Asking Sensei to be paid?

[jks9199]

This is definitely a commercial for profit business. With about 70 students @$120 usd a month. And yes I pay full dues myself. I go to demonstrations and recruiting events for the dojo, I sacrifice a lot of time even outside the 4 days a week I am at the dojo. It just feels like a slimy situation and I feel that it is time to go. Although I will feel guilty about leaving especially the students. It isn't their fault, and I am sure guilt trips will be a part of me leaving. I also am worried about leaving in bad standings with the Federation in Japan. If I ever want to teach this style on my own I would need to get their permission, and I don't want to rock the boat with them. So it is really tough for me.

So... you're paying for the privilege of saving him from actually working in his own business...

This is one of my biggest complaints about a lot of commercial martial arts schools. They get students trained up to where they can teach a class, then move them into "instructor training programs" which turn out to be teaching classes with very little new instruction or guidance on how to teach so that the school can offer programs and classes without actually paying people to teach. In fact, often they're paying a premium price for this "privilege." It's a rip-off, and a theft of the student's time if not money.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

This is definitely a commercial for profit business. With about 70 students @$120 usd a month. And yes I pay full dues myself. I go to demonstrations and recruiting events for the dojo, I sacrifice a lot of time even outside the 4 days a week I am at the dojo. It just feels like a slimy situation and I feel that it is time to go. Although I will feel guilty about leaving especially the students. It isn't their fault, and I am sure guilt trips will be a part of me leaving. I also am worried about leaving in bad standings with the Federation in Japan. If I ever want to teach this style on my own I would need to get their permission, and I don't want to rock the boat with them. So it is really tough for me.

Run away. Fast. You should not be paying 120 a month to do his job.

To share my own experience: similar to some others in here. At an old dojo, there were two head instructors; one got a pretty bad shoulder injury and couldn't teach for a bit. As a result, I helped assist (not teach just assist) classes twice a week. I didn't ask for anything. The instructor not only gave me private lessons, I didn't pay anything and he paid me (with me arguing against it) for each class that I helped teach. His viewpoint was you risk your body more teaching/assisting, particularly with new people when you teach, you're not actively learning at that time, so you should be getting compensated.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Great advice I have been very cautious up to this point when weighing my options. I don't want to rock any boats but ultimately need to do what will make me happy and continue my growth

TT

About the style/federation, depending on how it works, you may end up in bad standings with the organization. That's okay. You can probably still teach the style. If you can't, you can say it's an "enshin kaikan karate offshoot" (replace enshin kaikan with whatever style it is). Now, if you still teach it at the original style, you will only be able to teach as a X dan anyway, but you would probably do better off leaving the style now, starting to train in another style, and if/when you want to open a school in the future, advertising yourself as an X dan in style A (or X years in style A), and Y rank/Y years in style B. Split the classes up, or teach them combined. You'd just have to come up with a cool name for the dojo.

If you don't want to teach in the future, all that is moot. Start dojo searching near you, find somewhere you like, and leave your current place before your next month of dues (if you don't find a place that you gel with before that, it's okay, that can take some time).

I'm really hoping you're not on a contract.

 

[Flying Crane]

You need to be an employee with a salary, that you both agree upon. You are being taken advantage of.

I get that “some” amount of teaching can be a part of your learning and growth. But there should be a limit to it, you should be getting mentoring as a student teacher, and you should be getting quality instruction of your own. Otherwise you are simply running his dojo for him and not being paid.

 

[KenpoMaster805]

Yes you should get paid because your teaching and the Sensie is just there doing nothing and also u can choose another martial arts near you if you want to move to another dojo

I mean a shihan or sensie or sifu should be responsible for teaching their student not surfing the ipad or the net or not mingling with parents and a senpai has the right to get paid if his teaching 80 % of the time

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Something that just occurred to me. Be prepared for the guy to try to either guilt you or flip out when you tell him that youre leaving, and he will have to actually teach. He probably enjoys coasting, and who knows how he will act when he finds out he can no longer coast.

 

[Gweilo]

Something that just occurred to me. Be prepared for the guy to try to either guilt you or flip out when you tell him that youre leaving, and he will have to actually teach. He probably enjoys coasting, and who knows how he will act when he finds out he can no longer coast.

