Another Decriminalise Drugs Thread

[ballen0351]

The key here isn't whether all drug related crimes will end. It won't. What lifting the prohibition will do is allow lawful citizens to manufacture and sell safer, regulated versions to people who are using them anyway.

You can do that now. People are always coming up with new synthetic drugs. They are legal for years until they are shown to be deadly. Things like K2, spice, and other synthetic drugs are legal. So if you want to manufacture and process a safe legal drug there is nothing stopping you from doing it.

It will also get many of the drug users out of our jails and justice system.

Most drug users are in jail for other crimes not for simple possession of drugs. Most are in jail after many many arrests for things like theft which you already admit won't stop just because drugs are legal.

And also, bear in mind that legal doesn't mean everyone will immediately become crack addled, druggies. We can also look to alcohol for a great example of how shifting our social stance and applying social pressure is far more effective than banning. Thirty years ago, driving under the influence was tolerated and largely ignored. It has always been illegal, but the key to reducing the number of DUI deaths dramatically has everything to do with education and social pressure.

Actually it had more to do with targeted enforcemnt and much harsher punishment. There is no social stigma to DUI. Every drunk I've ever arrests has said "why are you messing with me go find a real criminal". Or "your to scared to get a drug deal in the hood so your messing with us harmless drunks". Or mostly "I'm not even drunk". In fact it's still so prevalent they keep lowering the limit because people just don't get it. In the last 10 years its gone from .12 to .10 to .08 and now we are thinking of dropping it again to .06.

Marijuana is the most widely used, illegal drug, and it's use is pervasive. The second worst are already legal, prescription pain killers.


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speaking of pain killers after we make drugs do we make all drugs legal to buy for everyone? Cancer drugs legal, anitbiotics legal, high blood pressure legal, anti depressants? If not then why? Why should we limit some and not others?

 

[Makalakumu]

Sure because nobody does anything thats legal thats dangerous to their health

They usually only do that when the government controls the market...which is the simple truth of prohibition. The government is attempting to control the market. It doesn't work.

Anyway, so what if people still want to use heroin. The services to support such a dangerous habit would spring up and get cheaper and cheaper. They may even start turning people on to safer alternatives by educating them and providing access.

This is what makes government prohibition so stupid and anti-human. It's destructive because the solution to social problems is violence instead of creativity and rationality.

 

[Steve]

So We need to make it legal because people still do it even when its illegal is the real straw man.
More people steal everyday then use drugs. Stealing is illegal yet its done millions of times a day. Guess we should make that legal as well since the "war on theft" is a failure.

we can see clearly that making drugs illegal creates an entire economy that is dangerous, violent and completely unnecessary. You can't seriously compare the violence of the cartels and Mexican gangs, as well as the local violence, the money wasted prosecuting and jailing users and everything else associated with the war on drugs to theft.

The closest you can get would be organized retail crime, a costly but far less violent phenomenon.

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[Tgace]

we can see clearly that making drugs illegal creates an entire economy that is dangerous, violent and completely unnecessary. You can't seriously compare the violence of the cartels and Mexican gangs, as well as the local violence, the money wasted prosecuting and jailing users and everything else associated with the war on drugs to theft.

The closest you can get would be organized retail crime, a costly but far less violent phenomenon.

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The cartels are not burglarizing homes or holding up gas stations in my neighborhood to get money for smack....users are.

You apparently never fought with a shoplifter either....

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[Steve]

The cartels are not burglarizing homes or holding up gas stations in my neighborhood to get money for smack....users are.

You apparently never fought with a shoplifter either....

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Round and round the circular logic goes.


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[Tgace]

Legalizing something isn't the same thing as endorsing something. Heroin will never be a good idea, but what we are doing now isn't keeping people from becoming addicts. Is it?

You're arguing a straw man, here.

Edit to add: the irony that you invent a straw man to argue, and while ignoring the apples to apples lessons we learned from prohibition, you suggest I'm failing to learn from history,

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And you ignore the fact that opiates assure physical dependence....perhaps not psychological addiction, but assured....get sick if you don't continue to use it dependence. Yeah, lets have that available for recreational consumption....sounds great.

And legalizing substances that result in behaviors you see in PCP users and bath salt psychotics is downright stupid....

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[Tgace]

Round and round the circular logic goes.


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Back at ya.

