am i over looking judo for real self defence?

[Dirty Dog]

Anthony Pettis is 3rd Dan in tae kwon do. Hardly a grandmaster, but still-it must have cost him a good $10000 to get there....

Now you know that's not true. It certainly didn't cost me anywhere near that much.

If there are no "Grandmasters" competing, I suspect it has more to do with the nebulous definition of the term, the fact that many (if not most) system that use the title award it based more on a lifetime of contribution to the art than on a specific test (althought tests may well be a part of it) and the fact that if they're competing in the ring, the rank they're looking for is in the ring, not the specific individual arts they may use.

 

[elder999]

Now you know that's not true. It certainly didn't cost me anywhere near that much.

If there are no "Grandmasters" competing, I suspect it has more to do with the nebulous definition of the term, the fact that many (if not most) system that use the title award it based more on a lifetime of contribution to the art than on a specific test (althought tests may well be a part of it) and the fact that if they're competing in the ring, the rank they're looking for is in the ring, not the specific individual arts they may use.

I don't know that it's not true at all-back in the 90's, it probably cost about $2500 to get to 1st Dan, so I extrapolated a little...but I was being facetious.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I don't know that it's not true at all-back in the 90's, it probably cost about $2500 to get to 1st Dan, so I extrapolated a little...but I was being facetious.

Perhaps at some schools. There are certainly places (from lots of styles) with outrageous prices. But I don't think it's ever been the norm for any style.
Are you saying $10,000 total, including all the monthly fees, or $10,000 in belt testing fees, or $10,000 for just the three Dan gradings?

If you're saying $10,000 for training from day 1 through 3rd Dan, then that's maybe plausible. In my area, commercial schools run $100-$150 a month, but I couldn't say with any authority how long it takes to reach 1st Dan. If we assume a KKW school, and a really fast 1 year to 1st dan, then it would be 2 years to 2nd (KKW time in grade is 1 year 1st to 2nd, 2 years 2nd to 3rd) and 4 years to 3rd Dan. At $100 a month, that would be $4800 to 3rd Dan. That would leave $5200 in belt fees. A bit of a stretch...

Our school is $40 a month. It takes an average of 8 years to reach first Dan. That's still well short of $10,000, but we're not a commercial school.

 

[Laplace_demon]

Now you know that's not true. It certainly didn't cost me anywhere near that much.

If there are no "Grandmasters" competing, I suspect it has more to do with the nebulous definition of the term, the fact that many (if not most) system that use the title award it based more on a lifetime of contribution to the art than on a specific test (althought tests may well be a part of it) and the fact that if they're competing in the ring, the rank they're looking for is in the ring, not the specific individual arts they may use.

Semantics aside, you won't even find 3rd Dans competing in MMA. Pettis is an exception and he's equally good at BJJ. 1993 and Royce Gracie included a handful competitors out of the worlds population. Only a fool would draw conclusions from that. But people do, and think TKD guys can't compete with a grappler in reality.

I know bona fide Karate masters who don't even know who Lyoto Machida is. The same with TKD and Pettis.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The odds favour a grappler, ...

IMO, the anti-striking is possible but the anti-grappling is not. When your opponent gets you into a "clinch", the striking game is over and the grappling game start. There are so many different ways to obtain a valid "clinch" such as:

- wrist control,
- arm wrap,
- head lock,
- under hook,
- over hook,
- bear hug,
- waist wrap,
- single leg,
- double legs.
- ...

All you need is just an "arm parry, comb hair", you are in. If you treat your arms as the octopus 's arms and give up your striking, to obtain a "clinch" is not hard to do.

 

[Laplace_demon]

Pettis is from ATA - the biggest MCdojo manufactorers in the world. It's in spite of, not because of TKD that he made it.

 

[Laplace_demon]

IMO, the anti-striking is possible but the anti-grappling is not. When your opponent gets you into a "clinch", the striking game is over and the grappling game start. There are so many different ways to obtain a valid "clinch" such as:

- wrist control,
- arm wrap,
- head lock,
- under hook,
- over hook,
- bear hug,
- waist wrap,
- single leg,
- double legs.
- ...

All you need is just an "arm parry, comb hair", you are in. If you treat your arms as the octopus 's arms and give up your striking, to obtain a "clinch" is not hard to do.

A striker with no training in grappling, could still grapple standing and hold his own. It's on the ground the problem starts.

 

[elder999]

If you're saying $10,000 for training from day 1 through 3rd Dan, then that's maybe plausible. l.

That's exactly what I was saying-I wasn't even considering ranking fees.....

 

[ballen0351]

Now you know that's not true. It certainly didn't cost me anywhere near that much.

