Annapolis is Pointless

[Big Don]

Note: This is a work of mine, I wrote every word.
The upcoming US brokered mid east peace conference in Annapolis is going to be nothing more than political theater. The Bush administration thought they had scored a coup by getting the Saudis to agree to participate. Yeah, not so much. The Saudis have preemptively refused to even shake hands with the Israelis.
Sooner or later we’ll have to face the fact that the Israeli/Palestinian problem wouldn’t exist if the Arabs weren’t the leading exporters of terrorism in the world. When the stated goal of one group is the extinction of the other, expecting reasonable, honest discourse from them is a waste of time and energy.
The US expends far too much energy walking on egg shells to not offend our supposed allies the Saudis. May I remind you, that fifteen of the nineteen hijackers on 9-11 were Saudis, and that Osama bin Laden just happens to be a Saudi his badself. Saudi funded madrassas teach hatred of the Jews and hatred of Western ideals, and you know, hatred of that GREAT SATAN, America.
The US government keeps counseling Israel to not fight the terrorists that send suicide bombers and rockets exploding into Israeli neighborhoods. Would Americans demonstrate the same forbearance if people were exploding in Memphis or Boulder or Fresno? Of course not, we’d be out to kick someone’s ***, and we would be right to do so.
So why is it that we counsel Israel to not fight? They are the only ally we have in the region, they are surrounded by enemies whose stated goal is the destruction of Israel, and yet, we tell them NOT to fight?
Let’s try something new, because, we’ve done this for well over twenty years and it clearly isn’t effective. Let’s counsel *** kicking as foreign policy. When terrorists come and blow up busses, find out where they came from, and kick their asses. When rockets fly into suburban neighborhoods, bomb those who launched them back to the stone age.
Israel is used to being reviled and under the constant threat of terrorism, how friggin’ horrid is that?
Israel has fought several wars with their neighboring countries, and they have won, decisively, in each engagement. So, lets not counsel the Israelis to bear this burden of terrorism any longer. In his speech September 20th, 2001 President Bush said:
Our enemy is a radical network of terrorists, and every government that supports them. and: Every nation, in every region, now has a decision to make. Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists. From this day forward, any nation that continues to harbor or support terrorism will be regarded by the United States as a hostile regime. I submit that Israel made it’s choice in this regard long ago, and we haven’t backed them up. The House of Saud has also made it’s choice, but, because of this insane need we have to be seen as “Nice” to everyone, and the fact that our environmentalists don’t want us drilling our own oil, we coddle the Saudis and ignore the insane hatred of Jews, Christians and the west in general taught in the madrassas and mosques they fund.
Alcoholics Anonymous defines insanity as doing the same thing, over and over and expecting a different result. That is exactly what we demand from Israel, in forcing them to negotiate with those who fund and support the very terrorists we are supposed to be fighting.

 

[newGuy12]

I would tend to agree completely.

 

[Tez3]

Well you can hardly say every government supports them can you when we have a list of the dead that says we don't.

 

[Blotan Hunka]

I agree..what "amuses" me is how all the Arab countries are up in arms over the "Palestinian Problem" but none of them are willing to carve out a chunk of their country for them, or seem to be offering any significant ideas of their own. Its about eliminating the Jews and NOT about "liberating the Palestinians". Anybody who believes otherwise is kidding themselves.

 

[Marginal]

The House of Saud has also made it’s choice, but, because of this insane need we have to be seen as “Nice” to everyone, and the fact that our environmentalists don’t want us drilling our own oil, we coddle the Saudis and ignore the insane hatred of Jews, Christians and the west in general taught in the madrassas and mosques they fund.
Alcoholics Anonymous defines insanity as doing the same thing, over and over and expecting a different result. That is exactly what we demand from Israel, in forcing them to negotiate with those who fund and support the very terrorists we are supposed to be fighting.

Drilling our own oil amounts to nothing relative to how much we use. That's why environmentalists, sportsmen etc don't see much merit in the "need" to drill in wildlife preserves etc.

All this for what is in reality a disorganized rabble that has little interest in actually mounting an effective assault in the US makes such posturing in reality just as pointless as the peace talks.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I agree..what "amuses" me is how all the Arab countries are up in arms over the "Palestinian Problem" but none of them are willing to carve out a chunk of their country for them, or seem to be offering any significant ideas of their own. Its about eliminating the Jews and NOT about "liberating the Palestinians". Anybody who believes otherwise is kidding themselves.

