Bas Rutten
- Thread starter Touch Of Death
- Start date
Eternal Beginner
Brown Belt
All I can say is after seeing his "warm-ups" and his drills, anyone who is at all interested in improving their kickboxing and training in a very sport specific way should definitely look into the Bas Rutten workout DVD's.
I can now see why the guys who are training under him in the IFL have improved by leaps and bounds...the guy definitely knows what he is doing.
And as far as 'principles' such as the 220 one mentioned earlier, I have to say his practices are the furthest thing from that. All of the techniques we were shown were very workable for the smaller people in the class and he was incredibly patient with showing myself (the smallest person attending) and my son how to make all the techniques applicable for our stature and strength. If he truly relied only on his size and brute strength, these would not be techniques easily adaptable to smaller people such as myself.
I haven't been to lots of seminars, but I have to say this one was worth every penny. The little things he showed us, such as the combos that have worked in his experience and how to fight the "mental" fight as well as the physical one were fantastic. I feel sorry for anyone who passed this seminar up and impressed with how many professional fighters put their egos aside and just listened like little kids at story time so that they could benefit from someone with the amount of experience that Bas has.
It was nice to see blackbelts from other systems do the seminar just like any other student. Like my sig says "Every act of conscious learning requires the willingness to suffer an injury to one's self-esteem". Fortunately the pro fighters and bb's were willing to risk it and Bas treated them with respect so it wasn't necessary. Good show by everyone involved.
I can now see why the guys who are training under him in the IFL have improved by leaps and bounds...the guy definitely knows what he is doing.
And as far as 'principles' such as the 220 one mentioned earlier, I have to say his practices are the furthest thing from that. All of the techniques we were shown were very workable for the smaller people in the class and he was incredibly patient with showing myself (the smallest person attending) and my son how to make all the techniques applicable for our stature and strength. If he truly relied only on his size and brute strength, these would not be techniques easily adaptable to smaller people such as myself.
I haven't been to lots of seminars, but I have to say this one was worth every penny. The little things he showed us, such as the combos that have worked in his experience and how to fight the "mental" fight as well as the physical one were fantastic. I feel sorry for anyone who passed this seminar up and impressed with how many professional fighters put their egos aside and just listened like little kids at story time so that they could benefit from someone with the amount of experience that Bas has.
It was nice to see blackbelts from other systems do the seminar just like any other student. Like my sig says "Every act of conscious learning requires the willingness to suffer an injury to one's self-esteem". Fortunately the pro fighters and bb's were willing to risk it and Bas treated them with respect so it wasn't necessary. Good show by everyone involved.
OP
OP
One more thing and I'll shut up. Punching with your elbows winged out damages you. The ball joint was not meant to punch while still in socket. Its a sport and an effective one at that, but you will have terrible arthritis and shoulder problems for the rest of your life after your short lived career. Enjoy.
Sean
Depends on what kind of punch you are talking about. Hooks and roundhouse punches generally need to have the elbow up, to clear the opponent's shoulder. With proper core integration, shoulder use should not be a big problem.
OP
OP
Your motion either damages you or heals you. There is no should not be a problem claus.
Sean
Shotgun Buddha
Brown Belt
The arm was not meant for punching at ALL. Its meant for picking up rocks and bludgeoning other primates with it. Our body isn't designed as a natural weapon, we're tool makers.
So any method of punching is in effect going to be bad for us. For example, full extension punches where you staighten the elbow completely will end up damaging the elbow, especially if the practioner is still growing.
You know, those lovely straight punches which show up in karate? Teaching them to kids and and teens is a good way to really do some damage to them.
Shotgun Buddha
Brown Belt
Im not either. I mean most physical training thats beneficial for your muscles for example, works by tearing the muscle so it grows back stronger.
OP
OP
I'm talking about your shoulder joint. The body was not meant to with stand impact with the ball still in socket. The pretty Karate punches deal with this problem by taking the ball out of socket before impact. This is the ancient wisdom. And children should learn this... really.
Sean
Shotgun Buddha
Brown Belt
They also cause over-extension of the elbow and damage it instead. The body wasn't meant for striking at ALL, so any and all forms of striking can have repercussions later. The "safest" strikes involve elbow knee strikes themselves, because they are less fragile.
This is modern biology and science.
When someone is still growing the risks and effects of over-extension are much higher. So no, kids should not be learning this, if they keep it up there's a high risk of damage.
Cruentus
Grandmaster
Boxing punches, at least the old style boxing punches, are the safest and least damaging way to punch anything. At least, that is my belief.
I have a multitude of clients who I have taught to punch this way; and they all report that it feels much better on their joints and body compared to other punching methods they have done (everything from modern boxing to "karate"); and it is more combat effective. This is even though these clients and myself do this on bags without gloves or wristwraps.
The reason why injuries occur isn't specifically because of "winged" elbows. It is because of a lack of support system. You can only strike as hard as your weakest link will allow. So your knuckles must be supported by your hand, which must be supported by your wrist, which must be supported by your elbow joint and arm, which must be supported by the ball joint of the shoulder, which must be supported by the body.
