"Basic" poomsae.

[SahBumNimRush]

Man, I'm arriving late to this discussion.. . Looks like you've all covered it thoroughly. To put my .02 in on the matter, it sounds like it is what we call the Kicho Hyungs (which as Glenn stated come from Shotokan; Taikyoko Kata). We still teach them at white belt, although, to be honest, I tend to agree with DancingAlone on that they are not that valuable, if you are teaching the Pyung Ahn Hyungs (perhaps even the Palgwe Poomsae). To me they mainly focus on the lunging punch, which is a key technique in Shotokan. I mean, the first form is nothing but block to the down and lunging punch (both of which are executed in a front stance).. . Seems to me that these two movements (and the one stance) must be of high significance in Shotokan if so much emphasis was put on them in the very first form.

Is this what you are referring to?

Kicho Il Boo:

Kicho Ee Boo:

Kicho Sam Boo: (please excuse the door "bell")

 

[puunui]

What are all those things with handles hanging on the walls? How do you use those in class?

And I believe it is "taikyoku"

 

[SahBumNimRush]

What are all those things with handles hanging on the walls? How do you use those in class?

And I believe it is "taikyoku"

Thank you for the correction on the spelling sir. The straps on the walls are TRX suspension trainers. We do not use them in class really.. . I teach out of a gym right now, and this class room is used for various cardio/boot camp classes on off class nights (I only teach 2 classes back to back on Tuesday and Thursday evenings; 4 classes a week).

http://www.trxtraining.com/trx/landing_2.php?utm_source=mac&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=kwtest2

They have applications for my class as a cross training tool, but I don't have the time to spend on that right now in class.. .

 

[mastercole]

Man, I'm arriving late to this discussion.. . Looks like you've all covered it thoroughly. To put my .02 in on the matter, it sounds like it is what we call the Kicho Hyungs (which as Glenn stated come from Shotokan; Taikyoko Kata). We still teach them at white belt, although, to be honest, I tend to agree with DancingAlone on that they are not that valuable, if you are teaching the Pyung Ahn Hyungs (perhaps even the Palgwe Poomsae). To me they mainly focus on the lunging punch, which is a key technique in Shotokan. I mean, the first form is nothing but block to the down and lunging punch (both of which are executed in a front stance).. . Seems to me that these two movements (and the one stance) must be of high significance in Shotokan if so much emphasis was put on them in the very first form.

Is this what you are referring to?

Your stances and motions are very close to the Kukkiwon standard. Other Moo Duk Kwan groups I have seem like to use a very long and very wide stance, not all, just some.

 

[StudentCarl]

Your stances and motions are very close to the Kukkiwon standard. Other Moo Duk Kwan groups I have seem like to use a very long and very wide stance, not all, just some.

I'm hoping not to pull this thread adrift, but want to ask if you know anything about the history of the long, wide front stance. My lineage is Moo Duk Kwan (GM Kim Joon Yong). We are taught the long wide stance, yet we supposedly adhere to Kukkiwon standards which of course uses the narrow stance. I use the long, wide stance when required, but it messes up performance of forms (try Taegeuk Il Jang with a wide stance and see where you end up).

Thanks,
Carl

 

[mastercole]

I'm hoping not to pull this thread adrift, but want to ask if you know anything about the history of the long, wide front stance. My lineage is Moo Duk Kwan (GM Kim Joon Yong). We are taught the long wide stance, yet we supposedly adhere to Kukkiwon standards which of course uses the narrow stance. I use the long, wide stance when required, but it messes up performance of forms (try Taegeuk Il Jang with a wide stance and see where you end up).

Thanks,
Carl

I believe that all variety of stances came from weapons warfare training from most all cultures. In Taekwondo I think we can specifically traces them back to several places. One, would be several students of the Okinawan masters who were teachers of our Korean seniors. Another would be our Korean seniors who learned or were influenced by Chinese martial arts. Korean Indigenous folk Taekkyon, and organized Taekkyon did not have such stances, or really any standard stances.

Kukkiwon standard for Poomsae has what can be considered a shorter, more narrow stance as compared to what we had use to in the West (especially USA). However, variant stances, such as longer and wider stances are contained with in the Kukkiwon curriculum. They are just not found in the Poomsae.

When I see Poomsae performed with non standard stances or techniques, I think to my self the performer is using variants. I don't think there is such a thing as an incorrect stance, but I think Poomsae can be practiced incorrectly, in regard to the standard for Poomsae.

 

[puunui]

Korean Indigenous folk Taekkyon, and organized Taekkyon did not have such stances, or really any standard stances.

Funny you should say that because GM Ji says that hapkido does not have any stances, or at least they are not thought of in the same way as say Japanese martial arts.

 

[mastercole]

Funny you should say that because GM Ji says that hapkido does not have any stances, or at least they are not thought of in the same way as say Japanese martial arts.

