Belt Colours

[Gerry Seymour]

I Agree but I'd also add that any blue belt should be capable of that, and maybe that's a great example to ponder on.

The BJJ blue belt phenomenon, right? Why do so many leave after they get the blue one? I posit it's because they aren't into continuous self improvement, they wanted a badge and the very basics of the art. It's understandable, man, after long study, but it's also sad that for most people, a black belt is not something most people have time to get (unless it's a mill and you can just pay money for it). What's it 10 years for a BJJ black belt? OH well. I'd love a BJJ black belt, who has the time. Really, lend me some.

Right now, I'm pondering where to train next and I'm leaning boxing again. Haven't done that in about 10 years, but I'm ready, and the best part is the only belt is one that keeps my guts tight and in place so I don't herniate myself throwing hooks.

$69.99.

View attachment 29190

Is that what that thing is for?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Different styles and different schools have different belts and different colors and they go into different orders. You also have to take into account the requirements and difficulty of getting belts at one school vs another. For instance they say getting a purple belt in BJJ is like getting a black belt in most other styles, in terms of the time, skill requirements, and difficulty in getting it. And black isn't always the highest color, there are some styles with higher colors such as in Gracie Jiu Jitsu the highest belt is the red belt.

And even within the same art. I have a slower progression through the classical curriculum of my primary art, but use the same basic raking for students (which is based on that progression), so my students took a year or more to get their first rank, which would be more like 6 weeks to 6 months in most places.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Is that what that thing is for?

My guts need a lot of weight to keep them in check.

 

[GojuTommy]

Poster often write that they’re a green, orange or blue belt, but am I right in thinking this means nothing since it probably depends upon the art as to what colour is what level? Ihave no 9dea of a poster’s level from the colour of their belt! Does the Japanese ‘kyu’ system not exist in the USA for Japanese MA?

Kyu exists in US but a lot of new people may not really even understand what kyu means.

I always imagine those people are at their first or second rank beyond white.
However in my experience every style and organization has brown as the last before black.

Why do we have "high school diploma" when there's a difference between valedictorian and someone who graduated with a 1.0 GPA? Why do we have "college degree" when there's a difference between an associate's and a doctorate? Why do we have a post count on this site, when some people post a single sentence and other people post a whole chapter?

If you go to a Judo tournament, chances are people of the same kyu level have a similar experience level. If you go to a Taekwondo tournament, chances are most green belts are about the same level. It's not always the case, but it is enough times you can expect it.

It's really useful for individual schools. A belt will tell:

1. The instructors where you are in the curriculum, so they know what to teach you and to what level of detail
2. The students around where you are in the curriculum, so they know whether to look to you for guidance, if you are going to be good competition for them in sparring, or if they should be the one guiding you
3. The prospects around how long you've been going, so they know how much to judge the school based on you

For #1, if you are a green belt in my Taekwondo class, then I'm going to assume you know the basic kicks and stances. I'm going to teach you the green belt form and advanced kicks, and I'm going to go into more depth with you on the basic kicks and earlier forms than I would have in those classes.

For #2, if you are a green belt in Taekwondo class, then the white and yellow belts will be looking up to you. They know you've already passed a test on their forms, so if they have questions, they might ask you. A red belt isn't going to ask you about the red belt form, because they know you're not there yet. But they might have some tips on your green belt form.

For #3, prospective students will probably see the belt order on your website or your welcome packet. They're not really going to judge you based on your white belts, because you've had very little time with them. But the higher the belt color (especially black belts) and they will be judging the school based on them.

using competitions is a little misleading.

A lot of schools don’t compete at all, or if they do it’s only within their own dojo, or their own small organization.

Regular competition itself creates a standard.
A green belt that’s never competed before but been training 1 year won’t likely have the same skill level as a green belt with 1 year of training who has done 3 or 4 competitions in that year. Same for brown belts with 4 years of training. The one competing for the first or second time in 4 years, probably won’t be on the same level as the 4 year brown belt that has competed 2-3 times a year since they started.

The weird variation in skill to time in training comes into play when you’re comparing people/schools that don’t regularly compete

 

[isshinryuronin]

The weird variation in skill to time in training comes into play when you’re comparing people/schools that don’t regularly compete

Just be aware that the skill you're talking about is only skill in the competitive sport aspect of karate. This does not necessarily mean those people/schools not competing are lacking in self-defense capability. Pre-sport Okinawan karate (prior to 1930) is very effective. Karate for sport entails a different set of rules, techniques, and tactics, some of which may be applicable to self-defense, and some which may not.

A noted master of Goju (ironically your namesake) has even proclaimed, "True karate can never be sport." This is my view as well, though a little competition can add some positive practice elements such as stress, tactics and a bit of danger.

