Bart Cham Dao Swordmanship

[hpclub1000]

Hello all

I have recently been learning the Bart Cham Dao and think what a wonderful form this is. I know it is considered by some to be redundant in todays society but....so what. i'm learning it for the traditional aspect of the art.

It has got my thinking about how good Wing Chun practicioners can really become in swordmanship in comparison with other Chinese or Japanese Arts that are specifically dedicated to use of the swords. There must have been so much information lost over the generations that has diluted our skill with the Dao.

I know there is another site on this Forum about swordmanship that this thread might be better served but I was wondering from a Wing Chun practicioners perspective what your thoughts were?

PS Im also posting this on a rival Wing Chun Forum as there are differing members.

Regards

 

[mook jong man]

Hello all

I have recently been learning the Bart Cham Dao and think what a wonderful form this is. I know it is considered by some to be redundant in todays society but....so what. i'm learning it for the traditional aspect of the art.

It has got my thinking about how good Wing Chun practicioners can really become in swordmanship in comparison with other Chinese or Japanese Arts that are specifically dedicated to use of the swords. There must have been so much information lost over the generations that has diluted our skill with the Dao.

I know there is another site on this Forum about swordmanship that this thread might be better served but I was wondering from a Wing Chun practicioners perspective what your thoughts were?

PS Im also posting this on a rival Wing Chun Forum as there are differing members.

Regards

As with every other aspect of fighting a lot of its going to depend on the attributes of the individuals involved.

But apparently Wong Shun Leung sparred a champion western fencer and beat him , the fencer complained and said it was unfair because Wong had two blades , so Wong gave him a second blade and beat him again.

They are very formidable weapons in the hands of someone who knows what they are doing.
But in my opinion some schools seem to teach them too early , it should be some where near the end of the system .

By this time the student has a solid grounding in the other forms , the wrists are properly strengthened , mobility and stance has been developed to a sufficient degree etc.

Any earlier than that and the chances are the knives are just going to be knocked out of your hands or any attempted deflection of a heavy weapon will fail because of a lack of wrist strength and a solid stance.

 

[KamonGuy2]

Nice post. The thing with the wing chun knives is that it was originally designed to incorperate efficient moves, designed to be learnt in the quickest space of time.

Japanese sword masters take years to learn their art but are very precise with their techniques. In wing chun, the movements are mere extensions of wing chun techniques and are designed to be quick and efficient
A friend of mine equated samurai swords to kicks, and the wing chun knives to hands.

There are some great books out there which go deep into the theory work of wing chun knifework (Randy Williams, Shaun Rawcliffe etc), and I know that everyone has their own take on it

 

[Poor Uke]

I know it is considered by some to be redundant in todays society but....so what. i'm learning it for the traditional aspect of the art.

I think there are alot of atributes that can be gained from the form/

It has got my thinking about how good Wing Chun practicioners can really become in swordmanship in comparison with other Chinese or Japanese Arts that are specifically dedicated to use of the swords. There must have been so much information lost over the generations that has diluted our skill with the Dao.

Not sure about comparisons and all that, but Niten Ichi-ryū sprang to mind when reading your post, as a Japanese style that incorporates two swords. Also there are various Wudang double sabre forms and the like sprinkled throughout Chinese martial arts.

Do you or anybody at your kwoon practice against the pole?

Damn this post has made me want to back and study the knives again....so much to do......so little time.

Nice post BTW

 

[geezer]

They are very formidable weapons in the hands of someone who knows what they are doing.
But in my opinion some schools seem to teach them too early , it should be some where near the end of the system .By this time the student has a solid grounding in the other forms , the wrists are properly strengthened , mobility and stance has been developed to a sufficient degree etc.

This is the approach taken by the organization I belong to. I agree with you about waiting, Mook, as far using the BCD to improve your empty handed skills. The downside is that almost nobody knows the whole BCD form and applications. I'm considered a senior member and I've only trained about half of our BCD set. From what I've seen, it's practical only because it builds so directly on what I already know. And since so few people in our lineage know this stuff, there isn't much opportunity to train to actually use it. To be honest, to only weapons sparring I do is in Escrima.

 

[Ken Morgan]

I admit I just had to find video’s on the style you’re talking about.

There are a lot of similarities to Niten Ichi-ryū, but then there should be. You have two swords against one, and there are only so many ways to move a pair of swords against a single.

Though a great deal depends on the experience of the practitioners and how aggressive they are. I’d bet on an experienced swordsman with a single sword, over a lesser experienced one with two any day.

I’d always take the player with more experience, no matter how many swords they had.

Also I wouldn’t put much into the fact that they beat a fencer, I know many kendo people that can do that, and I’ve yet to see a kendo player beat a Naganata player.

