Are belts the way to go (from a brown belt)?

[Urban Trekker]

That's a lot of assumption about why some folks don't prefer belt systems. It comes off as condescending.

I'm going off of what he said. Unlike some people here, I can read. In case you missed them, here are the facts:

1. This thread exists in the first place because the OP didn't make brown belt, and he's feeling down about it. We wouldn't be talking right now if this wasn't the case.

2. A result of this, the OP is considering choosing another place to go that does not have a belt ranking system. He mentioned no other criteria, other than the lack of a belt ranking system.

Funny how there's nothing but positivity in this thread, until you come along and screw it up.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I'm going off of what he said. Unlike some people here, I can read. In case you missed them, here are the facts:

1. This thread exists in the first place because the OP didn't make brown belt, and he's feeling down about it. We wouldn't be talking right now if this wasn't the case.

2. A result of this, the OP is considering choosing a martial art that does not have a belt system. He mentioned no other criteria about any potential martial art that he could choose, except the lack of a belt ranking system.

Funny how there's nothing but positivity in this thread, until you come along and screw it up.

Perhaps you didn't read his comments fully. He's wondering if the belt ranking distracted him from his goal. Which would mean that looking for something without ranking would be for a purpose other than avoiding ranks he can't reach.

I didn't read your post as positive, at all.

 

[Urban Trekker]

Perhaps you didn't read his comments fully. He's wondering if the belt ranking distracted him from his goal. Which would mean that looking for something without ranking would be for a purpose other than avoiding ranks he can't reach.

No, you didn't. Re-read number 1. That's why we're here in the first place.

I didn't read your post as positive, at all.

Not a shocker at all, because I know you have it out for me. Every time you see me here, it's "Uh oh, Urban Trekker just said something. Lemme stop what I'm doing, and detract from it."

 

[Urban Trekker]

As a person who runs a wing chun school I can tell you (as someone above has already) that a belt makes it really easy for me to look at what's hanging around someone's waist and it immediately remind me where a person is, roughly, in terms of learning the system. So they are great when you have a room full of people and a fairly regulated curriculum. They can also have the affect of inspiring students to achieve the next one though that's not really a consideration for me personally.

I always thought that Chinese martial arts with a ranking system used sashes.

Though I've seen various Chinese martial artists on YouTube that wear karate dogis, and one even explained why (I can't remember what that reason was).

It appears that, much like the modern men's suit - which originated in the UK in the late 19th century - has become the worldwide standard in men's formalwear; the Japanese dogi seems to be taking on that role for martial arts with long curriculums.

 

[APL76]

I always thought that Chinese martial arts with a ranking system used sashes.

Though I've seen various Chinese martial artists on YouTube that wear karate dogis, and one even explained why (I can't remember what that reason was).

It appears that, much like the modern men's suit - which originated in the UK in the late 19th century - has become the worldwide standard in men's formalwear; the Japanese dogi seems to be taking on that role for martial arts with long curriculums.

Well true, we do use coloured sashes rather than a belt like karate, but calling it a belt or sash, same same as far as purpose for this discussion.

 

[Steve]

I'm going off of what he said. Unlike some people here, I can read. In case you missed them, here are the facts:

1. This thread exists in the first place because the OP didn't make brown belt, and he's feeling down about it. We wouldn't be talking right now if this wasn't the case.

2. A result of this, the OP is considering choosing another place to go that does not have a belt ranking system. He mentioned no other criteria, other than the lack of a belt ranking system.

Funny how there's nothing but positivity in this thread, until you come along and screw it up.

You're right that the OP mentioned belts, and that the failure to be promoted to brown belt was the catalyst for his post. However, in addition to belts, he mentions lack of contact and concern that he is not progressing. In fact, he says that feeling like he's not progressing is his primary concern. Just going off what he wrote.

 

[Steve]

Not a shocker at all, because I know you have it out for me. Every time you see me here, it's "Uh oh, Urban Trekker just said something. Lemme stop what I'm doing, and detract from it."

I think you're on to something there. The establishment does have a bad habit of pigeon holing folks. Like Gandalf, you have been officially labeled a disturber of the peace.

 

[Urban Trekker]

You're right that the OP mentioned belts, and that the failure to be promoted to brown belt was the catalyst for his post. However, in addition to belts, he mentions lack of contact and concern that he is not progressing. In fact, he says that feeling like he's not progressing is his primary concern. Just going off what he wrote.

We have to read between the lines, though. Look at when he posted this thread - after failing the test. He wasn't questioning his progress beforehand.

I say this with respect to the OP, but what if there was no belt ranking system at his club? His progression would have been exactly the same, the only difference is that wherever he thought his progression was before the test, he'd still be able to continue thinking that without anyone bursting his bubble.

I'm not saying that the OP should want a belt-ranking system; I'm saying that there are likely other things at play here that need to be resolved.

 

[Steve]

We have to read between the lines, though. Look at when he posted this thread - after failing the test. He wasn't questioning his progress beforehand.

I say this with respect to the OP, but what if there was no belt ranking system at his club? His progression would have been exactly the same, the only difference is that wherever he thought his progression was before the test, he'd still be able to continue thinking that without anyone bursting his bubble.

I'm not saying that the OP should want a belt-ranking system; I'm saying that there are likely other things at play here that need to be resolved.

Hold on. I get what you're saying and to be clear, I agree with most of it. But you can't admonish @gseymour for not reading the posts, say you actually do read the post, and then dismiss some very clear and direct statements.

If we disagree on anything, it's what is between the lines. When I read it, and the OP's subsequent responses, I get the impression that lack of progress and feeling like he's not actually able to do the things he's learning are his primary concerns. He admits getting caught up with chasing belts, but imposter syndrome is pretty common in traditional martial arts, and there are very easy and practical ways to address it.