 

[GojuTommy]

Just be aware that the skill you're talking about is only skill in the competitive sport aspect of karate. This does not necessarily mean those people/schools not competing are lacking in self-defense capability. Pre-sport Okinawan karate (prior to 1930) is very effective. Karate for sport entails a different set of rules, techniques, and tactics, some of which may be applicable to self-defense, and some which may not.

A noted master of Goju (ironically your namesake) has even proclaimed, "True karate can never be sport." This is my view as well, though a little competition can add some positive practice elements such as stress, tactics and a bit of danger.

Oh I agree to a point.

Point fighters likely couldn’t defend themselves from an angry Girl Scout.
However I’ll put my money money on a karateka who has a few ammy KB or MMA fights successfully defending themselves over a karateka that has never done full contact anything, but has trained for self defense in a self defense oriented dojo any day.

True karate has techniques not allowed in sport, but techniques not allowed in sport can also never be truly tested for effectiveness, and have a lot of misconceptions around them. Like the idea that if someone has you in an armbar, biting their leg is a good idea, or that scratching/gouging eyes will cause someone to immediately let go/stop what they’re doing.

 

[kfman]

I have a black belt. It holds my pants up.

 

[Hyoho]

Is that ‘yoin’ in Japanese?

Yes. Yoin

 

[Hyoho]

I have a black belt. It holds my pants up.

That's exactly what my mentor said. He was the youngest Kendo 6th Dan ranked after WWll but thought little of it.

 

[Gyakuto]

Kyu exists in US but a lot of new people may not really even understand what kyu means.

Good heavens! It’s not that difficult…an ascending, arbitrary, numerical ranking system…numbers rather than colours. But, if someone is 1st kyu, I know they’re next grade will be shodan…a ‘significant’ grade. If they’re 7th Kyu then they have a way to go and are relative beginners. Simple…numbers rather than colours……ohhhh I see the problem now…

 

[Gyakuto]

using competitions is a little misleading.

Yes I agree. Competitions have so many rules and prohibitions which pushes them far from effective combat…MMA being the probable exception. I was pretty good in competitions in my youth, but I’d probably have my hair ruffled and messed-up by a granny carrying a bunch of flowers on the way home from ‘bingo with the girls’!

 

[GojuTommy]

Good heavens! It’s not that difficult…an ascending, arbitrary, numerical ranking system…numbers rather than colours. But, if someone is 1st kyu, I know they’re next grade will be shodan…a ‘significant’ grade. If they’re 7th Kyu then they have a way to go and are relative beginners. Simple…numbers rather than colours……ohhhh I see the problem now…

Sure seems simple and obvious enough to us, but you have to remember for people outside of Japan, they’ve likely never hear do kyu before, and while during their promotion they might hear their kyu rank being announced unless specifically told they have no clue what that means, and are just focusing on the belt. After a while sure they’ll figure it out from context clues.

But people who are simply new and excited i wouldn’t expect to know what kyu means.

 

[Gyakuto]

Sure seems simple and obvious enough to us,

I bet most people understand the rankings of their favourite football team. "Your team is at number one, you friend's are at number 3rd, 6th and 45th " or even the far more complex horse racing gambling odds, but 8 up to 1 befuddles them? People have to go to school outside of Japan, don't they?

 

[GojuTommy]

I bet most people understand the rankings of their favourite football team. "Your team is at number one, you friend's are at number 3rd, 6th and 45th " or even the far more complex horse racing gambling odds, but 8 up to 1 befuddles them? People have to go to school outside of Japan, don't they?

If you put those football rankings or betting odds in Japanese I don’t think they’d understand them either.

People join martial arts knowing and generally understanding the belt system. Kyu is a word in a foreign language. Like I said after a little while I’m sure most people figure it out, but a kid excited for their first or second promotion will focus on what they recognize the most immediately. That’s all I’m saying. It’s easy to look at something with experienced eyes and say “it’s so simple and basic!”

 

[Gyakuto]

If you put those football rankings or betting odds in Japanese I don’t think they’d understand them either.

I think you are giving too little credence to the general public's intelligence. They can assimilate all the complex jargon from that film..the one with the golden robot...or Game of Thrones! Using the word 'kyu' is hardly a stretch. But you ask they which belt is higher, blue or purple? They'll have to make a complete guess

People join martial arts knowing and generally understanding the belt system.

White -->Yellow-->Orange, maybe. But what about blue, purple with white stripes, red and brown with 'my little pony' patches?

Kyu is a word in a foreign language.

So is 'Dathraki' or 'Ewok' but people soon understand what they mean with the study of their passion (GoT and the Golden Robot Fights, respectively)

Like I said after a little while I’m sure most people figure it out, but a kid excited for their first or second promotion will focus on what they recognize the most immediately. That’s all I’m saying. It’s easy to look at something with experienced eyes and say “it’s so simple and basic!”