If there are no "Grandmasters" competing, I suspect it has more to do with the nebulous definition of the term, the fact that many (if not most) system that use the title award it based more on a lifetime of contribution to the art than on a specific test (althought tests may well be a part of it) and the fact that if they're competing in the ring, the rank they're looking for is in the ring, not the specific individual arts they may use.

Not to mention the age factor. Unless there are some 24 year old grand masters running around the cage stuff is a young man's game

 

[drop bear]

Perhaps at some schools. There are certainly places (from lots of styles) with outrageous prices. But I don't think it's ever been the norm for any style.
Are you saying $10,000 total, including all the monthly fees, or $10,000 in belt testing fees, or $10,000 for just the three Dan gradings?

If you're saying $10,000 for training from day 1 through 3rd Dan, then that's maybe plausible. In my area, commercial schools run $100-$150 a month, but I couldn't say with any authority how long it takes to reach 1st Dan. If we assume a KKW school, and a really fast 1 year to 1st dan, then it would be 2 years to 2nd (KKW time in grade is 1 year 1st to 2nd, 2 years 2nd to 3rd) and 4 years to 3rd Dan. At $100 a month, that would be $4800 to 3rd Dan. That would leave $5200 in belt fees. A bit of a stretch...

Our school is $40 a month. It takes an average of 8 years to reach first Dan. That's still well short of $10,000, but we're not a commercial school.

it would generally cost more than that in training fees,supplements,travel,equipment,rehab and such to be a pro fighter.

if we are comparing the cost of the two.

 

[Laplace_demon]

Not to mention the age factor. Unless there are some 24 year old grand masters running around the cage stuff is a young man's game

If you start training at age 5 or 10 it's not impossible in your mid 20s to have at least 4th Dan. Even if I were to grant your premise, it's still very few that have ever tried it. BJJ masters however have and the rules are adapted to their art (one of the gracies initiated the UFC). That's why everybody needs BJJ, because it's not no holds barred, and the rules in place favour the wrestlers.

 

[drop bear]

A striker with no training in grappling, could still grapple standing and hold his own. It's on the ground the problem starts.

why would you suggest that?

 

[drop bear]

Ok tkd and fight sports.

Olympic Taekwondo Centre - Elite Martial Arts Melbourne

tkd masters training sports fighting champions.

 

[Laplace_demon]

why would you suggest that?

Because wrestling/grappling is closely related to striking abilities. If your exceptional at one you will also excel in the other, at least standing.

I am quite good at grappling standing and have had no training. I am a very fast striker.

 

[drop bear]

Because wrestling/grappling is closely related to striking abilities. If your exceptional at one you will also excel in the other, at least standing.

I am quite good at grappling standing and have had no training. I am a very fast striker.

who are you comparing this to. Have you for example won a wrestling competition?

 

[Dirty Dog]

If you start training at age 5 or 10 it's not impossible in your mid 20s to have at least 4th Dan. Even if I were to grant your premise, it's still very few that have ever tried it. BJJ masters however have and the rules are adapted to their art (one of the gracies initiated the UFC). That's why everybody needs BJJ, because it's not no holds barred, and the rules in place favour the wrestlers.

Can you provide a reference for any TKD system that uses the title "Grandmaster" for a 4th Dan? I've been around a while... and although I certainly am not intimately familiar with the traditions in every system of TKD (let alone every MA system...) I am unaware of any system of any sort that titles a 4th Dan as "Grandmaster".

 

[Dirty Dog]

it would generally cost more than that in training fees,supplements,travel,equipment,rehab and such to be a pro fighter.

if we are comparing the cost of the two.

We were not comparing anything. Maybe you should read the thread?

 

[drop bear]

Kelly seif.
XFC Gym - Our Staff

tkd master sports fighting trainer.

if people remember an enforcer i worked with called clay. that is his trainer.

 

[Tez3]

Because wrestling/grappling is closely related to striking abilities. If your exceptional at one you will also excel in the other, at least standing.

I am quite good at grappling standing and have had no training. I am a very fast striker.

There is always someone faster and mostly in the case of being attacked always someone dirtier, meaner and just plain nastier so it pays to have as many weapons in you armoury as you can.
Your personal dislike of the UFC and MMA has nothing to do with anything.

 

[Laplace_demon]

who are you comparing this to. Have you for example won a wrestling competition?

I've grappled a wrestler from a freestyle or Greco Roman background. He was around my weight class and actively training. He couldn't put me on my back. We were around 17-18 years old. I havent' tried it as an adult

Then theres wrestling on the ground, as well as submission wrestling of which I have no clue how I would do. I don't know anything about submissions. That's why I specifically said as long it's standing.