Anyone see this Muay Thai (I think) vs Street Fighting

[lma]

I think guy shoulda got put down quicker, I'd like to think I would but who knows for sure....

 

[Cyriacus]

Well, its worth remembering that Kickboxing, MMA, Muay Thai, Karate, and LOTS of other Styles all teach these Techniques.
I wouldnt be attempting to guess at what it is without hearing it from either one of the People involved, or the News.

I can remember one Video, which you can find Re-Uploaded numerous times with a different MA Badged onto it each time.

 

[ATACX GYM]

This is a classic example of how both guys were earnestly aggressive,not really throwing heavy fire but the trained fighter (the security guard named "KARATE",lol) had a very clear advantage technically and in defense.Every last shot of any "consequence" was thrown and landed by "KARATE" and every blocked and defended blow was also executed by KARATE (at least from what I saw on the video).Even though he was waaay too "right handed" in his attack imo,our boi KARATE also executed 3 techs that are pretty rarely seen thrown competently in streetfights: the uppercut and elbow strike thrown with some competence,the MT clinch and the knee to the head. The only thing that was missing was the employment of kicks before KARATE got within punch range.The BG who got arrested--Turner,I think--profitted from the fact that security guards have specific ROEs that prevent preemptive blows and strikes from being launched unless they are protecting others or the suspect is clearly engaged in criminal and potentially physically dangerous (to the security guard) actions. Even though a feint jab-lead leg push kick (foot jab)-jab-full powered shin kick to the groin,leg,or body would have probably ended it? Most of the scraps that I've seen between even skilled and nonskilled guys end with neither really injured but with the trained fighter enjoying a distinct advantage in every area. I've trained many security guys and HRSP types and have worked security myself. In 59 of the 64 instances I made a solo arrest I shut the BG down with either a hold,throw,sweep,choke,lock,slam or a TKO.The other times they complied on their own once I overmastered or threatened to overmaster them.The "lights out" scenario was most rare even for me.What are you guys' expereinces in this area?

 

[punisher73]

From an LEO perspective it looked like the security guard didn't have a gameplan on what he really wanted to accomplish. It almost looked as if he was viewing it as a sparring match and making exchanges as opposed to attempting to take it to the ground to subdue and restrain.

What I did find of interst was the attacker's choice of first attack. He does a stepthrough and then an overhand right close to the stepping motion, yet over and over people decry that you will NEVER see a stepthrough on "the street". Also, he looked kind of lost when that first big punch didn't work for him.

 

[JohnEdward]

What in god's name was that? A free amateur fight. A toe to toe match, the class fight between the technical fighter vs. the slugger, with the decision going to the technical fighter for is "strong steady footwork." A fight that didn't leave anything out with all the trash talk and hype of a pro boxing match. Loved the news color commentary, "perfect footwork in control, failing leap, but check out that block! Any fighter knows what this guard is doing [trying to keep from getting is butt kicked essential]." And then the new commentator calls the fight MMA and then it's Karate! It doesn't get better than that.

 

[jks9199]

From an LEO perspective it looked like the security guard didn't have a gameplan on what he really wanted to accomplish. It almost looked as if he was viewing it as a sparring match and making exchanges as opposed to attempting to take it to the ground to subdue and restrain.

What I did find of interst was the attacker's choice of first attack. He does a stepthrough and then an overhand right close to the stepping motion, yet over and over people decry that you will NEVER see a stepthrough on "the street". Also, he looked kind of lost when that first big punch didn't work for him.

Yep. He "boxed" rather than dominated and take it to an arrest situation right away. Pretty fight -- but it went on way too long.

 

[wingc]

aaoutss!! I think that security man (MMA) could knock out him (the fighter) but he was a little bit "unfortunate". I liked that he was covering himself with his hands and the knee.

 

[thegatekeeper]

Seen this. Before making any conclusion like I did, you would be well to know that the guard was off duty and that the "thug" didn't really do anything. Looks to me like the guard has a case of god complex.