But all that is academic, because (unless we've discouraged him from posting any more), we can just ask him.

 

[Martial D]

For some reason, some folks find it necessary to mock when belts are added to systems that traditionally didn't have them.

Because it's a cash grab. CMA that sell belts are mcdojos

 

[Steve]

Because it's a cash grab. CMA that sell belts are mcdojos

Some for sure. But that school I trained at in high school had some pretty tough dudes in it. Looks like it's still around: Greenlake Martial Arts |Tsun Jo Wing Chun Kung Fu |Self-Defense| Seattle, WA | U. District | Ballard

Called Tsun Jo now, but in the mid-80s, it was a Wing Chun school. I don't know how good it is for self defense, but they could fight.

 

[MadMartigan]

 

[Tez3]

No, you didn't. Re-read number 1. That's why we're here in the first place.

Not a shocker at all, because I know you have it out for me. Every time you see me here, it's "Uh oh, Urban Trekker just said something. Lemme stop what I'm doing, and detract from it."

'Infamy, infamy...... they've all got it in for me'

Lovers of Carry on films (a select band) will know who said that.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

So i just skimmed the thread, but it seems to have devolved into the whole "belts are ego/insecurity/money-making schemes". I get that viewpoint, but don't agree. I've trained in systems/schools both with belts and without. It's very low on my list of priorities when visiting a school, but I do like belts, for a couple reasons.

1. I'm a very organized individual. And can get information overload fairly easily. If I know that, learning something new, at X belt I should be learning Y, that's what I'll do. And then keep learning Y when I move onto Z, but it sets up a progression for me that I'm not having to figure out by myself.

2. I'm human. It is motivating to have something to strive for. I feel a sense of accomplishment when I achieve it, and I know that I have to work harder if either I a: am not offered a promotion/test when I thought I was ready (has happened), or b: failed a test (has also happened). Like I said, I'll still train systems without it, so I don't need that motivation, but having an extra goal is certainly not a bad thing.

3. In line with two-it provides feedback. I've got no issue directly asking an instructor/coach/partner what I'm doing wrong, but I've seen both new and old students that do. Failing/passing/not being tested provides feedback that you're on the right track, or something's amiss, and can encourage people to ask their instructor what their lacking.

4. As an experienced martial artist, it helps when I try out a new school. I immediately know who's experienced relative to the school/class in session. That means that once I work with one or two people, I can estimate the general level of the belts at the school, and have an idea of where someone will be at when I work with them. So if I spar with a few black belts, and they're not all that accomplished, then I spar with an orange belt, I know from the getgo to take it easy. Vs. If I sparred with the same people, I might think that the "black belts" are newer students, and it would take me longer to feel out the school itself.

5. It gives new students clear instructions on who to emulate/listen to. I'm sure we've all seen those people with 3 months under their belt (heh), trying to teach everyone else exactly how to do things. If a new student just came in, they might listen to them over someone with more experience, simply because that other student sounds more confident. If they can see a difference in rank, it makes it easier for them to know who to listen to.

Obviously all of the above have some caveats, it's not perfect and there are negatives of belts. Just thought I'd put in a few reasons why their useful, since I feel like I much more often read all the negatives and not as much of the positives.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Not a shocker at all, because I know you have it out for me. Every time you see me here, it's "Uh oh, Urban Trekker just said something. Lemme stop what I'm doing, and detract from it."

You overestimate your importance to me.

 

[Urban Trekker]

You overestimate your importance to me.

You're demonstrating my importance to you.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I always thought that Chinese martial arts with a ranking system used sashes.

Though I've seen various Chinese martial artists on YouTube that wear karate dogis, and one even explained why (I can't remember what that reason was).

It appears that, much like the modern men's suit - which originated in the UK in the late 19th century - has become the worldwide standard in men's formalwear; the Japanese dogi seems to be taking on that role for martial arts with long curriculums.

The most common reason I've heard for CMA using a dogi is simply availability - they're usually easier to get than anything Chinese in origin. A couple of places also said that they'd adopted it because the look was popular at the time (during the heyday of MA movies).

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Hold on. I get what you're saying and to be clear, I agree with most of it. But you can't admonish @gseymour for not reading the posts, say you actually do read the post, and then dismiss some very clear and direct statements.

If we disagree on anything, it's what is between the lines. When I read it, and the OP's subsequent responses, I get the impression that lack of progress and feeling like he's not actually able to do the things he's learning are his primary concerns. He admits getting caught up with chasing belts, but imposter syndrome is pretty common in traditional martial arts, and there are very easy and practical ways to address it.

But all that is academic, because (unless we've discouraged him from posting any more), we can just ask him.

I read it as the belt progression masking his (now perceived) lack of progress in skill.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Because it's a cash grab. CMA that sell belts are mcdojos

If they sell the actual belts, they usually make a couple of bucks on the belt (literally). If they charge for testing, it depends how that's handled (a $20 testing fee isn't much of a cash grab, and a larger testing fee is a cash grab if it isn't offset by monthly fees being lower).

There's this perception among some that belts = more money. No place I've ever trained (and most had belts at all levels) had enough of a testing fee or promotion fee for it to be worth the trouble. The ranks were there either because they thought them useful, they thought they'd market better, or (most often) simply because that's what they were used to from where they trained.

Perhaps there's more of a correlation among CMA, but just the fact that they have a belt system doesn't really tell us that.

 

[Steve]

reference to deleted post removed - jks9199

Hold on. Any self respecting cowboy plays the guitar.