Appreciating Good Kata/Hyung regardless of Style

[JWLuiza]

Let us start discussion with Sochin (Shotakan Version)

Most of use TSD people don't learn this, unless we go out of our way to pick up outside forms (I've pulled in Unsu, Nijyushiho, and Gojushiho Dai).

Now while the mechanics are different than a SBD guy, or JT the Ninja's leg pick ups, I doubt there can be much debate about the quality of this kata?

 

[Muwubu16858]

I believe that's one style of sochin, probably Shotokan. the karate forms I use are from Shitoryu, and Sochin is different in that sect.

 

[JWLuiza]

I believe that's one style of sochin, probably Shotokan. the karate forms I use are from Shitoryu, and Sochin is different in that sect.

Yes, it is probably a bastardization made by Funakoshi's son from some techniques from the Shito-Ryu Sochin.

 

[JT_the_Ninja]

Wow cool stuff. His side kicks were a bit awkward (he kicked from the ground instead of picking up his knee first -- maybe Shotokan does that?), but the rest of the form was intense. I'd love to know what the application for the combo high/low block is.

 

[Lynne]

Wow. Beautiful. Water, fire, earth. He had it all.

 

[Chizikunbo]

Let us start discussion with Sochin (Shotakan Version)

Most of use TSD people don't learn this, unless we go out of our way to pick up outside forms (I've pulled in Unsu, Nijyushiho, and Gojushiho Dai).

Now while the mechanics are different than a SBD guy, or JT the Ninja's leg pick ups, I doubt there can be much debate about the quality of this kata?

Unsu is in the Tang Soo Do Mi Guk Kwan syllabus, Nijushiho is called Ee Ship Sa Bu in Korean and is taught by several people. Gojushiho is Oh Ship Sa Bu in Korean, and has been in many TSD curriculums over the years as required material for yukdan (6th dan) along with Sa Oon hyung (Jion).

 

[Muwubu16858]

Unsu is in the Tang Soo Do Mi Guk Kwan syllabus, Nijushiho is called Ee Ship Sa Bu in Korean and is taught by several people. Gojushiho is Oh Ship Sa Bu in Korean, and has been in many TSD curriculums over the years as required material for yukdan (6th dan) along with Sa Oon hyung (Jion).

As far as my teacher tells me, Hwang Kee learned Unsu, or as it's pronounced in korean, Woon Soo, along with the other Okinawan forms, pyung ahn etc. It was dropped early on like many forms. I believe Hwang Hyun Chul may know it too, but never taught it either, since his father began introducing his own hyung.

I've never heard that pronounciation of Jion. As far as I know, 慈音, the kanji(hanja) used by Shitoryu for Jion, is pronounced 자음 in Korea, or Ja Eum. Which hanja does Mi Guk Kwan use, Chizikunbo?

 

[JWLuiza]

Unsu is in the Tang Soo Do Mi Guk Kwan syllabus, Nijushiho is called Ee Ship Sa Bu in Korean and is taught by several people. Gojushiho is Oh Ship Sa Bu in Korean, and has been in many TSD curriculums over the years as required material for yukdan (6th dan) along with Sa Oon hyung (Jion).

The Oh Sip Sa Bu hyung is around. Ee Sip Sa Bo is rare, and AFAIK MGK is the only TSD group doing Unsu. More importantly, korean versions are hard to find but the japanese versions are ubiquitous.

 

[JWLuiza]

Wow cool stuff. His side kicks were a bit awkward (he kicked from the ground instead of picking up his knee first -- maybe Shotokan does that?), but the rest of the form was intense. I'd love to know what the application for the combo high/low block is.

THere are two sidekicks in Shotokan. He was technically correct, if not appeasing to the sensibilities of a Korean stylist with only the thrust kick in their syllabus.

 

[Chizikunbo]

As far as my teacher tells me, Hwang Kee learned Unsu, or as it's pronounced in korean, Woon Soo, along with the other Okinawan forms, pyung ahn etc. It was dropped early on like many forms. I believe Hwang Hyun Chul may know it too, but never taught it either, since his father began introducing his own hyung.

I've never heard that pronounciation of Jion. As far as I know, 慈音, the kanji(hanja) used by Shitoryu for Jion, is pronounced 자음 in Korea, or Ja Eum. Which hanja does Mi Guk Kwan use, Chizikunbo?

Hello, please call me Josh. Hwang Kee KJN did indeed leanr many Okinawan forms (mostly from books on Japanese Karate, and some interaction with other Kwan leaders who studied in Japan)...As far as the pronunciation of Jion, the hanja is the same, as is the Hangul, but to romanization differs...its alot like the Kempo vs. Kenpo issue. For instance there is only a slight variation from SA to JA, the position of the tounge in the mouth is very similar (as with making the "n" and "m" sounds). EU makes the OOH sound either way you spell it...then we are confronted with the N vs. M usage...which is unique because the correct sound is more of a mix of the two like mN...we dont really have it in our language, but the Altaic family of languages does. Either way were talking about the same form ;-)

--josh

 

[Chizikunbo]

The Oh Sip Sa Bu hyung is around. Ee Sip Sa Bo is rare, and AFAIK MGK is the only TSD group doing Unsu. More importantly, korean versions are hard to find but the japanese versions are ubiquitous.

Actually several folks (not related to the MGK) use Unsu...but call it as Muwubu brought out WOON SOO...it is considered a classical TSD hyung...and it about as common as Ee Ship Sa Bu...it really just depends.

take care,
--josh

 

[Kacey]

Now while the mechanics are different than a SBD guy, or JT the Ninja's leg pick ups, I doubt there can be much debate about the quality of this kata?