 

[Zenjael]

Despite a good guard, some of the hits did get through to his face. Honestly, he's more lucky he went against somebody clearly with minimal training, than somebody more dangerous who are out there.That first block was excellent, he had the clear upper hand after that. I wish he had taken it to finish the fight for safeties sake, than letting the situation go and protracting the fight.

In a situation like that, it's best to play it safe, and if you're going to fight, every second is another one where you could be killed. That's a negative in my book. If this was really self-defense... it would have been treated as such. I wouldn't pull a punch to the neck or temple if the life were in danger, but I couldn't kill the other either. I wish I'd seen a knee to the groin, anything to minimize letting the other keep wildly clubbing.

 

[frank raud]

Despite a good guard, some of the hits did get through to his face. Honestly, he's more lucky he went against somebody clearly with minimal training, than somebody more dangerous who are out there.That first block was excellent, he had the clear upper hand after that. I wish he had taken it to finish the fight for safeties sake, than letting the situation go and protracting the fight.

In a situation like that, it's best to play it safe, and if you're going to fight, every second is another one where you could be killed. That's a negative in my book. If this was really self-defense... it would have been treated as such. I wouldn't pull a punch to the neck or temple if the life were in danger, but I couldn't kill the other either. I wish I'd seen a knee to the groin, anything to minimize letting the other keep wildly clubbing.

When two fighters exchange blows, it doesn't matter how good your guard is, some hits are going to land. Being killed is a negative in your book? Good to know.

 

[Cyriacus]

Despite a good guard, some of the hits did get through to his face. Honestly, he's more lucky he went against somebody clearly with minimal training, than somebody more dangerous who are out there.That first block was excellent, he had the clear upper hand after that. I wish he had taken it to finish the fight for safeties sake, than letting the situation go and protracting the fight.

In a situation like that, it's best to play it safe, and if you're going to fight, every second is another one where you could be killed. That's a negative in my book. If this was really self-defense... it would have been treated as such. I wouldn't pull a punch to the neck or temple if the life were in danger, but I couldn't kill the other either. I wish I'd seen a knee to the groin, anything to minimize letting the other keep wildly clubbing.

Because You can obviously just traipse up and Groin-Knee someone, easy as that. And of course itll always be effective.

/Sarcasm

Your reasoning is correct, even if the conclusion was faulty.

 

[Zenjael]

Never... but you'd have to be a fool not to take the opportunity when it presents itself... and it does, multiple times. If you can't see that in the video, than you're just being stubborn for the sake of stubbornness. If there wasn't an opening to do just that, I wouldn't have recommended it as a course of action.

 

[Cyriacus]

Of course I can see it.
But A: Low Knees lack particularly much Power, therefore it comes down to drive.
B: I also see plenty of openings for hooking punches every couple of seconds, and just about any midsection kick.
C: Strikes to the groin are highly unreliable.
D: Fighting is not an orderly thing, and being mentally stable enough at the time to see these openings that stand out from a camera accross the street isnt the same as seeing them in reality, then attempting to do the maneauvre thatd best fit the nook, and succeeding, and it actually being effective enough to have been worth the effort.
E: The other person isnt just going to stand there while You knee them. Assuming You did knee them, They wont suddenly collapse in pain or stand still from shock. Itll probably just provoke them more, due to the nature of the strike. I can find plenty of others whove said the same in another Thread, a while ago.

 

[Zenjael]

I would love to meet someone who a solid round-house, or muai thai knee to the groin, won't put down. I consider myself rather durable in that region, and can take about 3 hits to the groin, in succession, before I need to sit out. Find me these people who can resist the force of a car going 25 mph into their groin, and I'll happily eat my own belt. And Gi, it can be the TKD one, or Karate, you can choose. Cause I'd like to learn the pain masking technique they are using to get over the pain to that region- I don't think it exists.

I agree with you B point completely. Some kicks would have been nice. I am torn on C. Between the groin and neck, I'd go for the neck, but if the groin is open, it takes a 6th of a second to hit, so why not try to?

You are so right that fighting is not orderly. I hope you have not had to have first-hand experience to find that. I just down-right disagree with A, I believe fight science proved that the strongest kick across multiple styles is the muai thai knee. True, it is re-directed from the sternum and middle of body to the groin, but you should be able to generate as much force, or nearly as much. It'll also be much faster, with less length to go.

