and in a sense that does happen, take Modern Anris we grab the stick and use it as an impact weapon the majority of the time. In Pekiti Tirsa I was told by an instructor that they treat the stick as a blade so you wouldn't grab it rather you control the weapon hand.

Foot work also differs between these systems with Modern Arnis having a footwork that resembles karate but Pekiti Tirsa has a totally different movement and principle behind their footwork movements.

However I agree totally with the statement about the instructor being in front of you being correct today.

I like to check out other systems and styles to get a broader understanding of the FMAs and to get fresh ideas. Call it collecting techniques or principles whatever, I enjoy it and enjoy meeting all of the different people. I attended a seminar a couple of months ago and learned some different applications of the Single Sinawali Advance drill that I hadn't seen before, along with a different apllication of footwork that I'd seen the Pekiti guys do in sparring but the system wasn't related to Pekiti or Modern Arnis (that I know of). ( I hadn't thought of applying that footwork /technique / principle to the Sinawali drills.)

Learn what you can from the seminars and enjoy the experience and training with other people outside of your normal class. But when in someone elses seminar, school, class or whatever shut up, learn and listen.

Respectfuly submitted
Mark

 

[Mark Lynn]

One more thing I forgot

Since at first there wasn't a FMA school around my primary source of instruction was hitting seminars in the 80's. And I used the FMA (JKD) to supplement my training in American karate/TKD etc. etc.

However I learned the Presas arnis from Hock and he introduced me to GM Remy and GM Ernesto. I studied those systems for several years before I went back to the JKD Kali, Pekiti Tirsa and others to see what else was out there. As a beginner I think a person should stay with one system for months/years before going to a seminiar/outside class etc. etc. outside of their system.

Mark

 

[arnisandyz]

Something to keep in mind is that many/most systems have already been "pre-mixed" by the founder and his experiences! So if you see Remy Presas' Modern Arnis, then see Balintawak or see Edgar Sulite's Lameco or Rey Galang's Bakbakan then see illustrisimo, your seeing some things that are very similar. This might be a path to go since many of the principles will overlap as you research more about your current systems core art(s).