This is what Dempsey calls your "power line;" it is your support system that allows you to use the maximum amount of muscle/skelatel groupings to do the job. It is literally a line of support that runs from the center of your body to the middle of your fist (more towards the ring finger).
If you try to force a particular knuckle or knuckels to land, as most martial arts systems do, you are often violating your power line, thus hitting with a weaker support system, thus opening yourself up for injury. Most modern "karate" punches will result in a trauma to the puncher if the punch does not land straight on; this is why with that method you don't see many hooks or uppercuts. Most Modern Boxing/kickboxing has the aid of gloves and wrist wraps, so techniques such as turning the punch completely over to land the top 2 knuckles developed. Hooks and uppercuts are often done well, but straights can cause trauma. This has led to rotator cuff injuries being probably the most common that I have seen among modern boxers or kickboxers.
But, you can still hit along your power line with straights, hooks, uppercuts, wild swings, or "winged" elbows; you just have to train with this power line in mind. This will maximize your power and reduce the potential for injury.
I will say that unless someone is actually hitting with some power rather then demoing, it is difficult to tell if someone is hitting along their power line or not. I will say that with bas Rutten, he appears to be hitting along the power line when he competes. That is partly why he is as old as he is and still healthy and competing and training fighters.
Paul
I have a multitude of clients who I have taught to punch this way; and they all report that it feels much better on their joints and body compared to other punching methods they have done (everything from modern boxing to "karate"); and it is more combat effective. This is even though these clients and myself do this on bags without gloves or wristwraps.
The reason why injuries occur isn't specifically because of "winged" elbows. It is because of a lack of support system. You can only strike as hard as your weakest link will allow. So your knuckles must be supported by your hand, which must be supported by your wrist, which must be supported by your elbow joint and arm, which must be supported by the ball joint of the shoulder, which must be supported by the body.
This is what Dempsey calls your "power line;" it is your support system that allows you to use the maximum amount of muscle/skelatel groupings to do the job. It is literally a line of support that runs from the center of your body to the middle of your fist (more towards the ring finger).
If you try to force a particular knuckle or knuckels to land, as most martial arts systems do, you are often violating your power line, thus hitting with a weaker support system, thus opening yourself up for injury. Most modern "karate" punches will result in a trauma to the puncher if the punch does not land straight on; this is why with that method you don't see many hooks or uppercuts. Most Modern Boxing/kickboxing has the aid of gloves and wrist wraps, so techniques such as turning the punch completely over to land the top 2 knuckles developed. Hooks and uppercuts are often done well, but straights can cause trauma. This has led to rotator cuff injuries being probably the most common that I have seen among modern boxers or kickboxers.
But, you can still hit along your power line with straights, hooks, uppercuts, wild swings, or "winged" elbows; you just have to train with this power line in mind. This will maximize your power and reduce the potential for injury.
I will say that unless someone is actually hitting with some power rather then demoing, it is difficult to tell if someone is hitting along their power line or not. I will say that with bas Rutten, he appears to be hitting along the power line when he competes. That is partly why he is as old as he is and still healthy and competing and training fighters.
Paul
Nice posts, Shotgun and Tulisan. I was not really understanding what TOD meant. I know there is nothing intrinsically wrong with the "winged" punches. Many folks use them all the time. No more damaging than any other type of punch - assuming proper mechanics.
TOD - Can you elaborate on this? I am not aware of any punching style that deliberately takes 'the ball out of the socket' .
TOD - Can you elaborate on this? I am not aware of any punching style that deliberately takes 'the ball out of the socket' .
Cyber Ninja
Green Belt
I don't see what the big fuss is over this. Either you like the guy's methods or you don't. You can either attend his seminar or chose to stay home. Personally, I like the guy...he has a comedic personality. However, you cannot argue with his credibility in MMA competition. I like his instructional videos. Would I use everything he shows on tape? More than likely no, but I have found a few of his techniques useful.
Just my two cents...
Just my two cents...
OP
OP
I didn't say teach them wrong.
Sean
OP
OP
When your elbow is anchored you are allowed a more extended punch that is by defenition aligned with your body. I will conceed this method takes conditioning and know how, but that is the whole point of training. I would not recomend teaching kids to keep the elbow winged out because they lack conditioning. Train them to do it right and they won't hurt themselves... unless of course they quit and try to punch like that ten years later. Allright you guys have a small point, but a hat will cover that up.:uhyeah:
Sean
Shotgun Buddha
Brown Belt
You're missing the point, this has nothing to do with how that type of karate punch is taught. Its the technique itself. Punching that way with your arm fully straightened puts too much pressure on the elbow joint, the shock will damage the ligiments.
This is an especially big problem with teens, and similar effect occurs to their knee joints.
OP
OP
First of all, I never said lock out the elbow. This is a resistance punch, and it is not recomended for a person standing at contact range. Our students know that if you don't feel it at the verticle, you abandon this punch. Its not all that difficult.
Sean
