Anyone heard of San Yama Bushi Ryu
- Thread starter AJH40
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Chris Parker
Grandmaster
I'm sure the dojo legitimately teaches San Yama Bushi Ryu... if that helps. If you're asking if it's a legitimate Japanese system, especially if it's a Koryu (traditional, old school), then no, it's not. It's a modern Western (American) system. Is it good? Well, I wouldn't go there... but that's because I'm really only interested in the old Japanese material. The names a dead giveaway that little is understood about Japanese arts and culture, though....
But, as with everything, although it doesn't match what I'd be looking for, I'd still say go and check them out. You might like it... in fact, actual traditional Jujutsu you might not like at all, and this could be a better fit. Only one way to find out... and it ain't by asking strangers on a forum....
But, as with everything, although it doesn't match what I'd be looking for, I'd still say go and check them out. You might like it... in fact, actual traditional Jujutsu you might not like at all, and this could be a better fit. Only one way to find out... and it ain't by asking strangers on a forum....
frank raud
Master of Arts
San Yama is an offshoot of Miyama ryu, which was developed in the Bronx in the 60's. The original dojo was on Tremont, semi French for three mountains. Hence the name Miyama ryu, and San Yama. The original name was French(sort of) to English to Japanese, then a variation on it. Probably why it is not grammatically correct in any language.
I don't know too much about what Negron sensei has done with it since 1991, but I've been a Miyama ryu practitioner since the early eighties.......you can read about the founding of Miyama ryu here. Basically, it's self-defense: an awful lot of WWII era style judo, WWII era military combatives, some boxing and wrestling, and a little aikido, a little Sosuishitsu ryu jujutsu, and even less karate, all with kata focused on western street crime as it existed in what was then called the "Fort Apache" section of the Bronx, from the sixties to the nineties.
An awful lot like what some people used to call "dirty judo."
It's not koryu-it is usually good, solid self defense, whether it's Miyama Ryu, San Yama Bushi Ryu or any of the other variants that have taken place over the decades-and most schools also have judo: if you're interested in competing, there's judo, and if you're interested in self-defense, there's a way to use judo, and if you're interested in both,well, there's both. Many schools also practice some koryu or "koryuish" arts like iaido, and, particularly, Muso Shinden Ryu jo, as well as some form of karate.
Do as others have said, and check it out for yourself-it'll either fit, or it won't.It's usually a bit "rough and tumble," so don't expect to be treated gently-not abused.....just bruised. :lol2:
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Hmm.... Muso Shinden Ryu Jo? That's a new one... ha!
Everything I've seen from them seems to me to be rather schizoid in their approach... the same as a number of other modern systems from a similar pedigree, they seem to be unsure about exactly what they want to be. There's a lot of traditional-looking material, with techniques against more traditional attacks (ones that simply aren't dealt with today), and then refer to such things as "self defence". To me, that's an incongruence. They seems to be some good, solid training methods (particularly in the "Judo-esque" throws), but the lack of actual awareness or defined direction would throw me. But, as always, the best thing you can do is to go along to one of the classes... it might be perfect for you.
Yeah, my ,mistake-back east, some people are doing Muso Shinden Ryu Iaido, and/or Shinto Muso Ryu jo (this last with the Skosses. I'm not involved with either of those, and don't really know much-as in anything- about them.) As for the rest of what you say, well, Chris, we're always entitled to your opinion. :lfao:
Here's another, though, about one of the books on Miyama Ryu:
And I don't really know how much San Yama Bushi Ryu has diverged from Miyama Ryu, but having known Negron sensei back in the 80's and 90's before he went on his own, I'd say probably not too much: fundamentally, it's mostly judo, like I said before....
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Hey, Elder,
Yeah, mistakes just make life fun...! SMR Jo is going to be with Meik, most likely... not sure what Diane's involvement in SMR is. They're both involved in Toda-ha Buko Ryu, and Yagyu Shinkage Ryu.
As far as my opinion, it wasn't on Miyama Ryu, it was on what I've seen of San Yama Bushi Ryu... some examples of what I'm talking about are here:
The attacks aren't really like anything in a modern assault... and are fairly "traditional", when it all comes down to it. Except this is classed and shown as "self defence". Okay, cool and happy, and not too dissimilar to many, many other systems. Nicely performed in the main, and, as you say, there's a lot of Judo in there. But it's missing quite a bit to make it a traditional approach/methodology, and it's not really dealing with modern violence in a way that would make it a modern self defence system (to my mind). So, is it modern self defence, or is it traditional Jujutsu? That's what I meant when I described it as a bit schizoid for my tastes. But, as I also said, that just means it doesn't suit me... not that it's bad, ineffective, or anything negative at all.
Yeah, mistakes just make life fun...! SMR Jo is going to be with Meik, most likely... not sure what Diane's involvement in SMR is. They're both involved in Toda-ha Buko Ryu, and Yagyu Shinkage Ryu.
As far as my opinion, it wasn't on Miyama Ryu, it was on what I've seen of San Yama Bushi Ryu... some examples of what I'm talking about are here:
The attacks aren't really like anything in a modern assault... and are fairly "traditional", when it all comes down to it. Except this is classed and shown as "self defence". Okay, cool and happy, and not too dissimilar to many, many other systems. Nicely performed in the main, and, as you say, there's a lot of Judo in there. But it's missing quite a bit to make it a traditional approach/methodology, and it's not really dealing with modern violence in a way that would make it a modern self defence system (to my mind). So, is it modern self defence, or is it traditional Jujutsu? That's what I meant when I described it as a bit schizoid for my tastes. But, as I also said, that just means it doesn't suit me... not that it's bad, ineffective, or anything negative at all.