What you'd really need to worry about, in relation to unreliability is that instinct to avoid damage to the groin. But at that point, why not fake them out, forcing their instinct to kick in, and elbow them to the throat? They'd be practically sticking their head out at you after the fake.

It's a strategy, and it's what I'd try to do, given that is the best option at that time.

At the high school I went to sack tapping became a huge fag. I broke one kid's middle finger when he tried to slap my nugs, and I had a TI-83 calculator wedged into my pants to protect the nads. I remember, very vividly, having fun with people with rolled up school newspapers, where I'd tap them on the head, forcing their arms up, and popping them in the nugs.

Kids. We do stupid things. Sack-tapping was perhaps the stupidest. I almost lost an eye because of it- a kid in retaliation slapped me in the face, at a time when my glasses were without the plastic protectors. Tore my eye-lid open. I got sent home within minutes and had to have minor stitches. But it doesn't change the fact that it taught me fake's work, when they are deliberate, and have a point to back up the fake. And that point is your bone in their soft-tissue, putting them down hard enough they won't raise their hand to you ever again.

 

[Cyriacus]

I would love to meet someone who a solid round-house, or muai thai knee to the groin, won't put down. I consider myself rather durable in that region, and can take about 3 hits to the groin, in succession, before I need to sit out. Find me these people who can resist the force of a car going 25 mph into their groin, and I'll happily eat my own belt. And Gi, it can be the TKD one, or Karate, you can choose. Cause I'd like to learn the pain masking technique they are using to get over the pain to that region- I don't think it exists.

Actually, it does. Its called Conditioning the Pelvis. Im a bit weirded out by the concept too, if thats any connection Ive been kicked in the groin twice in the last couple of months to no effect. They were accidental, and rather hard, and all they really did is cause a small adrenal response.

I agree with you B point completely. Some kicks would have been nice. I am torn on C. Between the groin and neck, I'd go for the neck, but if the groin is open, it takes a 6th of a second to hit, so why not try to?

The same could be said of jabbing the forearms. It doesnt do much, and it isnt overly effective.

You are so right that fighting is not orderly. I hope you have not had to have first-hand experience to find that.

I have, unfortunately, had first hand experience. But people tend to underestimate how disorderly oneself becomes when engaged in Violence. Its one thing to say that Fighting is disorderly, and another to experience it, and find that any sense of thinking goes right out the window from the get go.

I just down-right disagree with A, I believe fight science proved that the strongest kick across multiple styles is the muai thai knee. True, it is re-directed from the sternum and middle of body to the groin, but you should be able to generate as much force, or nearly as much. It'll also be much faster, with less length to go.

They also proved that TKD Roundhouses can supposedly kill someone on contact, and are more powerful than Muay Thai Roundhouses and Karate Front Kicks. Apparently Capoeira Kicks are even better still. These studies are highly subjective. I can also find You a Video of someone being lifted up off the ground by a groin kick, and just calmly standing there the whole time. As for speed, thats what I was saying. Traveling further increases Power, but reduces Drive. Low Distance = More Drive, More Speed, but a ton less Power. Theres a time and place for both, but the Groin either needs Power, or a forceful Grab.

What you'd really need to worry about, in relation to unreliability is that instinct to avoid damage to the groin.

Exactly. Which is also why being struck there tends to cause people to get angry, more than anything else.

But at that point, why not fake them out, forcing their instinct to kick in, and elbow them to the throat? They'd be practically sticking their head out at you after the fake.

Potentially, assuming You successfully managed to stabilise Yourself, then set up Your Position, then initiate a Fake, then actually follow on after they presumably fall for it. The only faking ive ever seen work is hit high then hit low type things. Or the opposite. Faking with distractions tends to just do nothing, whilst They continue trying to hit You in the fact, like Attackers tend to.

It's a strategy, and it's what I'd try to do, given that is the best option at that time.

