Anyone Up for Sharing Bunkai?

[dancingalone]

Slow board. Let's liven it up with a game of sorts.

Let's share some kata applications. It can be 'traditional' or something you made up. Pick any kata from any style and describe a section of the form. Then explain any application you would like that could explain the movements you've just described.

I'll start it off with a kata that most here have seen or practiced, since talking about Goju forms will keep it to only approximately 4 (7 if we count the Isshinryu guys) people here.

Pinan Nidan (Heian Shodan): Turn to left at 90 degrees. Left arm down block then immediately execute upper block with same arm.

Explanation: This could be used in response to a lapel grab or another other grab reasonably near your torso. Secure your attacker's arm by using your right hand/arm to brace it against yourself. Attack the crook of the grabbing arm with a downward strike in conjunction with the pulling brace. Done correctly this will be momentarily painful and it will PULL the attacker in closer with his head coming down towards his chest. Immediately attack the exposed neck and jaw area with the same forearm with a swift explosion outwards and upwards.

The kata typically has one shift into zenkutsu dachi for the down block and then you make a small shift out and back into another zenkutsu dachi for the upper block. This can be followed in the application too, but I've noticed you can skip the second front stance as the the shift out of zenkutsu dachi still can generate lots of power when combined with an upward torque.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I'm not sure I'm good enough to be able to talk freely about various kata and their bunkai yet, but I think it's a great idea to talk about it!

I'd like to say that in my dojo, sensei has an exercise he likes us to do from time to time. He divides the class up into groups of two. He gives each group a basic exercise movement to do, such as a middle-body block and reverse punch (chudan uke, seikan tsuki) and he gives us five minutes to come up with five different applications for that same exercise. Then we have to demonstrate it to the rest of the class; one person doing the exercise and the other attacking as directed by the person doing the exercise.

So, I might demonstrate how a middle-body block can be used to do the basic middle-body block (easy), but I might block the opposite arm punch instead of the same-side arm punch, and deliver the counter punch to the side of the uke instead of their midsection.

Or, I might perform the block on the same-side incoming arm as per usual, but then travel up the blocked arm and deliver an uppercut to the opponent's head, while striking at the same time with the reverse punch in a double-punch movement.

Or, I might step in and turn sideways, slipping the punch and delivering the middle-body block as a backfist to the opponent's face.

Or, I might block as usual, but then open my hand, turn it over, grab a handful of sleeve, and yank the opponent's arm down and to my obi, allowing me to deliver my reverse punch to their face as it drops towards my midsection.

Or, I might apply the block, but raise my arm, slide over the top of their arm that I just blocked, wrap my blocking arm around them, and hyperextend their elbow as I knock them backwards with my counter punch and raise up on their upside-down elbow with my shoulder.

There are a lot of possible combinations, and if we lack creativity, sensei can always make suggestions, he's got a million of 'em and can clearly demonstrate how devastatingly effective they are in every instance.

We also spend time afterwords talking about what kata each exercise can be found in and how our 'unique' application is actually in the kata if we just look for it. Sometimes we really get that 'head-slap' moment and go 'duh!' Of course it's in there!

I usually leave on those nights in deep thought about kata and bunkai. Amazing stuff.

 

[dancingalone]

I have some applications that I call 'building blocks' because they are the foundation for others to follow. They are taught exactly like you describe, Bill, with a simple block and punch are transmuted into something by the insertion of a new technique or substitution of another technique altogether.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I have some applications that I call 'building blocks' because they are the foundation for others to follow. They are taught exactly like you describe, Bill, with a simple block and punch are transmuted into something by the insertion of a new technique or substitution of another technique altogether.

Well, sometimes sensei does little demonstrations - not to show off, but to demonstrate and get us thinking. He'll ask for an exercise to perform, and then he'll defend anything anyone throws at him using only that exercise as a defense. It's pretty amazing stuff. I guess the idea is to get us thinking about how much freedom there is in the basic movements. It's not like that old SNL skit where Jim Carrey says "NO, you have to attack me LIKE THIS!" It doesn't matter how you're attacked, you can adjust your basic exercises and apply them to the situation.