I really think you underestimate people, GojuTommy.

 

[GojuTommy]

I think you are giving too little credence to the general public's intelligence. They can assimilate all the complex jargon from that film..the one with the golden robot...or Game of Thrones! Using the word 'kyu' is hardly a stretch. But you ask they which belt is higher, blue or purple? They'll have to make a complete guess

White -->Yellow-->Orange, maybe. But what about blue, purple with white stripes, red and brown with 'my little pony' patches?


So is 'Dathraki' or 'Ewok' but people soon understand what they mean with the study of their passion (GoT and the Golden Robot Fights, respectively)


I really think you underestimate people, GojuTommy.

I think you overestimate people.

I find it interesting that the entire premise of this discussion we’re having is “why don’t people just say their kyu rank instead of their belt”
I give a reason, you choose to argue that explanation, so maybe you’d like to offer another reason then?

 

[Gyakuto]

I think you overestimate people.

I find it interesting that the entire premise of this discussion we’re having is “why don’t people just say their kyu rank instead of their belt”
I give a reason, you choose to argue that explanation, so maybe you’d like to offer another reason then?

I think you’ll find this is a discussion board so I’m discussing the issue.

I refer you to the original start of the thread. Please reread, if you ever did.

But to recap, coloured belts are useless at denoting the wearers level except to those within the very same discipline. This is because there is no uniformity of colour graduation, or indeed, number of belts from beginning to shodan/blackbelt across all arts. The Japanese kyu system uses numbers, which are ubiquitous an used in every avenue of life and to land on the moon and stuff. Therefore it would make sense to quote ones kyu level rather than saying “pink belt with 2 my little pony patches“ for some meaningful idea of a person’s level to other people who might not be within the same style/school or martial art.

Your turn….

 

[GojuTommy]

I think you’ll find this is a discussion board so I’m discussing the issue.

I refer you to the original start of the thread. Please reread, if you ever did.

But to recap, coloured belts are useless at denoting the wearers level except to those within the very same discipline. This is because there is no uniformity of colour graduation, or indeed, number of belts from beginning to shodan/blackbelt across all arts. The Japanese kyu system uses numbers, which are ubiquitous an used in every avenue of life and to land on the moon and stuff. Therefore it would make sense to quote ones kyu level rather than saying “pink belt with 2 my little pony patches“ for some meaningful idea of a person’s level to other people who might not be within the same style/school or martial art.

Your turn….

Someone asked why don’t people post their kyu rank instead of their belt.

I gave an explanation, you disagree, I’d love to hear your explanation.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I think you are giving too little credence to the general public's intelligence. They can assimilate all the complex jargon from that film..the one with the golden robot...or Game of Thrones! Using the word 'kyu' is hardly a stretch. But you ask they which belt is higher, blue or purple? They'll have to make a complete guess

White -->Yellow-->Orange, maybe. But what about blue, purple with white stripes, red and brown with 'my little pony' patches?


So is 'Dathraki' or 'Ewok' but people soon understand what they mean with the study of their passion (GoT and the Golden Robot Fights, respectively)


I really think you underestimate people, GojuTommy.

I have to say @GojuTommy has a valid point. I came up in a system that used kyu designations alongside the colored belts. Students ALWAYS refer to themselves by belt color - no exceptions - in general discussion. Even the instructors do. If you asked someone their kyu rank, they'd have to think for a second unless they were 1st kyu.

The fact that kyu and dan number in opposite directions makes it inherently a bit harder to get straight than the colors. A few weeks in, most students know at least what the first two and the last (brown) colors are, but unless they were about to test, they likely didn't remember the kyu numbering.

Of course, someplace that uses the kyu numbering as a primary reference, folks would learn it soon enough. It's just a hair more complex than the visual guide of the colors. Mind you, we're not talking about them knowing how those colors would work in other groups, just their own.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I think you’ll find this is a discussion board so I’m discussing the issue.

I refer you to the original start of the thread. Please reread, if you ever did.

But to recap, coloured belts are useless at denoting the wearers level except to those within the very same discipline. This is because there is no uniformity of colour graduation, or indeed, number of belts from beginning to shodan/blackbelt across all arts. The Japanese kyu system uses numbers, which are ubiquitous an used in every avenue of life and to land on the moon and stuff. Therefore it would make sense to quote ones kyu level rather than saying “pink belt with 2 my little pony patches“ for some meaningful idea of a person’s level to other people who might not be within the same style/school or martial art.

Your turn….

Those numbers have barely more meaning than the colors, though. What does 5th kyu mean in your system? If you have 8 kyu ranks and I have 5, they are entirely different levels - your 5th being an intermediate rank, while mine is a beginner rank. The only thing that's the same is that we use numbers in the same order. It's not any clearer.