ATA success story!!!!

[dancingalone]

The Rolls and a Subaru Legacy Outback both have wheels, a reciprocating engine, a transmission, and all of the compenents necessary to get down the road. The Subaru will outperform the Rolls in most every category with the possible exception of straight line acceleration. Acceleration per dollar, however, and the Rolls is horrible. Not to mention that the Subaru will get you through weather and terrain that a Rolls can't.


Bingo, so the curriculum really is unimportant.

I bet I could take the Songahm curriculum and turn out good students with it. I'm making the point that the curriculum is fine. It's just the intentional lack of enforcement of martial standards that spoils the whole barrel of apples for them.

I don't know if I can cut them slack for this. Plenty of places in my area offer safe, clean, and brightly lit places in good locations, do it full time, and still seem to be able to keep the 'martial' in the mix.
Daniel

True enough. Let's just say I empathize. I know how much the rent is on one of the local ATA studios. It's not cheap.

 

[terryl965]

Daniel what you say is true, alot of Martial Art schools are fulltime and they make a living.The ATA schools in my aerea make a ton of money, I will not mention names here but the owner of the one in my area made gross over $725,000 and netted probaly about $175,000. Now to me that is so much larger than any real commercial school keeping the martial arts in any school. His money comes from having over 100 kids in an afterschool programe and also a summer camp. They change like $175.00 a month per child and an additional fee for weapons, leadership team,swat and some others. They do it like nobody else can, the are my hero's when it comes to making money with a simple prodect. I will never be an ATA school but man can they bring in the kids.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I bet I could take the Songahm curriculum and turn out good students with it. I'm making the point that the curriculum is fine. It's just the intentional lack of enforcement of martial standards that spoils the whole barrel of apples for them.

Sure, I'll bet you could. I got a 1977 Cadillac Coupe De'Ville to corner like a slot car, accelerate like a 5.0 GT Mustang, and brake like it had parachutes. Just one car, though. And lots of tuning and adjustment, and enough time and money spent that I could have bought a used 5.0.

True enough. Let's just say I empathize. I know how much the rent is on one of the local ATA studios. It's not cheap.

I empathize, but only to a point. I do not believe in misrepresenting a program.

Daniel

 

[dancingalone]

I empathize, but only to a point. I do not believe in misrepresenting a program.

At the risk of going off topic, I would speculate that there are many, many ma schools that purport to teach self-defense, yet do not in reality. I don't see the reason to single out the ATA for censure in this. It is what it is. At least the ATA is suitably famous or infamous, so someone really interested in hardcore training can do his research on the Internet about them. We can't say the same about many smaller studios who might suffer from some of the same afflictions.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

At the risk of going off topic, I would speculate that there are many, many ma schools that purport to teach self-defense, yet do not in reality. I don't see the reason to single out the ATA for censure in this. It is what it is. At least the ATA is suitably famous or infamous, so someone really interested in hardcore training can do his research on the Internet about them. We can't say the same about many smaller studios who might suffer from some of the same afflictions.

I don't single them out. This happens to be an ATA thread, however, so they are the ones being discussed.

I think, however that there is at least two major differences between the ATA and other MA schools that teach an MA but not SD:

Firstly, the ATA has systematized its methods and thus affect far more people than probably any of the others. Affect in a good way or a bad way really depends on what you're looking for; I make no value judgement.

Secondly, self defense is so broad in its definition that it can include almost anything. Yes, you can defend yourself with only punches. That is not as good as being able to do so with punches and kicks, which is not as good as being able to do so with punches, kicks, and grapples.

The representation part is not that they claim to teach self defense but don't. It is that the ATA represents itself as offering high end martial arts instruction, on par with or superior to what others offer, and this simply is not the case. They offer a high end martial arts themed after school/family fitness program. The rest is (based on virtually everthing that I have read, been told, or seen over a period of years) mediocre, mainly due to an emphasis on profitablility.

Then there is the poor ratio of dollars spend vs. quality of the product received. And that certainly not unique to the ATA. They just happen to have a ton of schools.

Daniel

 

[Gorilla]

This is the view of our "Former ATA dad". He wasted two years and they ripped him off.

He also stated the many ATA parents are very happy with the program because it gives them what they are looking for. Most would be scared to death of real Martial Arts instruction.

Most of the kids from ATA have a certain level of affluence and will most likely never need to defend themselves in a serious situation. Notice I said most likely
if they ever do their ATA instruction will be of minimum help.

 

[dancingalone]

Most of the kids from ATA have a certain level of affluence and will most likely never need to defend themselves in a serious situation. Notice I said most likely
if they ever do their ATA instruction will be of minimum help.

That's certainly the demographic of the school my niece and nephew go to. Lots of higher end cars in the parking lots and the moms frequently come to class to cheer their kiddos on since they frequently don't work. Not a bad set of customers to sell to.

I think most of the parents are fairly aware of the nature of the instruction they are getting. This is exactly what they want.

 

[Balrog]

Or something less grandiose, such as an ATA member using their ATA training to defend themselves or their family successfully.

Plenty of those stories around. Nobody really cares about tournament performance.

 

[Balrog]

Perhaps a minor distinction, but I think the ATA product (curriculum) is fine compared to most peers. They have the same teaching methods most other TKD schools employ: forms, one steps, and self-defense drills. Where they fall apart as a group is that their business really isn't about producing skilled martial artists. It's about selling a fun, friendly, martial themed activity to children 14 and under in a safe, clean, brightly lit and decorated location. It takes money to do that, hence partially the reason for the high fees.

