At least 20 dead in campus shootings

[MSTCNC]

An old friend from my Buj days in Baltimore runs the program at VTech...

I'll send an email to Karl and see what he says about his students, how to help, etc...

More later...

Andrew

 

[Grenadier]

Given the state of today's social mindset... would you really trust most people with the responsible use of a handgun?

If they have passed the course, passed the background checks, and possess all proper permits, then I have no qualms about that. They are no more likely to go around shooting people, than your average car driver would go around trying to run over people.

 

[MSTCNC]

Although I haven't heard back from Karl as of yet... I did just hear back from Ken Alenxander... one of the V-Tech Buj members...

----- Original Message -----
From: Andrew Goodwin
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2007 9:07 AM
Subject: Shidoshi Koch, The Buj, V-Tech, & prayers

To whom it may concern,

Just a quick note from an old Buj member... and friend of Shidoshis' Koch...

My thoughts, prayers, and good energy go out to you, your club, your campus, and your community...

If there is anything I can do from up here in DE... please ask...

Also, please know that the members of www.martialtalk.com are thinking of, and prayer for you all...

Peace be with you & Amituofo!

Your Brother in the arts,

Andrew

From: "Ken Alexander" <[email protected]>
To: "Andrew Goodwin" <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Shidoshi Kock, The Buj, V-Tech, & prayers
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 09:51:10 -0400

Thank you so much for keeping us in your thoughts and prayers, unfortunately I'm not sure there is anything to be done at this point except pray for those who have lost loved ones, the damage has already been done. Its hard to put something like this into perspective, and most of us are probably just trying to come to terms with what has happened and move forward. But, once again, thank you for thinking of us in our time of need.

Ken

 

[crushing]

Why they didn't cancel the classes after the first incident is still a mystery.

I've heard several times now that law enforcement thought the first shooting was thought to be an isolated incident specific to those two people with the perpetrator long gone.

 

[Tez3]

To most non Americans the carrying of guns is sheer madness and I'm afraid we will never understand it. Even though gun crime among young gang members is increasing here in certain places.... in imitation of the American gun/gang scene, there has been no call here for us all to be armed.

 

[Grenadier]

To most non Americans the carrying of guns is sheer madness and I'm afraid we will never understand it. Even though gun crime among young gang members is increasing here in certain places.... in imitation of the American gun/gang scene, there has been no call here for us all to be armed.

And you should be thankful that the British culture is what it is.

It's not a gun issue. It's always going to be a cultural issue, and to a lesser extent, an individual issue (which can be directly attributed to the culture).

 

[Bigshadow]

If they have passed the course, passed the background checks, and possess all proper permits, then I have no qualms about that. They are no more likely to go around shooting people, than your average car driver would go around trying to run over people.

I totally agree! I am with you on this Grenadier.

 

[Grenadier]

On another note, this was not the deadliest school massacre of all time. That awful "title" goes to the incident that happened in Bath, Michigan.

Just to show you what some people are capable of doing with commonly-available materials (and not a single firearm used):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster

It's scary that individuals like Andrew Kehoe can do this.

 

[MA-Caver]

On another note, this was not the deadliest school massacre of all time. That awful "title" goes to the incident that happened in Bath, Michigan.

Just to show you what some people are capable of doing with commonly-available materials (and not a single firearm used):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster

It's scary that individuals like Andrew Kehoe can do this.

No, it was the deadliest use of a gun on a school campus... The Bath tragedy was done with dynamite. Of course that's splitting hairs. Innocent students were killed at both.
The difference is that with the Bath incident we at least know the reason why... with this one at VT... unless they find someone who talked to the shooter or find his personal writings or whatever... we may never know why.

Talking to someone at work today about it they said: "...that was a sad way to show the world you're really crazy..." I replied, "no, that was a sad way to show determination."

 

[Jonathan]

If they have passed the course, passed the background checks, and possess all proper permits, then I have no qualms about that. They are no more likely to go around shooting people, than your average car driver would go around trying to run over people.

Sorry, I didn't mean that they'd go on rampages- but rather, that fire discipline would have to be exercised.

Consider the notion that, say, two students are armed. Gunman starts his spree. First student responds, firing on the gunman. Second student, from another classroom, acting on limited info, fires on the first student.

The problem with the idea isn't the people specifically, not their training- but that they probably aren't trained to respond to a group incident. That's what I meant by responsible. My fear would be that there'd be a 'me vs. them' mentality, where a knee-jerk reaction only brings more sorrow.

 

[CoryKS]

Michelle Malkin is reporting (she won't link to their site) that the Phelps Klan is planning to protest the funerals of the shooting victims. Vile bastards.

 

[jks9199]

I just listened to interviews on WRKO radio (Boston).

The story put forth is that it was believed that the initial slayings were seen to have "only" been matters of domestic violence and the police had received reports that the murderer was leaving the state.

When the Blacksburg police chief was pressed as to how he got this information, he said nothing. When asked what they Blacksburg police intended to do to track down the murderer that was allegedly leaving the state, he said nothing. When the college president was pressed as to why the initial slayings were deemed inconsequential in closing the school, he said nothing.

These murders....and the lack of action....are an absolute atrocity.

There are now 33 dead in Blacksburg with another 20 hospitalized for gunshot wounds.

