Application of Koryo Poomsae

[terryl965]

Action 1 The hand blade is applied to defend against the opponet's momtong-jir-eugi

Action 2-1 Double yop-chagis are applied against the opponet, the first kick is delivered to the knee, while the latter stagger, another yop-chagi is inflected a little higher, mostly the solarplex area or the rib cage.
If this is true why is it at competition and in schools where it is tought they always kick to the ankle and thecieling?

We can get into the rest after a good converstation over why is this being tought by most Master the wrong way. Also for those of you taking these courses from oversea how is it tought now and do they explain why and where did it change from the original way from the Tae Kwon Do Textbook

 

[puunui]

If this is true why is it at competition and in schools where it is tought they always kick to the ankle and thecieling?

Because either they never learned the correct way, or they learned the correct way and did not respect the Kukkiwon enough to adhere to the Kukkiwon standard.

 

[terryl965]

Because either they never learned the correct way, or they learned the correct way and did not respect the Kukkiwon enough to adhere to the Kukkiwon standard.

Ok puunui I can accept that but why is it that every single ref. scores the wrong way higher than the right way. We stop doing poomsae at events because of the dis service they do by proclaiming the wrong way the right way everytime.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Action 1 The hand blade is applied to defend against the opponet's momtong-jir-eugi

Action 2-1 Double yop-chagis are applied against the opponet, the first kick is delivered to the knee, while the latter stagger, another yop-chagi is inflected a little higher, mostly the solarplex area or the rib cage.
If this is true why is it at competition and in schools where it is tought they always kick to the ankle and thecieling?

We can get into the rest after a good converstation over why is this being tought by most Master the wrong way. Also for those of you taking these courses from oversea how is it tought now and do they explain why and where did it change from the original way from the Tae Kwon Do Textbook

"Mostly" is not always. This would seem to leave it open to personal choice. This video on YouTube, which I have been told is from DVDs produced by the Kukkiwon, clearly shows the second kick being high. At the end, when it shows specific appications, the double yop chagi is demonstrated as a kicking block followed by a kick to the head.

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[terryl965]

Ok dirty dog you are right and I have that same set of videos, my question is this when and why the changes? In the picture version it shows the front of the knee and the solar plex, to me this is the right way so why is the video different? Well maybe someone will be able to give some sort of resonable explination for this.

 

[puunui]

Ok puunui I can accept that but why is it that every single ref. scores the wrong way higher than the right way. We stop doing poomsae at events because of the dis service they do by proclaiming the wrong way the right way everytime.

I think the answer is education. Someone in your state association, if you have one, needs to pick up the poomsae officiating ball and run with it. Maybe someone like Richard Sacks. I believe I saw him at the Kukkiwon Hanmadang IR seminar a couple few years ago, so hopefully he understands what the standards are.

 

[puunui]

In the picture version it shows the front of the knee and the solar plex, to me this is the right way so why is the video different? Well maybe someone will be able to give some sort of resonable explination for this.

I remember GM PARK Hae Man said the second kick was to the arm pit, but he said head high is ok too. I don't believe going straight up in the air like so many used to like to do is the correct way though. I would do it like how the video does it. Personally I try for head high, but not super high.

 

[Master Dan]

Ok puunui I can accept that but why is it that every single ref. scores the wrong way higher than the right way. We stop doing poomsae at events because of the dis service they do by proclaiming the wrong way the right way everytime.

Historically tournament judging has always been a crap shoot of how the points are going to be called so I have always taught my students all variations then look at the lay of the land and basis of how the judges are going to score then adjust your PoomSe accordingly.

However in the Instructor courses by the KKW they are atempting to bring everyone into the fold so to speak conforming to one way the KKW way and Punnui is right many times it is was shown properly in the KKW text book.
KKW is addressing this issue by mentioning that the forms were taught differently by different Kwan's and also there has been some confusion over the difference between a traditonal KKW form by the book and modifications strictly for Demonstration.

Example speed of movements the KKW head PoomSe instructor would show that text book movement would be slow and the faster speed was demonstration PoomSe.

We have all seen the little 8 year olds come out and do Koryo going from floo to almost vertical with the second kick and the whole crowd including the referees foriegn and domestic OOH and AHH and score high its human nature oh and it helps to be cute too!!

I wish people would get over thinking its all about first place? Its about learning, doing your best and effort is its own reward. The only sure thing is knock somebody out?

 

[d1jinx]

I think the answer is education. Someone in your state association, if you have one, needs to pick up the poomsae officiating ball and run with it. Maybe someone like Richard Sacks. I believe I saw him at the Kukkiwon Hanmadang IR seminar a couple few years ago, so hopefully he understands what the standards are.