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[ballen0351]

Round and round the circular logic goes.


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You didn't answer my question about other drugs like antibiotics, cancer drugs, pain killers ect. If we make drugs legal for all do we make all drugs legal for all. If not why?

 

[Tgace]

I would consider decriminalization of small possession quantities...as in a ticket if you get caught instead of jail (where I am that's pretty much what users get anyway...nobody goes to prison for a rock if crack). But no way would I support decriminalization of sale or possession of distribution quantities or commercial sale of anything more potent than marijuana.

Marijuana...personally I wouldn't vote for it but I wouldn't protest if I were outvoted.

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[Steve]

You didn't answer my question about other drugs like antibiotics, cancer drugs, pain killers ect. If we make drugs legal for all do we make all drugs legal for all. If not why?

Legal doesn't mean unregulated, unfettered access for everyone.

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[Steve]

Marijuana...personally I wouldn't vote for it but I wouldn't protest if I were outvoted.

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On that front, I'd say we are less than a decade before seeing it legal in most, if not all of the 50 states.

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[Tgace]

Legal doesn't mean unregulated, unfettered access for everyone.

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So what does it mean? So if a kid wanted a bundle of smack he wouldn't be able to get it? There would be no more dealers?

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[ballen0351]

Legal doesn't mean unregulated, unfettered access for everyone.

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So you would need a prescription for crack from your doc? Or marijuana? I'm not talking about kids or anything I mean why should I be allowed to buy crack at tge corner drug store and not amoxicillin or insulin

 

[Tgace]

On that front, I'd say we are less than a decade before seeing it legal in most, if not all of the 50 states.

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I dont know about "legal"...I could see decriminalization.

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[Drasken]

This is an interesting subject on both sides. And both sides have some decent points.
However, my opinion is that some drugs should indeed be legal. Marijuana and mushrooms being the biggest and possibly only ones that are in that list.
They are non addictive, you can't overdose on them and several studies have shown many benefits to their use while disproving the demonization and BS about their dangers.
And while I can agree that opiates are a horrible substance to be addicted to, I have to disagree that alcohol is not comparable. I know people, who have taken opiate painkillers through prescription. I have known idiots who did so recreationally and did not become addicted due to the infrequency of use ( and note that I do not agree with their choices ). I have also known people who drank socially and became alcoholics. And withdrawals from alcohol CAN kill you once you are physically addicted.

So yeah, alcohol is a horrible drug. It has destroyed many lives, and to say it is not comparable to other horrible drugs is just stupid. Alcoholism is a real problem here.

Also, keep in mind that several successful people have been caught with Pot. So really, explain how a non addictive substance with no risk of overdose or chemical dependance is illegal and has many users behind bars. Yet a substance that you can easily overdose on, has risk of chemical dependance through extended use, and has nowhere near the health benefits of the former illegal substance is legal and perfectly acceptable?


I'm not saying "let's go buy Meth at the corner store." But you must admit that our current system needs a change.

 

[Makalakumu]

And you ignore the fact that opiates assure physical dependence....perhaps not psychological addiction, but assured....get sick if you don't continue to use it dependence. Yeah, lets have that available for recreational consumption....sounds great.

And legalizing substances that result in behaviors you see in PCP users and bath salt psychotics is downright stupid....

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No one will use them if they become legal. When the government stops trying to control what people put into their bodies, the free market will create cleaner, safer and cheaper drugs. It will also create services for terrible and dangerous habits. It will also create alternatives that drug users will use instead of the crap you see now.

The problem here is that you seem to be convinced in this one instance the free market won't deliver what it has delivered in every single instance in the past where it is allowed to flourish. Your denial is akin to dropping your keys and expecting them to fall upward. It's anti-rational and completely unjustified.

This kind of sociological delusion is the biggest barrier that mankind has toward progress, IMHO.

 

[Tgace]

Dont confuse physical dependence with addiction. I can drink a beer every day and not become physically dependent on alcohol. I can also drink to extreme intoxication on rare occasion and not become dependent or addicted. It has to do with frequency and volume. Drinking alcohol is not always about intoxication. I rarely drink enough to even notice a "buzz".

The entire point of taking opiates is to feel the effect. If I take a hit of heroin daily I will HAVE to...without exception...increase my dosage as time passes to get the intox effect I am using it for in the first place. Heroin is highly addictive because it enters the brain so rapidly. It particularly affects those regions of the brain responsible for producing physical dependence.