Not wanting to get deep into this and not making a political statement just a historical one, I try to avoid the study if at all possible

But Palestine was a country prior to the reformation of Israel. Basically the Palestinians agree to let the Israelis live there not knowing the Israelis were told it would be their country and the Israelis not knowing the Palestinians had no idea that is what was going to happen.

There is a lot of history with this and much of the trouble that is there now is due to the old British Empire.

 

[Blotan Hunka]

True, but Im referring to the outrage of the "Arab World". Not the Palestinians. To suggest that the Israelis should just up and move at the best or be "wiped out" at the worst...they didnt invade, they were placed there.

 

[Xue Sheng]

True, but Im referring to the outrage of the "Arab World". Not the Palestinians. To suggest that the Israelis should just up and move at the best or be "wiped out" at the worst...they didnt invade, they were placed there.

True they didn't invade and there is apparently no compromise to be had.

There is a whole lot of history to this conflict and to be honest neither the Palestinians nor the Arabs were the first to start using terror tactics there. But regardless, it is sad that there is likely not ever going to be a lasting peace there

 

[Blotan Hunka]

True they didn't invade and there is apparently no compromise to be had.

There is a whole lot of history to this conflict and to be honest neither the Palestinians nor the Arabs were the first to start using terror tactics there. But regardless, it is sad that there is likely not ever going to be a lasting peace there

I dont know about that. Violence seemed to kick off in the 1930's during the Arab Revolts.

Jewish immigration and land purchases met with increasing resistance from the Arab inhabitants of Palestine, who started several violent insurrections against the Jews and against British rule in the 1920s and 1930s. During the Great Revolt of 1936-1939 the followers of the radical Mufti of Jerusalem Haj Amin al-Husseini (a Nazi collaborator who later fled the Nurnberg Tribunal) not only killed hundreds of Jews, but an even larger number of Palestinian Arabs from competing groups. The Zionists in Palestine (called the Yishuv) established self-defense organizations like the Haganah and the (more radical) Irgun. The latter carried out reprisal attacks on Arabs from 1936 on. Under Arab pressure the British severely limited Jewish immigration to Palestine, after proposals to divide the area had been rejected by the Palestinian Arabs in 1937. Jewish refugees from countries controlled by Nazi Germany now had no place to flee to, since nearly all other countries refused to let them in. In response Jewish organizations organized illegal immigration (Aliya Beth), the Zionist leadership in 1942 demanded an independent state in Palestine to gain control of immigration (the Biltmore conference), and the Irgun committed assaults on British institutions in Palestine.

 

[Blotan Hunka]

At the root of the current problem is the debate over the Right of Palestinian return.

In the years and decades after the founding of Israel the Jewish minorities in all Arab countries fled or were expelled (approximately 900,000), most of whom went to Israel, the US and France. These Jewish refugees all were relocated in their new home countries. In contrast, the Arab countries refused to permanently house the Palestinian Arab refugees, because they - as well as most of the refugees themselves - maintained that they had the right to return to Israel. About a million Palestinian refugees still live in refugee camps in miserable circumstances. Israel rejected the Palestinian 'right of return' as it would lead to an Arab majority in Israel, and said that the Arab states were responsible for the Palestinian refugees. Many Palestinian groups, including Fatah, have admitted that granting the right of return would mean the end of Israel as a Jewish state. The question of the Palestinian right of return is the first mayor obstacle for solving the Arab-Israeli conflict.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I dont know about that. Violence seemed to kick off in the 1930's during the Arab Revolts.

I am already WAY too far into this discussion in the study for me and I do not have the book with me that is about the history of terrorism that talks about the region. And I did say "terrorism" meaning the use of terrorism by commiting an act of terrorism not "violent act" or "violence"

If you like as soon as I get the chance I will see if I can scan the chapter in that talks about the history of the region and terrorism and PM it to you. If that does not work I would be happy to send you the title.