 

[dancingalone]

Well, sometimes sensei does little demonstrations - not to show off, but to demonstrate and get us thinking. He'll ask for an exercise to perform, and then he'll defend anything anyone throws at him using only that exercise as a defense. It's pretty amazing stuff. I guess the idea is to get us thinking about how much freedom there is in the basic movements. It's not like that old SNL skit where Jim Carrey says "NO, you have to attack me LIKE THIS!" It doesn't matter how you're attacked, you can adjust your basic exercises and apply them to the situation.

Somewhat related, but I've pondered if it would be useful to create and teach from a matrix of techniques. Basically spell out the applications for everyone and just drill them exhaustively until they become reflex. Take the guesswork and artistry out of bunkai so to speak.

Something like

soto uke, gyaku-tsuki
soto uke, gyaku-tsuki, gyaku-tsuki
age uke, gyaku-tsuki
age uke, gyaku-tsuki,gyaku-tsuki
gedan barai, gyaku-tsuki
gedan barai, gyaku-tsuki
and so on

That's just one 'blocking' technique with a reverse punch or a reverse punch, reverse punch appended. When you get through the whole list of possible combinations, you'll run into the thousands easily without even coming close to the full mathematical possibility (factorials?).

I think you could produce quite competent fighters from such a method, but the pedagogy would be missing a lot of soul to it, you know?

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Somewhat related, but I've pondered if it would be useful to create and teach from a matrix of techniques. Basically spell out the applications for everyone and just drill them exhaustively until they become reflex. Take the guesswork and artistry out of bunkai so to speak.

Something like

soto uke, gyaku-tsuki
soto uke, gyaku-tsuki, gyaku-tsuki
age uke, gyaku-tsuki
age uke, gyaku-tsuki,gyaku-tsuki
gedan barai, gyaku-tsuki
gedan barai, gyaku-tsuki
and so on

That's just one 'blocking' technique with a reverse punch or a reverse punch, reverse punch appended. When you get through the whole list of possible combinations, you'll run into the thousands easily without even coming close to the full mathematical possibility (factorials?).

I think you could produce quite competent fighters from such a method, but the pedagogy would be missing a lot of soul to it, you know?

I think it might also overwhelm the beginner, but I am not qualified to say for sure, it's just a guess on my part.

In my dojo, we are small. We have a lot of black belts who have been students for many years, and we have newbies like me who join from time to time. So we have about 50% black or brown belts and maybe a couple white belts, an orange belt or two, a green belt, and me (the last remaining blue belt who hasn't learned chinto and become a brown belt yet).

We sometimes divide the class up between more and less experienced members, but mostly we do everything together. Which means that we do a lot of basic techniques for the benefit of the new guys (which I don't mind, I love doing reps of basic exercises). Advanced bunkai is not something we tackle every class, and maybe that's OK. We see that some of the newer students just aren't ready for it, and we don't want to swamp their boat and chase them away.

I don't know if this pertains, but we also practice doing the reverse side of the kata, so when we do, say, Seisan kata, we have one person doing the kata and the other person doing the attack to provoke the response. The person doing the kata might say "Straight punch with your left arm" and then do a right side middle-body block, for example. That gets people thinking about what the kata means and what it's intended to defend against. Not advanced bunkai, but good basic bunkai. Sensei insists on it for advancement past a certain point. You must be able to not only do your kata, but be able to do the 'reverse side' or the 'uke side' of it.

 

[Blade96]

I'll play =]

Heian Nidan.

From yoi, step out to the left in kokutsu dachi. Almost simultaneously move arms to the (right side, at your waist side in a cup and saucer) and throw them up by your head at 90 degree angles to each other to the left. It looks like you're making a picture frame.

You're doing a block. Someone is punching you or could be throwing something at you and you throw up your arms to ward off the punch or flying object. Possibly could stop a kick if the kick was high enough.

