Atrocities Like This Make You Wonder ...

[WC_lun]

It is sad that before Russia invaded Adganastan, the culture there was changing from the inside. Women were allowed education in many parts, especially Kabul. There were even women doctors practicing medicine. Then Russia invaded and the Taliban took power over from them. Then regression happened for women's rights in a large way.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

It is sad that before Russia invaded Adganastan, the culture there was changing from the inside. Women were allowed education in many parts, especially Kabul. There were even women doctors practicing medicine. Then Russia invaded and the Taliban took power over from them. Then regression happened for women's rights in a large way.

If you go back through the history of moderate Islam, there are many lessons to be learned. The middle east was at one time becoming quite cosmopolitan, very 'Western', very secular in some ways. However, democracy was not the way this was occurring. It was through strongman dictatorships and kings whom the West pandered to. The revolution in Iran that overthrew the US-supported Shah was the first crack in the foundation that was being built. We almost had something good happening, but now it is all ruined; and the extreme right in the West aims to keep the extremist Muslims in power by insisting that all of Islam is our enemy. We build our own enemy, empower him, drive the moderates into his corner, all because we're spoiling for a good long religious war. So nice. I can't tell you how many times I read the hatred and venom spilling out of our own people and just want to throw up. Yes, the Soviets have some blame in this too, but so does the USA. Not something most Americans want to hear.

 

[granfire]

It is sad that before Russia invaded Adganastan, the culture there was changing from the inside. Women were allowed education in many parts, especially Kabul. There were even women doctors practicing medicine. Then Russia invaded and the Taliban took power over from them. Then regression happened for women's rights in a large way.

Not sure how things went before the russians went in, but they certainly were supportive of the system.

Which meant in turn the West was against it, just because. So goody, we are at fault, for supporting and arming the reactionary forces.
And fueling the 30 year civil war.

And yet, I get flak for stating that women's rights in the West are not that stable of a thing, that a great deal of men secretly envy their Middle Easter counterparts for being able to chain the woman to the hearth.

 

[Tgace]

You should get flak...its untrue. A few nuts maybe, a "great deal"??? Only if you buy into that "war on women" pap.

 

[granfire]

You should get flak...its untrue. A few nuts maybe, a "great deal"??? Only if you buy into that "war on women" pap.

good.
and you are deliberately obtuse.
Just READ the comments. About birth control for starters, abortion and 'legitimate rape'
Those are all attempts to turn the clock back and throw us into the stone ages again.
There is no desire for equality. Let's keep the white male in power please.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

And yet, I get flak for stating that women's rights in the West are not that stable of a thing, that a great deal of men secretly envy their Middle Easter counterparts for being able to chain the woman to the hearth.

I doubt that many men envy that; just basing that on over 50 years of being an American male and knowing a lot of American males. I've never heard that sentiment expressed and I've never felt that way myself.

I will say, however, that those men who might want that sort of thing do not have to look far to find it. From your basic conservative religious household to the more, shall we say, fundamentalist-type religious in America, families can be found that range from a more 'traditional' role for women in the family all the way to women as basic property in all but name. And I'm talking about everything from the breakaway polygamist Mormon cults to the Lubavitcher to the Amish. Men who want that sort of life can find it here in America without looking all the way to the Middle East or Islam.

 

[GrandmasterP]

You got that right about the polygamist Mormons Bill.
Spent a while in Cedar City (plygville) Utah a couple of years back to do with work. Not much sign of female emancipation there.

 

[aedrasteia]

So obviously these countries dont REALLY have a problem with this..I mean "violence" is everywhere...people stab their girlfriends...nothing unusual here.

Whatev.

your perspective duly noted. and remembered.

 

[granfire]

I doubt that many men envy that; just basing that on over 50 years of being an American male and knowing a lot of American males. I've never heard that sentiment expressed and I've never felt that way myself.

I will say, however, that those men who might want that sort of thing do not have to look far to find it. From your basic conservative religious household to the more, shall we say, fundamentalist-type religious in America, families can be found that range from a more 'traditional' role for women in the family all the way to women as basic property in all but name. And I'm talking about everything from the breakaway polygamist Mormon cults to the Lubavitcher to the Amish. Men who want that sort of life can find it here in America without looking all the way to the Middle East or Islam.

you are skirting the point.

Naturally they don't SAY it.
But express it.

By statements I referred to and the actions you are mentioning.
Non of those 'gentlemen' give two figs about women's rights.
A woman has the right to cook his meals, wax his pole and bear his sons.
and to keep the yap shut.