Taekkyon GM Yong Bok Lee said that Taekkyon was not from weapons based training, which required shifting stances, Taekkyon was a part natural movement from using the legs and arms just like walking, more specifically climbing up and down mountains carrying heavy loads, hence a squatting/bending the leg motion. The movement does not pause, it is continuous like walking. You can see it in the walk of elderly Korean men and women in the mountain village towns it also comes out in the ancient folk dances.

 

[puunui]

I'm hoping not to pull this thread adrift, but want to ask if you know anything about the history of the long, wide front stance.

The long wide stance, especially the long wide front stance, came from sparring. For example, in taekwondo competition training, there is something called a "cover punch". When doing the cover punch, you step at a 30 degree angle (more or less) while driving your punch at that same angle. You need to do this so you can catch your opponent flush in the body with your punch, because his body is naturally angled like that. When karate practitioners in japan they did the same thing, angle in on their opponent so they could catch them flush like a T, the short bar representing the opponent's body, and the long bar representing driving into your opponent. So they would do that in sparring. However, when doing forms or kata work, everyone was so used to stepping out and "wide" like that that they did it in forms as well. So the long wide stance is actually driving through your opponent at an angle during sparring, which was popularized by FUNAKOSHI Yoshitaka Sensei; that was his style, driving deep and long on his punches. So it was a sparring outgrowth and was not for "stability" or to build your legs or any of the other reasons made up by instructors over the years to explain the long wide stances' validity and worth.

 

[lifespantkd]

The long wide stance, especially the long wide front stance, came from sparring. For example, in taekwondo competition training, there is something called a "cover punch". When doing the cover punch, you step at a 30 degree angle (more or less) while driving your punch at that same angle. You need to do this so you can catch your opponent flush in the body with your punch, because his body is naturally angled like that. When karate practitioners in japan they did the same thing, angle in on their opponent so they could catch them flush like a T, the short bar representing the opponent's body, and the long bar representing driving into your opponent. So they would do that in sparring. However, when doing forms or kata work, everyone was so used to stepping out and "wide" like that that they did it in forms as well. So the long wide stance is actually driving through your opponent at an angle during sparring, which was popularized by FUNAKOSHI Yoshitaka Sensei; that was his style, driving deep and long on his punches. So it was a sparring outgrowth and was not for "stability" or to build your legs or any of the other reasons made up by instructors over the years to explain the long wide stances' validity and worth.

Thanks so much for this, Glenn!

Cynthia

 

[StudentCarl]

The long wide stance, especially the long wide front stance, came from sparring. For example, in taekwondo competition training, there is something called a "cover punch". When doing the cover punch, you step at a 30 degree angle (more or less) while driving your punch at that same angle. You need to do this so you can catch your opponent flush in the body with your punch, because his body is naturally angled like that. When karate practitioners in japan they did the same thing, angle in on their opponent so they could catch them flush like a T, the short bar representing the opponent's body, and the long bar representing driving into your opponent. So they would do that in sparring. However, when doing forms or kata work, everyone was so used to stepping out and "wide" like that that they did it in forms as well. So the long wide stance is actually driving through your opponent at an angle during sparring, which was popularized by FUNAKOSHI Yoshitaka Sensei; that was his style, driving deep and long on his punches. So it was a sparring outgrowth and was not for "stability" or to build your legs or any of the other reasons made up by instructors over the years to explain the long wide stances' validity and worth.

Thank you for the explanation, sir. This fits well with the reasons we are given, though we are also taught that the angular movement helps move you offline from a straightforward attack. With this and your earlier comment wondering if the poster was Moo Duk Kwan related because of his experience with Taikyoku/Kibon 1, did the Moo Duk Kwan have or preserve more connection longer with Shotokan or either FUNAKOSHI Sensei than other kwan?

 

[puunui]

With this and your earlier comment wondering if the poster was Moo Duk Kwan related because of his experience with Taikyoku/Kibon 1, did the Moo Duk Kwan have or preserve more connection longer with Shotokan or either FUNAKOSHI Sensei than other kwan?

I do not believe there ever was any sort of direct connection between the shotokan and the moo duk kwan. There was only an indirect relationship, through GM LEE Won Kuk who was GM HYUN Jong Myun's teacher. GM Hyun worked at the Seoul Railroad Station with Moo Duk Kwan GM HWANG Kee, and was actually the first instructor for the Moo Duk Kwan, so that is the indirect connection. However, GM HWANG Kee's Soo Bahk Do organization continues to teach the shotokan forms, so there is that connection. The other kwan discontinued the training and teaching those shotokan forms, although you have pockets of practitioners under individual instructors continuing to teach those forms. GM SON Duk Sung's organization the World Taekwondo Association for example, still teaches those shotokan forms, even though his lineage goes through the shotokan through GM LEE Won Kuk and the Chung Do Kwan.