 

[K-man]

I would love to make comment but I have no experience of these kata. As there are different intepretations on youtube, perhaps you could place a link to demonstrate the kata you are analysing. :asian:

 

[dancingalone]

I would love to make comment but I have no experience of these kata. As there are different intepretations on youtube, perhaps you could place a link to demonstrate the kata you are analysing. :asian:

Share one from Goju. I'd be happy to read and discuss.

But in the meantime, here is a video of Pinan Nidan from a shito-ryu guy. Look at the third set of movements where he makes a 90 degree turn to the left along with a down block. The version I learned has an immediate upper block made with the same arm, which is missing from the video, but you get the idea. It's a simple combination of movement and the application I gave reflects it.

[yt]CHKK_8UwnJw[/yt]

 

[dancingalone]

I'll play =]

Heian Nidan.

From yoi, step out to the left in kokutsu dachi. Almost simultaneously move arms to the (right side, at your waist side in a cup and saucer) and throw them up by your head at 90 degree angles to each other to the left. It looks like you're making a picture frame.

You're doing a block. Someone is punching you or could be throwing something at you and you throw up your arms to ward off the punch or flying object. Possibly could stop a kick if the kick was high enough.

One possible expansion on this movement is thus:

Frequently, the 'picture frame' is taught at the basic level as a simultaneous side block and upper block. I like to think of the side block as a block or checking arm and the upper block as a strike to the attacker's face. This can work with either a straight or roundhouse punch from the attacker.

This is a preemptive application. You are not waiting for the blow to come to block it. Instead you recognize the attack is coming and you must close tightly with your attacker to jam his attack. The front hand acts as a check to prevent the attack from grazing you, but if you enter his personal zone correctly, you shouldn't be harmed regardless even if he manages to hit you. At the same time, the back arm comes through and strikes at the face. A ripping type strike like a claw works well to keep the attacker in place for a follow up strike or take down. I like a front hand shuto to the throat in combination with a leg sweep from behind the attacker's legs to chop him down, which is expressed perhaps more explicitly in the Goju Gekisai kata than in Pinan Shodan. Obviously I'm talking about the jodan shuto/fumikomi sequence.

For K-man, here is a video of Eihachi Ota performing Pinan Shodan which is the Shorin-ryu 'original' that Shotokan Heian Nidan derives from. The move I am talking about is the first movement made.

[yt]BkD83JBIB3o[/yt]

By the way, I've always liked the loading and uncoiling Ota Sensei shows in his kata. I believe he is Maysubayashi, but I have run into some other Matsubayashi teachers who do not emphasize it the way he does.

Here is Gekisai Dai Ni.

[yt]SuKt618_tlc[/yt]

 

[Nomad]

I'll play =]

Heian Nidan.

From yoi, step out to the left in kokutsu dachi. Almost simultaneously move arms to the (right side, at your waist side in a cup and saucer) and throw them up by your head at 90 degree angles to each other to the left. It looks like you're making a picture frame.

You're doing a block. Someone is punching you or could be throwing something at you and you throw up your arms to ward off the punch or flying object. Possibly could stop a kick if the kick was high enough.

This is one of my favorite moves in all of karate, and definitely my favorite set for bunkai. The main reason for this is that the spoonfed definition (similar to above) left me completely unsatisfied, and I started looking deeper into the movement, and consulting other sources for their thoughts as well. I actually designed a 1h seminar entirely around the Heian Nidan opening because the mechanics lends itself so well to a variety of interpretations.

Here are a couple:

1. From a lapel grab, haymaker combo, step in KKD to check the incoming punch (yama type), other hand comes over shoulder to strike jaw. Pop elbow down as hammerfist to jaw (move #2), then pull and hammerfist with other hand.

2. Step in KKD inside range of roundhouse punch, block with rear hand, front hand does uppercut to jaw. Front hand slips behind head, pulls in as perform second move, smashing face with hammerfist, peel and throw with move 3.