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Yeah, your opinion would apply to Miyama Ryu as well-those are all pretty much straight from Miyama Ryu, even the order in which they were performed.
As for the "schizoid" nature, we do try to be a bit of both to a certain degree. In any case, what appears to be "fairly traditional" to you is also pretty exemplary of street crime attacks one might have encountered in the South Bronx back in the 60's.....it's important to remember that the Tremont Dojo is pretty much in the heart of what became the infamous Fort Apache section of the Bronx, for a time-it was developed in a crime laboratory, with students regularly returning to report on what worked, and what didn't work for them....
.....I also don't think there are many videos of the "combatives" side of things-on the internet or DVD....
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Rico San
White Belt
Symantec’s aside, the name was adapted from where the original school was started, Tremont Ave, Bronx New York. Its founder was Shinan Antonio Pereira who did in fact study in Japan and under Morihei Ueshiba. Pereira was a special forces member and was widely respected as a legitimate practitioner of Jujutsu and Judo. San Yama Bushi Ryu was expanded exponentially and derived from Mi Yama Ryu “from where the warrior traveled.” This system was founded by Shinan H. Negron, the Dai Shihan of Mi Yama Ryu, under Shinan Pereira, who himself has spent over 60 years in the martial arts and who also holds a 5th Dan in Judo from the Kōdōkan. He is widely known in the world of martial arts and has appeared in martial arts publications since the 1970s. As a 30 year student of Shinan Negron and a police defensive tactics instructor, I can assure anyone that this system is legitimate and is traditional Japanese Jujutsu. Anyone who disparages this system with snide remarks about its name or its origins and legitimacy, clearly doesn’t have as good a grasp on martial arts as they portend to have. The Hombu dojo of San Yama Bushi Ryu, located in New Rochelle NY, has several charter schools in New York, Georgia, Florida, North Carolina, Puerto Rico and the Dominican Republic.
Hyoho
2nd Black Belt
Any idea of the Kanji for this ryu? Shinan Antonio Pereira seems to be listed as Miyama and not San Yama. The Mi could be the kanji for mitsu also meaning three, so "Mitsu no Yama" is still three mountains. and somewhere along the way became read as the basic "San". Just asking. You cant set semantics aside. Japanese can be a very complex language to those with little knowledge of it. It is possible to promulgate something without studying much Japanese On the other hand some even change the reading slightly in forming a new group. Even Japanese. For example the word for a sword can be Ken or To. So we end up with Kendo or Todo.
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Rico San
White Belt
Again, we are discussing semantics here, with no relevance to the teachings, but if you insist, prepare to learn. “The name Tremont has its roots in French and Latin. It is derived from the French word “montagne,” which means mountain, and the Latin word “triformis,” which means three-formed or three-peaked. This suggests that the name Tremont may have originally referred to a mountain with three peaks or a place with three distinct hills”. So, “Mi Yama Ryu,” meaning beautiful mountain school, located on Tremont Ave in the Bronx NY, thus the name of Shinan Negron school’s (Ryu) origin, Tremont (Three mountains or peaks), “San (three in Japanese) Yama (mountain in Japanese) Bushi (warrior in Japanese) Ryu (tradition/school in Japanese). In a nutshell, the ryu originated in Tremont, and San Yama Bushi Ryu is an homage to that Origen. Now, more importantly, we can continue to discuss names, correct Japanese translations, past tense, blah, blah, blah, the important point is that it is a legitimate Japanese based martial art. Not an offshoot of or “dirty Judo,” since Judo (a sport, derived from the war art of ju-Jutsu) is a child of Ju-Jutsu, as is Aikido. My premise remains the same, those who claim to have studied under Pereira and Mi Yama Ryu and know nothing of Shinan Negron, are simply ill informed and likely have never really studied under Pereira. I direct you to the many photos, seminars, demonstrations, articles wherein Pereira demonstrated techniques and always used Dai Shihan (First Student or next in lineage) H. Negron in said demonstrations. Unfortunately, forums such as these remind me why in my 35 years in the martial arts (and a federal law enforcement defensive tactics instructor), I was reluctant to engage in frivolous back and forth banter. I sincerely hope I was able to answer your questions and wish you luck in your martial arts endeavors.
Hyoho
2nd Black Belt
Sixty two years of MA and Koryu for me, most of it teaching in Japan professionally including Police headquarters. With that I have no reluctance in discussing these things It was not my intention to criticize the school. I have no interest in this school whatsoever as to it being authentic and its legitimacy. Just a mention of the use of Japanese names. French or any other use of language have zero pertinence in Japanese Maybe we can start calling a Mitsubishi car a Sanbishi?
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Rico San
White Belt
Yes! That sir sounds like an excellent idea, maybe they will sell more cars…
You taught the police in Japan? That's excellent. I am assuming you are from Japan? My wife is from Osaka, born and raised. We visited last year. Are the police in Japan required to train in MA?
Hyoho
2nd Black Belt
Requirement to join the police is Sandan in Kendo, Judo, or Karate. Kidotai (riot squad) have very professional teams. They also do kakutogi mixing the three arts to do inter police competition.
