Am I missing historical research?

[Juany118]

Okay the other thread made me consider this. I am very interested in the history of the Martial Arts I study. One of the arts I student is Kali. In FMA we have documentaries like The Bladed Hand: The Global Impact of the Filipino Martial Arts (2012) - IMDb, books like Filipino Martial Culture and Cebuano Eskrima just to name a few. Am I missing books and documentaries that do similar scholarship, that try to look past the modern masters of today and at the deeper history? If I am not why is the scholarship on the topic in question so lacking?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Okay the other thread made me consider this. I am very interested in the history of the Martial Arts I study. One of the arts I student is Kali. In FMA we have documentaries like The Bladed Hand: The Global Impact of the Filipino Martial Arts (2012) - IMDb, books like Filipino Martial Culture and Cebuano Eskrima just to name a few. Am I missing books and documentaries that do similar scholarship, that try to look past the modern masters of today and at the deeper history? If I am not why is the scholarship on the topic in question so lacking?

I suspect there's a common issue in a lot of martial arts. I'll use NGA as an example.

We know who the founder was (Morita Shodo), the approximate time the art was founded (I'd have to look in my notes for that, but early 1940's I think), and the lineage to the current head of the art (Richard Bowe trained under Morita for years until his death, kept in touch with his successor until he retired). Beyond that, we have bits and pieces. Who did Morita train with in Daito-ryu? We think it was Kotaro Yoshida. We have no documentation of that, and since the passing of Nara Tominosuke (the second head of the association, and Morita's step-son), we have no real detail. Mr. Bowe wasn't very focused on history when he trained (neither was I), so he didn't really ask a lot of those questions. He was focused on the efficacy of the art. Official records for Daito-ryu appear to have been fragmented when lineages split up. And apparently it wasn't uncommon to use different names for some things around that time in Japan, so if Morita is in the records, he might not be under that name. And apparently some instructors taught without entering folks in the Daito-ryu rolls.

Put all of that together, and even with a fairly recent art, there's a disconnect. Record keeping was not the same in the past. Some styles kept no records (I'd be surprised if that weren't at least partly true of FMA). Written records were passed along from one person to the next, and could be lost if someone died without passing theirs along, if there was a fire, etc.

In some cases, historical research in MA has more in common with archaeology.

 

[Juany118]

I suspect there's a common issue in a lot of martial arts. I'll use NGA as an example.

We know who the founder was (Morita Shodo), the approximate time the art was founded (I'd have to look in my notes for that, but early 1940's I think), and the lineage to the current head of the art (Richard Bowe trained under Morita for years until his death, kept in touch with his successor until he retired). Beyond that, we have bits and pieces. Who did Morita train with in Daito-ryu? We think it was Kotaro Yoshida. We have no documentation of that, and since the passing of Nara Tominosuke (the second head of the association, and Morita's step-son), we have no real detail. Mr. Bowe wasn't very focused on history when he trained (neither was I), so he didn't really ask a lot of those questions. He was focused on the efficacy of the art. Official records for Daito-ryu appear to have been fragmented when lineages split up. And apparently it wasn't uncommon to use different names for some things around that time in Japan, so if Morita is in the records, he might not be under that name. And apparently some instructors taught without entering folks in the Daito-ryu rolls.

Put all of that together, and even with a fairly recent art, there's a disconnect. Record keeping was not the same in the past. Some styles kept no records (I'd be surprised if that weren't at least partly true of FMA). Written records were passed along from one person to the next, and could be lost if someone died without passing theirs along, if there was a fire, etc.

In some cases, historical research in MA has more in common with archaeology.

Oh FMA had NO record keeping until the 20th Century. It was all hands on/oral history. Thing is scholars have started to try and piece things together using multiple source, colonial history, etc. As an example here, the good stuff starts at about 1:25

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Oh FMA had NO record keeping until the 20th Century. It was all hands on/oral history. Thing is scholars have started to try and piece things together using multiple source, colonial history, etc. As an example here, the good stuff starts at about 1:25

That's the point. Folks are working on it, but it takes a lot of work. Sources aren't as accessible as, for instance, researching medieval European culture. So, only those very dedicated to the pursuit of that history are likely to do any level of research at all. And a small number of them will be capable of serious academic-level research on the topic.

 

[ShortBridge]

It may not be quite what you are looking for, but I HIGHLY recommend the short documentary "Needle Through Brick".

It's sort of Buena Vista Social Club (also highly recommend) for TCMA. It will give you some context and perspective. It may be available on-line for free at this point, but it's worth paying for, if not.

 

[Juany118]

That's the point. Folks are working on it, but it takes a lot of work. Sources aren't as accessible as, for instance, researching medieval European culture. So, only those very dedicated to the pursuit of that history are likely to do any level of research at all. And a small number of them will be capable of serious academic-level research on the topic.

Oh I get that people are working on it in FMA but I don't see the same when it comes to CMAs. Half of my point is related to Short's response, am I missing something? If so where is it?

 

[ShortBridge]

I'm not sure that I understand. If I missed your point, let me know. There are certainly people who research TCMA. It's not peer-reviewed, university research.

Check out the documentary. If nothing else, you will enjoy it.

 

[Juany118]

I'm not sure that I understand. If I missed your point, let me know. There are certainly people who research TCMA. It's not peer-reviewed, university research.

Check out the documentary. If nothing else, you will enjoy it.

Oh I am going to check it out, you were meeting one of my requests, answer whether I missed something. Also I am not necessarily talking peer reviewed. That said I want to see people involved that are skilled/trained in research, interviewing specialists in relevant fields outside the art etc. most importantly, if it is trying to go deep, those not afraid to PO people who may be invested in myth or dogma.

I'll give two examples of the later. The video I linked says something that would border on heresy to my Guro and many others who study FMA. "There is no mother art, it is impossible." When you think of Filipino History, the tribal warfare later compounded by religious rivalry between Christian and Muslim, the later still at work today, not to mention the issues of geography (over 7000 islands) it would be all but impossible for a "mother art" to spread throughout the Island Chain.

Then we have something @gpseymour can likely relate to well, a Japanese art, Daito-ryu aikijujutsu. Now the tale is that the art is around 900 years old, that is the tale my Aikido Sensei told us. However @Chris Parker I believe was good enough to correct that myth when I first joined the forums because he has done the scholarship, followed the evidence and concluded the legend doesn't meet muster.