I think in Texas Raymond Hsu was trying to run with the Poomse IR chief obe-won kinobi. I liked Raymond, but not my first choice for P.O.C. for poomse in the state. And a good reason why Texas Poomse is behind the rest of the country... no offense ment, just My Opinion and opinions are like..... i know.

Ok dirty dog you are right and I have that same set of videos, my question is this when and why the changes? In the picture version it shows the front of the knee and the solar plex, to me this is the right way so why is the video different? Well maybe someone will be able to give some sort of resonable explination for this.

I was taught this, The first kick to the Knee, the second was to the head, HOWEVER keep in mind the head would be around shoulder height after the kick to the knee when they bent down from the strike. It was always a matter of interpretation of an equal sized opponent of the same size as the person performing the form. ( I know... we all know that) Having said that, A kick to the sky I THINK started to show off certain persons flexability and get a WOW factor.

The 96 version of the KuKKI textbook (english reprint of 73) says double yop chagis, first Arae, then Momtong, the pictures show a kick to the Knee, the a shoulder high kick, yet under the Application section it shows a kick to the knee, then Solar Plexis (mid Body not waist)... I think too many focus on the pictures, The first Taeguek book I had was By Pu Gil Gwon and it said the same, Another book Later By GM Yeon Park say Kick low, then second to Body but showed a kick to the knee, then waist.... perhaps that was as High as he could kick or perhaps that was where GM Park felt the most power from his kick.

In the current Kukki Video's in the application part they show a kick towards the Knee to stop the opponents Kick, then a Kick to the head...

Soooo... in the Kukki printed material it seems it has never really changed and always seemed to keep it around the upper body to head area, but in the spinoff american "interpretations" the second kick is close to the waist and up....

Perhaps the differences came from many refencing the american WTF endorsed versions instead of the KKW printed material...


also, for what its worth, not much time was focused on Koryo, just a generilzed area of contact for the kick then we pressed on. They were more concerned with NOT kicking in the same spot or kicking the floor then the sky....

 

[Manny]

Action 1 The hand blade is applied to defend against the opponet's momtong-jir-eugi

Action 2-1 Double yop-chagis are applied against the opponet, the first kick is delivered to the knee, while the latter stagger, another yop-chagi is inflected a little higher, mostly the solarplex area or the rib cage.
If this is true why is it at competition and in schools where it is tought they always kick to the ankle and thecieling?

We can get into the rest after a good converstation over why is this being tought by most Master the wrong way. Also for those of you taking these courses from oversea how is it tought now and do they explain why and where did it change from the original way from the Tae Kwon Do Textbook

Why? very simple, because the show. For the view of a non conoceur of Martial Arts particulary TKD high kicks to the aimed to the ceiling are AWESOME!!!

However, the tech is exactly has you wrote it, the first yop chagui is to the knee to stop and hurt the oponent and the second yop chagui is to knock him down with a heel trust to the solar plexus.

In poomsae tournament no matter one guy/gal does high awesome kicks that looks fantastic but with poor aplication they don't ring a bell to me, however competitor showing control in their kicks and aimed where they belong got my eye and higher score/cualification.

Manny

 

[puunui]

The 96 version of the KuKKI textbook (english reprint of 73)

The 1996 paperback version of the Kukkiwon Textbook is a reprint of the 1995 hard cover version. The first Kukkiwon Textbook was published in 1975.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

While I am certainly not learned enough about this Poomsae I would like toadd this general comment:
Tuls, patterns, Poomsae, forms, hyungs no matter what you call them have several things in common. One of these things is that they are performed without an opponent. Now 1 secret to getting people to perform in a highly standardized way is to have certain required default positions for how high or low you should direct your technique. For exapmple you can not have the peformer kick to someone's solar plexus level, as their level will differ, as each person is of different heights & may be standing in various postures which will all effect where they solar plexus level is. What is always consistent is however the level of the performer. For instance their eye level will always be located in the same place on their head.
So it would be easier to have people perform in a standardized way by insisting the performer adhere to certain required default levels, so as the umbilicus (navel, belly button) for low level, the shoulder for middle level & the eyes for high level. So if a performer is asked to do a high side kick, they simply kick to their eye level, or a low front snap kick is targeted to their "belly button", while a middle punch is at their shoulder level. There can be a few common sense exceptions, but this general rule or concept will contribute greatly to insuring standardization & equal judging.
I have seen many doing what they call a side kick by kicking way above or straight about their head to the ceiling. However that is simply not a side piercing kick, as by definition they are not kicking to their side, but on top of them. While this may look better & it is much harder to do, it would not be what the pattern calls for. So in effect it is a modification by the performer to make her look better, which hurts standardization & makes it so difficult to judge. Until you make higher is not better, even though it may look pretty or nicer, but higher is technically incorrect for the performance of a particular move within a predetermined pattern that was designed to be done a certain way. This is a key to standardization.