3. (Borrowed from Iain Abernethy's work) Step in KKD inside range of roundhouse punch, block with rear hand. Front arm slips through armpit, apply lock (move hands identically to move #2, keeping elbows low). Turn to takedown. Hammerfist is in case lock fails.

4. Same defense, front hand does forearm strike to neck, front hand grabs hair while back hand grabs jaw, twist neck to takedown, or twist sharply in opposite direction to break (move #3)

There are other possibilities as well; I think I came up with 10 for the seminar topic, and these were by no means exhaustive. Of course, simple variations on many of these give beautiful access to some pretty nasty pressure points as a bonus.

 

[Blade96]

Thanks guys.

for expanding on what i said.

btw i love it too, i love this kata.

A heian nidan:

 

[K-man]

Share one from Goju. I'd be happy to read and discuss.

But in the meantime, here is a video of Pinan Nidan from a shito-ryu guy. Look at the third set of movements where he makes a 90 degree turn to the left along with a down block. The version I learned has an immediate upper block made with the same arm, which is missing from the video, but you get the idea. It's a simple combination of movement and the application I gave reflects it.

[yt]CHKK_8UwnJw[/yt]

Ok my take is this. Stepping forward with the down 'block' makes no sense to me. I don't believe kata has any 'blocks' as I have said on previous occassions.
As oyo bunkai you can put any interpretaion on any part of kata and if it works for you that's fine.
Having seen the way the Okinawans work on bunkai I have radically changed the way I now look at the kata.
In this case I would look at the preceeding move which is a right jodan punch which followed possibly a deflection and grab of the attacker's left arm while moving off the line to the attacker's left side. Kata works on predictive response and the response to that from an untrained person with the left arm trapped, is to raise the right arm to protect the face. All 'blocks' utilise both hands. In this instance, following the right punch to the left side (in the beginning of the kata), the left hand would transfer to the attacker's right shoulder or upper arm as you move past the attacker to his right side. He is pulled off balance by the hand returning to 'carriage' and the right 'block' becomes a shuto strike to the back or side of the neck followed by a back fist to the temple or maybe GB20. Right hand grabs and the attacker is finished with the follow up left punch.
All this seems complicated until you actually try it with a partner, then it flows. (Ask my wife , I tried it on her!)
This interpretation is based on the following premise.
1) The kata flows with each technique being a 'finishing' move unless it is blocked.
2) The kata is not designed to be used against martial artists but against street thugs.
3) Kata is for close fighting, not sparring distance.
4) Turns in kata reflect location in relation to your attacker.
5) Most strikes are to the head (even gedan if the preceeding move has caused the attacker to bend or fall)
6) Kata relies on 'predictive' response.
:asian:

 

[K-man]

1. From a lapel grab, haymaker combo, step in KKD to check the incoming punch (yama type), other hand comes over shoulder to strike jaw. Pop elbow down as hammerfist to jaw (move #2), then pull and hammerfist with other hand.

I like the scenario from the lapel grab. A lapel grab with the left hand would generally mean you would be expecting a right punch.
My bunkai would be to move to the right (attacker's left) striking down on the attacker's left forearm. This does two things. Firstly it is harder for him to get the punch in and the move to the outside of his left arm, driving down with the left forearm coupled with the turn of the body brings his head forward. My position is now beside the attacker so my right hand is delivering furi uchi to GB20 (back of head). Left hand grasps attacker's left arm to hold while right tettsui smashes his left eye socket. If this has failed to render the attacker defenceless the left punch goes to the neck or side of jaw.

 

[K-man]

Here is Gekisai Dai Ni.