 

[WC_lun]

Gran, while there is definitley a segment of the population that views women through the lens you mention, most men in the US do not. A large hint of this is our recent election. If you'll notice, those far right canidates that had opinions regarding women and womens' right that were more in line with the 18th century were not elected. It would be correct to say they lost a lot of the female vote, but they didn't do themselves any favors with most males either.

I think there definitley is a subset of our male population that view women as inferior, most men do view them as equalls. For most of us, that is just the norm.

 

[granfire]

Gran, while there is definitley a segment of the population that views women through the lens you mention, most men in the US do not. A large hint of this is our recent election. If you'll notice, those far right canidates that had opinions regarding women and womens' right that were more in line with the 18th century were not elected. It would be correct to say they lost a lot of the female vote, but they didn't do themselves any favors with most males either.

I think there definitley is a subset of our male population that view women as inferior, most men do view them as equalls. For most of us, that is just the norm.

Dein Wort in Gottes Ohr....

Then ones vocal about their ideas were not elected.

I don't believe that the sentiment is that rare.
Especially in the US a lot of men have a hard time living up to certain male stereotypes.
IMHO it makes a wonderful breeding ground for sexism and homophobia (another thing that is more common than different), add to that a large segment of the population that adheres to strict religious code....
No, they are not going to say it, they are not going to mean it when they stand across from you (though there are still pockets who prefer to go over a woman's head in certain areas, just ask women who drive big trucks or a shopping for such), but there is this disconnect.

We have come a great long way in a few decades, but currently the pendulum seems to be swinging backwards again.

 

[Touch Of Death]

What an odd mind you have. Who said anything about bombing them? Did anything I say to lead anyone to think I want them bombed? No one is saying they should adopt Western values, if bombing people is your idea of Western values perhaps we'd all be better without them. We are talking human rights, the right of women and girls not to be beaten, raped and forcably married off. To be able to go to school without being shot or having acid thrown over them, the right not to have to be pregenat at 13, the right to make choices.

If you have to troll do you think you could either be cleverer at it or do it somewhere else?

I should hope it is vastly different from yours, but why don't you take a look at the first thread and answer your own question.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

you are skirting the point.

Naturally they don't SAY it.
But express it.

By statements I referred to and the actions you are mentioning.
Non of those 'gentlemen' give two figs about women's rights.
A woman has the right to cook his meals, wax his pole and bear his sons.
and to keep the yap shut.

I don't think I skirted the point at all; I addressed it head on. I agree with you.

We also have to consider, in fairness, that some women choose that lifestyle of their own free will. One can argue that they have been trained, raised, or otherwise enculturated to believe that their religion, their God, or their society requires they take on a submissive role or simply a more traditional role in a patriarchal society, but given the option, they choose to remain where they are, being who they are. I don't know how you end that, or even if it is necessary to do so.

 

[Tez3]

I should hope it is vastly different from yours, but why don't you take a look at the first thread and answer your own question.

What first thread? No idea what you are talking about, I'm on this thread and I haven't said anything about bombing anyone.


As for it being about Moslems I've said several times it's isn't, it's about the customs of an area and there are several different beliefs and religions involved including Christians in these areas. The circumcision of women is campaigned against strongly I should add, I don't know what campaigns are active in America but I do know here female mutilation is a big issue in here and in Europe.

As for the idea that because it's a 'cultural' issue the fact thet women are so badly treated should be ignored is laughable. Should we ignore slavery, genocide, child soldiers just because it's not our 'culture'? the world found that South Africa's apartheid policies were unacceptable in modern time, they could not morally ignore it so political and economic pressure was brought to bear on the South Africans, civil rights groups campaigned all around the world. Anti Apartheid activists in South African were supported and helped....that's how we help these women. There are groups in these countries trying to help, they need support, we can lay both economic and political pressure to bear on these countries. It can be done, it's not good enough to wash your hands when so many are suffering. It's also no good excusing lack of action by saying that women chose to live like this, they don't have a choice at the moment, they need choices, if they still want to live like that after equality for women has been established then fine, at least they will have made informed choices. At the moment in Afghanistan the choice most women have is servitude or suicide. The few women who do step up, like the first female army officer were assassinated as was a female police chief.

The one good thing the Soviets did do while they occupied Afghan was to push for the equality of women, it did make the women of a generation realise there was more for them, how cruel it must have been to have been pushed back into the ways of the Taliban.

Groups in Afghan http://www.rawa.org/index.php and how they'd like help http://www.rawa.org/help.htm

http://www.afghanistanwomencouncil.org/ http://www.afghanistanwomencouncil.org/new-page-5.htm


http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/crime/violence-against-women-girls/female-genital-mutilation/

http://www.global-alliance-fgm.org/

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/2681191.stm