I'm not quite sure what you expected a police chief, especially if it was the city of Blacksburg's chief, and not the chief of the campus police, to say regarding the sources of information or process of an active and on-going investigation. And this is still an active and on-going investigation, and will be for some days yet to come. As a general rule, details about the sources wouldn't be publicized for very important reasons, like protecting witnesses and avoiding contaminating the pool of witnesses. I spent more than enough time a few years ago chasing phantom white trucks in the DC area...

As to the decision on classes... There's a lot to look at. At the time of the first shooting, many students would already be on their way to class, or even in the buildings already; many of those students also live off campus, and the school admittedly lacks a very effective manner of notifying students. The initial evaluation by the officers who responded to the scene apparently led them to believe that it was not the precursor of a major event; I don't know what they found or didn't find there. I trust that everyone believes that every effort to prevent the second phase of this would have been taken had they had any practical warning ("disturbing" class writings that are being reported are not necessarily practical warnings; the police may not have had the ability to link the two deaths in the dorm to that student's writings -- especially if they were unaware of them!). The administration and the police, in their best reading of the facts at hand at the time, decided the safest course (for numerous reasons) was to allow class to go on as scheduled. Sadly, I'm confident that had they cancelled classes, the shooter would have likely found another location... and probably somewhere that the students, freed from class, were congretating.

To most non Americans the carrying of guns is sheer madness and I'm afraid we will never understand it. Even though gun crime among young gang members is increasing here in certain places.... in imitation of the American gun/gang scene, there has been no call here for us all to be armed.

And you should be thankful that the British culture is what it is.

It's not a gun issue. It's always going to be a cultural issue, and to a lesser extent, an individual issue (which can be directly attributed to the culture).

Guns are, for good or ill, part of the US culture. In fact, I'd even be willing to say they're part of the American culture. The use is one of them most diverse collections of differing cultures to be found anywhere -- and as a general rule, they get along. Britian (and most of Europe) is much, much more homogenous.

The US is also a much less regulated society than many other countries -- with much stronger protections for the individual against governmental intrusion. Even when that intrusion is at least well intentioned, and possibly for the best benefit of all.

And -- the simple fact is that gun bans here have not worked. It's quite difficult to own a pistol in NYC -- yet lots of people get shot there. Until recently, almost all firearms were prohibited in DC. Lots and lots of folks still managed to shoot each other...

But this is not really a case of "guns being violent." A gun is, in and of itself, simply an object. If I leave my gun on the table -- it's not going to kill anyone. Someone has to pick it up, and pull the trigger. This is clearly a case of a very violent individual, who made a series of choices to do harm to those around him. Blaming this incident on guns is as wrong as it is to blame everyone who ran, rather than attacking the shooter, or the school for not closing. Had he been unable to easily obtain a gun -- this guy would almost certainly have found some other way to express the violence in his soul. Depending on how he did this -- it might have been even more tragic; we can't simply assume he would have gone wild with a baseball bat without at least admitting the possibility of mass poisinings, bombings or even a simple vehicular rampage across an occupied picnic or playing field.

 

[Tez3]

Michelle Malkin is reporting (she won't link to their site) that the Phelps Klan is planning to protest the funerals of the shooting victims. Vile bastards.

Ah, I saw a documentary about this lot with Louis Theroux, a truly amazing bunch of sick moronic weirdos. Much as I champion free speech, they really make me wonder why I bother! I hope somehow they are stopped somehow, I'd look the other way for sure!

 

[CoryKS]

Ah, I saw a documentary about this lot with Louis Theroux, a truly amazing bunch of sick moronic weirdos. Much as I champion free speech, they really make me wonder why I bother! I hope somehow they are stopped somehow, I'd look the other way for sure!

I truly hope that Kansas never enacts a ban against funeral protests. Ol' Phred can't live forever, and I suspect that the warped son of a ***** will get quite a turnout at his own funeral.

 

[Touch Of Death]

I totally agree! I am with you on this Grenadier.

There are no back ground checks at gun shows.
Sean

 

[Touch Of Death]

On another note, this was not the deadliest school massacre of all time. That awful "title" goes to the incident that happened in Bath, Michigan.

Just to show you what some people are capable of doing with commonly-available materials (and not a single firearm used):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster

It's scary that individuals like Andrew Kehoe can do this.

The victim mentality strikes again.
Sean

 

[jetboatdeath]

There are no back ground checks at gun shows.
Sean

There is in Illinois.

 

[Jonathan]

Michelle Malkin is reporting (she won't link to their site) that the Phelps Klan is planning to protest the funerals of the shooting victims. Vile bastards.

Oh, yeah, and Jack Thompson and Dr. Phil are using this opportunity to turn this into some anti-video game crusade.

Not that ol' Jackie boy needed a reason or anything.

 

[Grenadier]

There are no back ground checks at gun shows.
Sean

This is not correct.

Most people selling firearms at gun shows are FFL holders, and by law, must conduct the standard NICS checks on all firearms purchases.

The only ones who are exempt from the background checks, are individuals making private sales. Such individuals are but a very small percentage of those making sales at gun shows, and when it comes down to it, it's up to the individual to be sure of the person to whom he is selling the firearm.

 

[Ping898]

For those wishing to make donations to help out VTech in the aftermath of this tragedy, they have created the Hokie Spirit Memorial fund


The fund has been established to cover expenses including but not limited to:

• Grief counseling
• Memorials
• Communication expenses
• Comfort expenses
• Incidental needs

http://www.vt.edu/tragedy/memorial_fund.php