[yt]SuKt618_tlc[/yt]

This is one of the kata we learnt the bukai for from Taira Sensei at the Jundokan. When you see it performed full speed it is amazing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exHbX8gvmO0&feature=related

 

[Nomad]

1) The kata flows with each technique being a 'finishing' move unless it is blocked.
2) The kata is not designed to be used against martial artists but against street thugs.
3) Kata is for close fighting, not sparring distance.
4) Turns in kata reflect location in relation to your attacker.
5) Most strikes are to the head (even gedan if the preceeding move has caused the attacker to bend or fall)
6) Kata relies on 'predictive' response.
:asian:

I think we have a similar approach to bunkai; one minor difference would be that I tend to think of throws or takedowns for many of the turns in kata. I definitely like the strike to the forearm to turn the attacker's head and bring them closer, followed by a strike to any of multiple pressure points on the head/neck (depends on body position of attacker at that point).

I'd also like to add that in general, bunkai is not something you do "with" a partner, but to an attacker; in other words, if your interpretation requires specific multiple attacks from an opponent (eg right middle punch, then left head punch), then it's unlikely to be the best application.

Another rule for those studying bunkai is to look at all parts of the movement; sometimes the most important part of the application comes from the "preparation" of the movement...

 

[K-man]

I think we have a similar approach to bunkai; one minor difference would be that I tend to think of throws or takedowns for many of the turns in kata. I definitely like the strike to the forearm to turn the attacker's head and bring them closer, followed by a strike to any of multiple pressure points on the head/neck (depends on body position of attacker at that point).

I'd also like to add that in general, bunkai is not something you do "with" a partner, but to an attacker; in other words, if your interpretation requires specific multiple attacks from an opponent (eg right middle punch, then left head punch), then it's unlikely to be the best application.

Another rule for those studying bunkai is to look at all parts of the movement; sometimes the most important part of the application comes from the "preparation" of the movement...

Spot on. I agree completely with your comment about the locks and throws. They tend to be omitted from the simple explanations but they are most certainly there.
There are different levels of bunkai ranging from the simple to the complex depending on the skill of the practitioner.
Perhaps we could look at Saifa kata in light of locks and throws.
Bunkai can be tested with a partner but the only move that the partner makes is the initial attack. That could be punch, grab, kick etc. After that every move from the partner is a 'predictive' response. If the partner fails to stop your attack the scenario is over, just as the use of the kata in a real situation with a real attacker has the same result.
Years ago when I was part of Goju Kai we had bunkai that was just non practical and unfortunately it is still being taught in other breakaway styles to this very day. All moves choreographed, and no practical benefit.
If you look carefully at the Jundokan bunkai I posted the link to, the attacker has started with a left jab. From there to the end every move is one of necessity to avoid being hit. :asian:

 

[Nomad]

Saifa is a kata I've learned the moves to, but isn't one of our core katas, so I haven't looked into it too deeply at this point. Please share your ideas on it.

 

[dancingalone]

Saifa is a kata I've learned the moves to, but isn't one of our core katas, so I haven't looked into it too deeply at this point. Please share your ideas on it.

Which style do you do, Nomad?

Here is a basic application. I've seen Goju people from virtually every lineage teach this one, so it's fairly universal. In reference to the uraken performed as you turn to the back and then a chudan level under cut punch...

Whip your forearm through your opponent's upper guard. This is a hard style application where strength and speed is important. Strike at temple or bridge of nose with the knuckles as you complete penetrating his guard. Using the striking arm/fist, grab the hair of the opponent and pull him down and towards you. Strike him with a short uppercut or a short reverse thrust punch. Finish with a neck throw.

 

[K-man]

Which style do you do, Nomad?

Here is a basic application. I've seen Goju people from virtually every lineage teach this one, so it's fairly universal. In reference to the uraken performed as you turn to the back and then a chudan level under cut punch...

Whip your forearm through your opponent's upper guard. This is a hard style application where strength and speed is important. Strike at temple or bridge of nose with the knuckles as you complete penetrating his guard. Using the striking arm/fist, grab the hair of the opponent and pull him down and towards you. Strike him with a short uppercut or a short reverse thrust punch. Finish with a neck throw.

Just a quick question. Is this a throw at the beginning of the kata or the end? I'm thinking that the strike you are describing is a hammerfist in our kata followed by the shita tsuki. However, there is a backfist in the opening sequence as well. Both can end of with neck cranks.