Actually, no - it's not.

Also many ATA school owners are full-time, meaning the school is their living. I imagine it's tough to hoe that row while striving to teach to a high standard.

Why would that be an issue? I tell my students when they start that they only thing they buy is equipment and lessons. Everything else is earned. Doesn't seem to be an issue.

 

[Gorilla]

Plenty of those stories around. Nobody really cares about tournament performance.

Some people do! Many love Martial Sport. I happen to love Martial Sport, Martial Art and Self Defense.

 

[dancingalone]

Actually, no - it's not.


Why would that be an issue? I tell my students when they start that they only thing they buy is equipment and lessons. Everything else is earned. Doesn't seem to be an issue.

Balrog, I have no interest in bashing the ATA. That said, since you're 'talking' to me, I'll tell you where I am coming from. I have considerable experience taking my niece and nephew to class and to tournaments and observing the type of instruction, training, and competition both in the studio and away at tournaments where kids from other schools come. And what I said above is my impression of the ATA business model from observations made during this time. I'm fully aware my own observations will not match what is in the average ATA studio business plan, but that's hardly surprising. Reality frequently runs away from intentions.

 

[dancingalone]

Nobody really cares about tournament performance.

I disagree. My niece and nephew chase tournament points all the time, just like their peers, so they can earn those coveted 'championships'. It's pushed by the studio owners too.

 

[Carol]

I disagree. My niece and nephew chase tournament points all the time, just like their peers, so they can earn those coveted 'championships'. It's pushed by the studio owners too.

And those 6 foot trophies!

 

[Twin Fist]

I bet I could take the Songahm curriculum and turn out good students with it. I'm making the point that the curriculum is fine. It's just the intentional lack of enforcement of martial standards that spoils the whole barrel of apples for them.

QFT

the problem is that no one enforces standards, and then the crappy BB's go on to open schools and produce more crappy BB's and so on and so on and so on etc etc

 

[Balrog]

Balrog, I have no interest in bashing the ATA. That said, since you're 'talking' to me, I'll tell you where I am coming from. I have considerable experience taking my niece and nephew to class and to tournaments and observing the type of instruction, training, and competition both in the studio and away at tournaments where kids from other schools come. And what I said above is my impression of the ATA business model from observations made during this time. I'm fully aware my own observations will not match what is in the average ATA studio business plan, but that's hardly surprising. Reality frequently runs away from intentions.

Ok, I stand corrected.

I have tremendous issues with things like MASS, etc., which a lot of the school owners have gone to. The business model interferes with the primary objective of teaching quality martial arts. And that is specifically why I ignore that stuff when I hear people advocating it for business practices.

 

[Balrog]

I disagree. My niece and nephew chase tournament points all the time, just like their peers, so they can earn those coveted 'championships'. It's pushed by the studio owners too.

Well, I was speaking primarily from a self-defense aspect. However, I still train my students that when you go to tournaments, there are only four things that you MUST do:

1. Make a new friend.
2. Learn something new.
3. Do your very best.
4. Have fun!

If they do those four, then the tournament is a success. I don't care if they win or lose; what's important is that they overcame their issues about public performance and went out and gave it their best shot. If they get a medal, that's just the cherry on top of the whipped cream.

 

[terryl965]

Well I will only add this people judge you on what have you done lately and if your schools does tournaments than you are judge by win/lost record solely. Sorrow we all tell our student to ahve fun and such but in the end people come because you win, if you lost all the time people see you as not a good instructor, it is the same in any sport

 

[bignick]

There's a reason the term McDojo came about. To me they're a lowest common denominator franchising operation. That being said, there is nothing stopping any single ATA school from rising above and producing quality instruction, and some certainly do. However, that is not the base focus of the business model as others have said.

 

[Gorilla]

Well, I was speaking primarily from a self-defense aspect. However, I still train my students that when you go to tournaments, there are only four things that you MUST do:

1. Make a new friend.
2. Learn something new.
3. Do your very best.
4. Have fun!

If they do those four, then the tournament is a success. I don't care if they win or lose; what's important is that they overcame their issues about public performance and went out and gave it their best shot. If they get a medal, that's just the cherry on top of the whipped cream.

I agree with much of what you said...For my son this still applies he is only 13...But for my daughter this has changed when you are member of a National Team and you are fighting internationally, when you are competing @ a National Level for team spots and your coaches are putting in the time and energy to help you reach the highest level then winning becomes VERY Important. When people are investing time and $ in what you do then it raises the stakes. If someone is paying for you to go to Korea to compete. Its is your responsibility to do everything that you can (within the Rules) to win.

 

[mango.man]

Well, I was speaking primarily from a self-defense aspect. However, I still train my students that when you go to tournaments, there are only four things that you MUST do:

1. Make a new friend.
2. Learn something new.
3. Do your very best.
4. Have fun!

I am pretty sure that we have 4 rules at our school when we travel to competition:

1: Listen to your coaches instructions.
2: If you are wearing red, you are to kick the crap outta the person in blue.
3: If you are wearing blue, you are to kick the crap outta the person in red.
4: Win or lose, you better be a good sport about the outcome.