Whatever, my dad can beat up your dad…..

 

[hpclub1000]

Thanks for responses guys.

I have practiced some of the applications from the form aginst the Gwan which is exceptional fun. It really has reinforced the fact that there are so many intricate details that need to be appreciated. Even just the fact of making your Doa become one with you as an extension of your body.

I have to say that i think because the Dao are the last things to learn in the system that there won't be enough people familiar with the intracacies of swordmanship for Wing Chun practicioners to become trult skilled as perhaps our ancestors once were out of necessity for survival.

Nevertheless its something I really want to understand more and I will certainly look at the videos and books you mention.

 

[AidanO]

But apparently Wong Shun Leung sparred a champion western fencer and beat him , the fencer complained and said it was unfair because Wong had two blades , so Wong gave him a second blade and beat him again.

There's a problem here, the vast vast majority of Fencers (especially since you said champion) fence with the foil, 'sabre' and epee. They aren't real swords, they move differently. They're sportsmen aiming for points. Yes they have very fast reflexes, but many of their techniques are wrong for actual swordsmanship. They tend to over-commit and leave themselves open to sideways movement (since in fencing you're only allowed back and forth.)

Though a great deal depends on the experience of the practitioners and how aggressive they are. I’d bet on an experienced swordsman with a single sword, over a lesser experienced one with two any day.

This is absolutely correct, it comes down to the skill involved. Many traditionally trained swordsmen are cagey and rarely leave openings if they can avoid it. Plus, it's a lot harder to trap someones blade than their arm. A good Jian swordsman will let you try deflecting his blade off and circle his wrist to bring the blade back at you. Making it VERY difficult to close and reach with the shorter blade. That said an experienced guy with the Butterfly swords against an inexperienced jian swordsman will probably close before he can get the blade back to you.

Also I wouldn’t put much into the fact that they beat a fencer, I know many kendo people that can do that, and I’ve yet to see a kendo player beat a Naganata player.

One of my friends was telling me about a Kenjutsu sensei that was demonstrating against a naginata or yari (I forget.) He was an -extremely- skilled swordsman and it took all his skill just to stay in the game. Let alone a conclusive win. Polearms are nasty nasty things to come against. Good bit is, they're even rarer than swords these days. That said, the good bit about fighting a polearm is that if you DO manage to close with them the entire length of your blades is dangerous, while they're pushing you away with a blunt rod. (Until they can get an end around.)

 

[mook jong man]

There's a problem here, the vast vast majority of Fencers (especially since you said champion) fence with the foil, 'sabre' and epee. They aren't real swords, they move differently. They're sportsmen aiming for points. Yes they have very fast reflexes, but many of their techniques are wrong for actual swordsmanship. They tend to over-commit and leave themselves open to sideways movement (since in fencing you're only allowed back and forth.)

Wong Shun Leung was a very exceptional man , he probably could have beat him with two chopsticks.



This is absolutely correct, it comes down to the skill involved. Many traditionally trained swordsmen are cagey and rarely leave openings if they can avoid it. Plus, it's a lot harder to trap someones blade than their arm. A good Jian swordsman will let you try deflecting his blade off and circle his wrist to bring the blade back at you. Making it VERY difficult to close and reach with the shorter blade. That said an experienced guy with the Butterfly swords against an inexperienced jian swordsman will probably close before he can get the blade back to you.

One of my friends was telling me about a Kenjutsu sensei that was demonstrating against a naginata or yari (I forget.) He was an -extremely- skilled swordsman and it took all his skill just to stay in the game. Let alone a conclusive win. Polearms are nasty nasty things to come against. Good bit is, they're even rarer than swords these days. That said, the good bit about fighting a polearm is that if you DO manage to close with them the entire length of your blades is dangerous, while they're pushing you away with a blunt rod. (Until they can get an end around.)

Unless it is the Wing Chun pole where the practitioner is trained to generate short range power at any point along the entire length of the pole.

 

[AidanO]

Unless it is the Wing Chun pole where the practitioner is trained to generate short range power at any point along the entire length of the pole.

And then, once again it comes down to the skill of the practitioner. A swordsman who actually manages to close with a polearm is probably far more skillful. And if he's a Taiji swordsman, he'll just absorb the energy while slashing them open. The advantage shifts once the shorter weapon is well inside the guard. Again it comes down to individual skill but there is definite ranges where certain weapons have an advantage.

 

[AidanO]

Coming back to this, my previous post could be taken as a My style vs Your style. Which it wasn't meant to be. Simply that 9 times out of 10, the more skilled MAist or the one with a defined advantage wins. Regardless of style. There's counters for everything.