I wouldn't worry about that, if he cannot be bothered to teach, I doubt he will be bothered to fight.but if your worried about that, just go somewhere else.

 

[Headhunter]

Ive been in this place before but I think the first thing you need to do is talk to the instructor about this before leaving. Maybe he didn't realise what position he was putting you in. He's human he makes mistakes. Maybe if you talk to him he'll realise he screwed up and make a compromise to make things better. If that doesn't happen then consider leaving

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I wouldn't worry about that, if he cannot be bothered to teach, I doubt he will be bothered to fight.but if your worried about that, just go somewhere else.

He may not. But I've read enough stories online about people flipping out over things like that that I would be cautious. I've got no clue how often that actually happens, or if the stories are even real, but it's good to be prepared for it (particularly the attempt to guilt...that I've seen happen plenty of times).

 

[Buka]

Something that just occurred to me. Be prepared for the guy to try to either guilt you or flip out when you tell him that youre leaving, and he will have to actually teach. He probably enjoys coasting, and who knows how he will act when he finds out he can no longer coast.

What I told to that early teacher who was taking advantage of me was "You never even kissed me the whole time you were f'ing me. And if you're not careful I'll open a dojo on this very street". That got his attention. And even though he was more knowledgeable and experienced, at least at that time, he never actually worked out at all, while we were training our butts off full time in Karate and in boxing.

But Karma eventually got him bad. I was sorry, but not surprised.

 

[Tiny Tim]

Run away. Fast. You should not be paying 120 a month to do his job.

To share my own experience: similar to some others in here. At an old dojo, there were two head instructors; one got a pretty bad shoulder injury and couldn't teach for a bit. As a result, I helped assist (not teach just assist) classes twice a week. I didn't ask for anything. The instructor not only gave me private lessons, I didn't pay anything and he paid me (with me arguing against it) for each class that I helped teach. His viewpoint was you risk your body more teaching/assisting, particularly with new people when you teach, you're not actively learning at that time, so you should be getting compensated.

I appreciate the reply. I think I would feel better if I wasn't paying dues and got free gear, belt test fees etc

 

[Tiny Tim]

About the style/federation, depending on how it works, you may end up in bad standings with the organization. That's okay. You can probably still teach the style. If you can't, you can say it's an "enshin kaikan karate offshoot" (replace enshin kaikan with whatever style it is). Now, if you still teach it at the original style, you will only be able to teach as a X dan anyway, but you would probably do better off leaving the style now, starting to train in another style, and if/when you want to open a school in the future, advertising yourself as an X dan in style A (or X years in style A), and Y rank/Y years in style B. Split the classes up, or teach them combined. You'd just have to come up with a cool name for the dojo.

If you don't want to teach in the future, all that is moot. Start dojo searching near you, find somewhere you like, and leave your current place before your next month of dues (if you don't find a place that you gel with before that, it's okay, that can take some time).

I'm really hoping you're not on a contract.

No contract only month to month. Yea good point to at least be able to claim dan grade as resume fodder even if I don't teach it

 

[Tiny Tim]

Something that just occurred to me. Be prepared for the guy to try to either guilt you or flip out when you tell him that youre leaving, and he will have to actually teach. He probably enjoys coasting, and who knows how he will act when he finds out he can no longer coast.

I totally see this happening. He won't flip but it will be a big guilt trip. This will be a huge blow to him because the nearest adult is yellow belt lol

 

[Tiny Tim]

What I told to that early teacher who was taking advantage of me was "You never even kissed me the whole time you were f'ing me. And if you're not careful I'll open a dojo on this very street". That got his attention. And even though he was more knowledgeable and experienced, at least at that time, he never actually worked out at all, while we were training our butts off full time in Karate and in boxing.

But Karma eventually got him bad. I was sorry, but not surprised.

That's funny bc this sensei is very out of shape. People mistake me as the full time martial artist because I am in great muscular shape.

 

[Flying Crane]

I totally see this happening. He won't flip but it will be a big guilt trip. This will be a huge blow to him because the nearest adult is yellow belt lol

Turn the guilt trip back on him, what he has been doing is shameful, he ought to be ashamed and he has no honor, he has been taking advantage of you. Tell it to his face. Don’t let him get away with guilt-tripping you. Perhaps suggest to him that employment law supports a claim for back wages, and you might be having a talk with an employment attorney soon...