Well, he demonstrated balance, focus, control, consistency, and fluidity - which, despite having never seen this kata before, tells me that he is an accomplished MAist in his particular style - thanks for sharing this video!

 

[JWLuiza]

Here is some interesting videos:

SBD Pyong Ahn Chodan

Pinan Shodan (Pyong Ahn Ee Dan)

Who would you score higher and why?

 

[JWLuiza]

And:

 

[JT_the_Ninja]

THere are two sidekicks in Shotokan. He was technically correct, if not appeasing to the sensibilities of a Korean stylist with only the thrust kick in their syllabus.

That's as I suspected, since the rest of his technique was so purposeful and accurate. I'd still like to know about the double-block thing, though.

 

[JWLuiza]

That's as I suspected, since the rest of his technique was so purposeful and accurate. I'd still like to know about the double-block thing, though.

Go ask on the Shotokan/Karate board

What about the Pinan videos. I think I'd vote the orange belt higher than the blackbelt because of intensity and purpose of movement.

 

[JT_the_Ninja]

Go ask on the Shotokan/Karate board

What about the Pinan videos. I think I'd vote the orange belt higher than the blackbelt because of intensity and purpose of movement.

If you mean the orange belt vs. the first black belt, I see your point. Not a good comparison, though, since in TSD (and SBD, apparently) pinan shodan is equivalent to pyung ahn ee dan. The black belt doing pinan nidan, though, really impressed me. He had a lot of snap, especially on his high blocks, even though they were executed differently to me. Interesting that for him, the first move is a downward backfist/hammerfist (blurry video), instead of a low block.

 

[Master Jay S. Penfil]

Here is some interesting videos:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=oi5cyQzpdZk
SBD Pyong Ahn Chodan

http://youtube.com/watch?v=yfC8i5LcSKw
Pinan Shodan (Pyong Ahn Ee Dan)

Who would you score higher and why?

John,
This is an unfair match up…
The Shotokan practitioner is a shodan, the SBD guy is an 8th gyup. The difference in quality clearly reflects the difference in experience.

The SBD guy has a great deal of extra movement in his execution that needs to be smoothed out over time, and most likely will be if he is a student of Damon Kenyon’s.

The Shotokan practitioner had much smoother movement and better timing, but based on the way Shotokan is taught ( by those of the JKA), this practitioner needs to work on deeper stances.

Just my opinion…

 

[Master Jay S. Penfil]

Wow cool stuff. His side kicks were a bit awkward (he kicked from the ground instead of picking up his knee first -- maybe Shotokan does that?), but the rest of the form was intense. I'd love to know what the application for the combo high/low block is.

JT,
Watch this video clip again, but this time imagine the opponent that he is fighting is attacking him with a side kick like those thrown in TSD as he executes those side kicks,. Imagine his knee (on the chambering movement) deflecting the incoming sidekick (at the ankle) upward and his foot following it’s trajectory line into the opponents groin or inner thigh.

This is one of several applications taught in Okinawan and Japanese systems for this style of side kick.

This is not an application for Korean or Japanese tournament usage, but is some Okinawan systems, groin is a legal target and this technique is used quite successfully. I know this because I began my training in Isshinryu and we used this application on a regular basis.

Try it with a training partner and let us know what you think…

 

[Master Jay S. Penfil]

Let us start discussion with Sochin (Shotakan Version)

Most of use TSD people don't learn this, unless we go out of our way to pick up outside forms (I've pulled in Unsu, Nijyushiho, and Gojushiho Dai).

Now while the mechanics are different than a SBD guy, or JT the Ninja's leg pick ups, I doubt there can be much debate about the quality of this kata?

John,
I received a video tape of a highly respected Japanese competitor in Japan performing Sochin from my Shotokan instructor, the late O’Sensei Jame V. Morrone, Jr.

(If you would like a copy, send me your mailing info and I will make you a copy)​

O’Sensei Morrone’s dojo uses Sochin as the official demonstration kata for the dojo. I have seen them perform it many times. This kata is great for teaching us how to “Root” ourselves to the ground and deliver incredibly powerful techniques.

For all of the kata that you mentioned here that are also performed in TSD, the main differences in execution, as I have seen it over my history training in both systems is the understanding of and usage of stances in the hyung/kata.

Take Seisan (as in TSD) vs. Hengetsu (in Shotkan). The same hyung/kata, but in Shotokan the stance is so distinct and teaches such great lessons in structure that it is actually named after the kata and learning this stance and understanding the muscle expansion and contraction in coincidence with the foot placement is as important, if not more important than anything else taught in this kata. I have not met any TSD practitioner from any association that has ever known anything about this stance, or that there is anything about the execution or purpose of this stance worth noting.

There is much for TSD practitioners to become aware of with these hyung/kata, as these principles were never introduced by KJN Hwang Kee. I learned them directly from Shotokan and Motobu-Ha Shito Ryu instructors.

These principles and philosophies of movement make all of the difference between being able to apply what you are learning in hyung/kata training or simply using them for physical exercise…

When you are watching video clips of practitioners of this level, pay close attention to the foundation of every technique. Note the foot positions, the angle of the hips and shoulders, the tension in the legs during the execution of the techniques and the explosive movements of the legs as the practitioner transitions from stance to stance.

Sochin is an excellent kata to study in order to establish the understanding of all of these principle. You chose a great video clip here and a great thread topic to discuss…


TANG SOO!!!