Nobody is saying that Alcoholism is not a problem...or even recreational use that results in DWI deaths...and Alcohol DOES cause more aggressive behavior and fights than opiate use does. Certainly. I have fought far more drunks than I have people high on opiates. But the mechanisms in the body due to the simple purpose for taking the substances are quite different.

 

[ballen0351]

No one will use them if they become legal. When the government stops trying to control what people put into their bodies, the free market will create cleaner, safer and cheaper drugs. It will also create services for terrible and dangerous habits. It will also create alternatives that drug users will use instead of the crap you see now.

Wait so everyone know they are deadly, addictive, dangerous, but they only use them because they are illegal? So we make them legal and everyone will just stop huh?
The free market can already create cleaner safer cheaper drugs if they want to. Find a clean non-addictive drug to get people off Heroin and you will be a billionaire. They have tried Methadone, Suboxine, ect.

The problem here is that you seem to be convinced in this one instance the free market won't deliver what it has delivered in every single instance in the past where it is allowed to flourish. Your denial is akin to dropping your keys and expecting them to fall upward. It's anti-rational and completely unjustified.

Your problem is your deny that the free market can right now with out a change to the law create new drugs Phizer does it every day

This kind of sociological delusion is the biggest barrier that mankind has toward progress, IMHO.

Yes the biggest barrier to mankind is a lack of legal Crack

 

[Drasken]

Dont confuse physical dependence with addiction. I can drink a beer every day and not become physically dependent on alcohol. I can also drink to extreme intoxication on rare occasion and not become dependent or addicted. It has to do with frequency and volume. Drinking alcohol is not always about intoxication. I rarely drink enough to even notice a "buzz".

The entire point of taking opiates is to feel the effect. If I take a hit of heroin daily I will HAVE to...without exception...increase my dosage as time passes to get the intox effect I am using it for in the first place. Heroin is highly addictive because it enters the brain so rapidly. It particularly affects those regions of the brain responsible for producing physical dependence.

Nobody is saying that Alcoholism is not a problem...or even recreational use that results in DWI deaths...and Alcohol DOES cause more aggressive behavior and fights than opiate use does. Certainly. I have fought far more drunks than I have people high on opiates. But the mechanisms in the body due to the simple purpose for taking the substances are quite different.

Oh, I'm not arguing that it isn't easier to get addicted to opiates. But anyone who has witnessed detox from alcohol will tell you that it is worse than a detox from any opiate. While the opiate is horrible, alcohol withdrawal can kill you from the stress of the withdrawal itself as well. I know of a couple people that harmed themselves as well from hallucenating while detoxing from alcohol.

And since we have doctors across the country pushing pain pills we can't do much about opiate addiction. I have a friend with major back issues. To the point that he is losing ability to use his legs at times. The doctor won't write a prescription for him to get a wheelchair which he would need to be able to use it at work, because they say he would become dependant on the chair. But they keep trying to push for him to take strong opiate painkillers, which he is strongly opposed to. And this isn't one doctor, he has been to several.

Even still, my major point is that when we allow dangerous and highly addictive substances legally and not safe and beneficial substances, there is something seriously wrong. Look at tobacco. It is harmful and incredibly addictive. But it is legal, and controlled to keep it out of the hands of children. So yes, I see what you are saying and agree with many of your points. But logically you hopefully see the merits in other points of view as well right?

 

[Makalakumu]

Your problem is your deny that the free market can right now with out a change to the law create new drugs Phizer does it every day

I'm going to interpret this entrance because there are a couple of interesting little tidbits here. First of all, large drug companies like Merck cannot work with controlled substances without jumping through all kinds of legal hoops. It's a total bureaucratic mess. Secondly, we both know they would NEVER be able to work with these substances for recreational purposes. This is the barrier the government creates that hinders the free market in this instance.

Now, imagine that all of these laws are rescinded and that all of the government barriers are taken down. There is a 500 billion dollar global market in opium alone. Major drug companies are going to have a huge interest in jumping into this now legal market. This really does change everything because at least half a dozen multinational drug companies with the best r&d markets on the planet will compete to process these substances and work on safe alternatives.

All that needs to happen is for the government to get out of the way and this problem suddenly has a viable solution...and the citizens get a healthy tax break!