Ask him if the dojo address is his point of service address. So that when you need to serve the legal summons on him you will, ya know, know where to have it served...

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yea and I don't think it is even my place to ask to be paid. The sensei should realize how much I am doing for his business and compensate me if he was any kind of good person. But that is how it has been. I get charged for new Gis, dojo swag, belt tests, etc. I don't even get that stuff for free.

If you like what you are doing, and feel you should be paid for it, then ask.

At the very least it doesn't sound like you should be paying dues there, for two reasons:

1. You're not getting much instruction.
2. You're doing enough work to get whatever level of instruction free.

I will make one comment that I haven't seen yet: it's possible your instructor isn't getting paid much. 70 students may or may not be very profitable. We don't know what they pay, nor what the expenses (rent, utilities, association dues, insurance) for the school are. If the instructor isn't making much, I wouldn't expect him to pay other instructors (since he's the one having to run the business). But if the school is making good money, I'd expect him to pay at least the instructor doing most of the teaching (you).

 

[Gerry Seymour]

This is definitely a commercial for profit business. With about 70 students @$120 usd a month. And yes I pay full dues myself. I go to demonstrations and recruiting events for the dojo, I sacrifice a lot of time even outside the 4 days a week I am at the dojo. It just feels like a slimy situation and I feel that it is time to go. Although I will feel guilty about leaving especially the students. It isn't their fault, and I am sure guilt trips will be a part of me leaving. I also am worried about leaving in bad standings with the Federation in Japan. If I ever want to teach this style on my own I would need to get their permission, and I don't want to rock the boat with them. So it is really tough for me.

To your last point, consider starting with not being available for the kids' classes. Only be there for the adult classes as a transition. Of course, you'd give him some notice of it and tell him some personal issues make it necessary for you to only be there for the adult class (not necessary to explain what the personal issues are). This way you don't leave the students suddenly, and the owner is less likely to blast you to the association.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Seriously???!!

Screw that guy. You're paying him to do his work for him.

I'll offer my own situation up for comparison.

I've been teaching at my current gym for about 8 years. I don't get paid cash, since the gym really just about breaks even, but here are the differences.
I volunteered to start teaching on my own initiative.
I teach just 2 hours per week.
I don't pay dues and I get to attend as many of the 25+ other classes taking place during the week as I want.
I get extra coaching from my instructor.
My instructor periodically gives me free gear (Gi, t-shirts, rash guard, MMA gloves) or covers my seminar fee when his instructor comes to town.

Since I enjoy teaching anyway, this works out to be a good deal for me. There's no way I would pay full price to run someone else's school for him with no compensation.

Tony, quit reminding me how cool your deal is. Jerk.

 

[JR 137]

Seriously???!!

Screw that guy. You're paying him to do his work for him.

I'll offer my own situation up for comparison.

I've been teaching at my current gym for about 8 years. I don't get paid cash, since the gym really just about breaks even, but here are the differences.
I volunteered to start teaching on my own initiative.
I teach just 2 hours per week.
I don't pay dues and I get to attend as many of the 25+ other classes taking place during the week as I want.
I get extra coaching from my instructor.
My instructor periodically gives me free gear (Gi, t-shirts, rash guard, MMA gloves) or covers my seminar fee when his instructor comes to town.

Since I enjoy teaching anyway, this works out to be a good deal for me. There's no way I would pay full price to run someone else's school for him with no compensation.

And what appears to be no instruction either.

 

[dvcochran]

As others have said, it sounds like there is a large amount of guilt trip going on. You mentioned that staying in good graces with your federation is important to you so why don't you simply ask your instructor to pay you? At the very least stop paying for membership and all ancillary the things you mentioned.
Your post is very similar to how I started my first Dojang. It had gotten to the point that most the parents were asking me to start my own school and agreed to go with me. Don't take that as me suggesting mutiny on your part but the equity is way off there.
Talk with the teacher. If he just flat out refuses to do anything about the situation it is time to go. Be careful of promises. It needs to be a concrete conversation.