Good for You

At the high school I went to sack tapping became a huge fag. I broke one kid's middle finger when he tried to slap my nugs, and I had a TI-83 calculator wedged into my pants to protect the nads. I remember, very vividly, having fun with people with rolled up school newspapers, where I'd tap them on the head, forcing their arms up, and popping them in the nugs.

Im pretty sure walking up to some unsuspecting person and distracting them with a bop from a Newspaper is different to trying to convince someone whos current sole aim in life is to hurt you to suddenly raise their arms so you can kick them in their groin is a touch unlikely.

Kids. We do stupid things. Sack-tapping was perhaps the stupidest. I almost lost an eye because of it- a kid in retaliation slapped me in the face, at a time when my glasses were without the plastic protectors. Tore my eye-lid open. I got sent home within minutes and had to have minor stitches. But it doesn't change the fact that it taught me fake's work, when they are deliberate, and have a point to back up the fake.

Its worth remembering that You were not fighting these people. These were not violent brawls.

And that point is your bone in their soft-tissue, putting them down hard enough they won't raise their hand to you ever again.

Blunt forced trauma can have that effect.

*nods

 

[frank raud]

I would love to meet someone who a solid round-house, or muai thai knee to the groin, won't put down. I consider myself rather durable in that region, and can take about 3 hits to the groin, in succession, before I need to sit out. Find me these people who can resist the force of a car going 25 mph into their groin, and I'll happily eat my own belt. And Gi, it can be the TKD one, or Karate, you can choose. Cause I'd like to learn the pain masking technique they are using to get over the pain to that region- I don't think it exists.[/QUOTE

Combat Ki

 

[Zenjael]

That was awesome, thank you.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

 

[K-man]

To me the most interesting observation was that Morgan Turner was meant to be the professional fighter. What he demonstrated was the typical signs of adrenal dump. He forgot his training, dropped his guard and began swinging his arms wildly. After the first few seconds he does compose himself a little but his guard was still low. Karate, on the other hand, displayed much more control suggesting to me that he has been in plenty of serious engagements, either ring or street.

As for lack of kicks. Alex, you obviously have never been in a real fight or even heavy sparring for that matter. You can only kick when you have a solid base. From my observation every time Karate had his balance and the opportunity presented, he used his foot or knee. However, he probably reasons that if you keep your feet firmly on the ground you are less likely to end up on your ****! :asian:

 

[Zenjael]

Alex, you obviously have never been in a real fight or even heavy sparring for that matter. You can only kick when you have a solid base.

The first part is conjecture, I hope you don't mind me affirming or denying it. I know my history, you do not. That being said, there are many kicks which require having a poor base, or even no base, though they are difficult to execute, and most are effectively crap in a fight, and impractical. A 540 kick is one. Spinning jump reverse hook-kick are others. You can't say a person has a good base, either, no matter the aereil technique. I love aerial techniques, just kick them in the thigh, or apply any force and they usually crumple.

A base is important for most kicks... but not all kicks. Ask any TKD practitioner, I am certain they can affirm quite a few techniques exist which leave one very vulnerable, have a crappy base (for example, there is a stomp side-kick in Hun-Gar with incredible damage, but the stomp and lowering slows it down. A double edged-sword, in a sense).

To be honest, most ways I know of knocking a person over while they are kicking also presents an availability to be grabbed. But, it is certainly something based on the situation, rather than whatever theory we want to banter about here.

It just occurred to me after I posted- what relevance does my martial background really matter when it comes to 'fighting' and whatever you mean by it. Every fight I've been in, the other never used kicks. And by fight I mean they were mugging me. When you remove the timeframe which allows for sparring (which sparring always adds to the equation, even if its one step) on the street, in a FIGHT, there is no time for calculation, counter. You might be lucky to see the attack coming, and then you better be prepared to do what you can to survive. I often consider martial arts an art like painting- it is beautiful. I love Bagua, but when I'm mugged, it's krav maga I resort to now, everytime, because I know it works. Plus I'm overly agressive, which kinda of ties together well with the epistemology of krav maga. Sorry for the tangent.

You'll notice most 'fights' be it with civilian or martial artist, tends to devolve to where the artist can't even use their art. They can defend themselves, and put the other in the hospital... hopefully.