Basically my point was that there was an existing country there, “Palestine” prior to the reformation of Israel and the people that were there were not told by the ones in control of that region at the time (British Empire) that there was going to be a new country that was going to require they give up most of their country. That is all

 

[Blotan Hunka]

True, but if you go farther back the Israelites were there before the Romans kicked them out. Like the Indians were here (in the US) before the settlers displaced them. I think there comes a point where you have to deal with what you have on the ground NOW. Right now we have a founded nation in place. Expecting them to leave, wipe them out or allow Palestinian return (which would wipe them out in a different fashion) isnt reasonable. What is the solution? Im no statesman, but dealing with the refuge camps is a start. I do find it hypocritical that the Arab nations are all twisted about the camps but wont allow them into their own countries to provide them with relief. The only solution they seem to want is to let them back into Israel, thereby eliminating Israel. Which looks to be the REAL goal here.

 

[CoryKS]

This is the song that never ends...

Good article, Don. Annapolis is pointless, just as every attempt that has gone before was pointless.

 

[CoryKS]

The only solution they seem to want is to let them back into Israel, thereby eliminating Israel. Which looks to be the REAL goal here.

Ding! Ding! Ding! Give that man a prize!

 

[newGuy12]

I do find it hypocritical that the Arab nations are all twisted about the camps but wont allow them into their own countries to provide them with relief. The only solution they seem to want is to let them back into Israel, thereby eliminating Israel. Which looks to be the REAL goal here.

Its really no more complicated that this. This is the essence of the problem.

 

[CoryKS]

What Israel should do is offer the Arabs a deal: for each percentage of the disputed land Israel hands over to the "Palestinians", Syria and Jordan must both provide the same measurement of contiguous land. Let the world see just how dedicated to the plight of their Palestinians brothers and sisters they really are. I'm guessing "not at all".

 

[Big Don]

This is the song that never ends...

Good article, Don. Annapolis is pointless, just as every attempt that has gone before was pointless.

Thank you, Cory.

 

[Big Don]

There are more Jews in the US than there are in Israel. Israel is a democracy in which live a lot of Jews, however, calling it a Jewish state, is innacurate. While, yes, there are a lot of Jews in Israel there are also Muslims and Christians and people from other faiths as well. Israel is not ruled by Jewish law, but, rather by Israeli law. There are and have been Arab members of the Knesset. Were Israel solely a Jewish state, that would not have been allowed...

 

[5-0 Kenpo]

True, but if you go farther back the Israelites were there before the Romans kicked them out. Like the Indians were here (in the US) before the settlers displaced them. I think there comes a point where you have to deal with what you have on the ground NOW. Right now we have a founded nation in place. Expecting them to leave, wipe them out or allow Palestinian return (which would wipe them out in a different fashion) isnt reasonable. What is the solution? Im no statesman, but dealing with the refuge camps is a start. I do find it hypocritical that the Arab nations are all twisted about the camps but wont allow them into their own countries to provide them with relief. The only solution they seem to want is to let them back into Israel, thereby eliminating Israel. Which looks to be the REAL goal here.

In this thread, I am going to try to limit the topic to the Israeli / Palestinian Conflict, not that of the wider Arab World, if possible.

Your argument has some merit. We could go back to the origin of the world and find out who was there first, but it does nothing to solve the problem in the here and now.

However, one should understand that for the displaced Palistinians, their war of only 50-60 years ago never ended. In their eyes, it could be seen that they lost the major military campaign, and began their underground movement. Although not to the same extent, one could say that the French Underground during WW2 should have given up because Germany overcame and occupied the legitimate government, so they should just let Germany win. The things that they did to help secure their freedom were violence and terrorism.

Its also like saying that since African-Americans were enslaved, that they should never fight for their freedom, becuase that was the there and then.

Now, typically I am on the side of Israel. I think they have been getting the shaft for years. They were not the ones who decided to settle themselves in that area. They were placed there. But one should have a bit of sympathy for the Palestinians, as they were simply thrown out of their country, and some that were thrown out are still alive and suffering because of it.

P.S.: Not that that excuses violence against civilians.

 

[renee]

True, but Im referring to the outrage of the "Arab World". Not the Palestinians. To suggest that the Israelis should just up and move at the best or be "wiped out" at the worst...they didnt invade, they were placed there.

Umm they most certainly did invade. They expanded there borders into the West Bank and parts of Syria. They also continuously break law and also take no regard for innocent life. Unless you figure if your Palestinian you're not innocent.


I'm no fan of terrorists or any extremists but Israel is not without blame, and most definitely Britain is not without blame either.

And we don't play hardball with Saudi not because we don't want to drill at home but because our President and his family have for decades done private dealings with them in the oil business. The Prince and the aristocrats in Americans society repeatedly rub each other's backs.