AKKI: Shaping the Future of Kenpo?

[Brian Jones]

Kenpo is the most effective system I have been exposed to. Im not disputing that. What I have a problem with basically is all the doe-eyed adornment of some kenpo seniors, in this case Mr. Mill's, by naive students that think mpeg video clips offer a direct correlation to that seniors ability. Demonstration clips, which the ones in question are, do not represent anything more then some instructors' ability to beat up his students. Would the "mind boggeling" speed be nearly as impressive if all parties had gear on, and the UKE was not allowing the techniques to happen? What about all the spontaneity everyone talks about. Demonstration videos offer no spontaneity, no real gauge of any persons ability other then their knowledge of the movements of a technique.

Just my opinion,
Gary C.

You are right, demonstration vidoe offers no spontaneity. I am not even arguing if what is demonstrated is "anything special" (Doc's words). That's up to teh viewer and Mr. Mills doesn't need the likes of me to defend him. What I was saying is if we take this logic too far then why put any video out t here? Its never going to be perfect. Or we can just appreiciate a clip for what it is. By the way there is a CD of Mr. Mills "House of Pain Vol. 3" (I think) that does what you ask. Paul Mills doing the techniques on Ukes who know what is coming, and are permitted to resist the technique. Perhaps someone might have a clip of this they could put up or a link? It might provide ofr an interesting discussion.

Brian Jones

 

[MHeeler]

The pseudo-scientific descriptions of the techniques are typical of what one hears from those who believe that what they are doing is scientific despite their lack of training in the subject:

"Some important physical quantities related to striking are momentum (p = mv), and kinetic energy (KE = 1/2 mv^2). The physics equations describing these quantities depend on mass and velocity, not on the amount of distance traveled in executing the strike. In this demonstration, the utilization of proper principles regarding speed and body alignment, not travel, gives tremendous power to the strike."

I'll agree that the last sentence is perhaps a misapplication of the physics equations in question. However, when taken separately, both the descriptions of the physics involved and the description of the physical technique are accurate. Furthermore, to my knowledge, the AKKI has never claimed to be "scientific" in any way. They do claim to take a logical and rational approach to self-defense and motion; this is subjective, to be sure, as is the entire realm of martial arts.

Focusing on amount of distance omits the fact that velocity is exactly rate of change of distance (displacement), i.e. p=mdx/dt, but leaving that aside, as well as the fact that p depends on velocity but K.E. depends on speed, if we assume that the strike is initially started from a previously stationary hand (null velocity, null acceleration), then to get more speed one needs more distance through which to accelerate. For a given velocity it's all well and good to say that p=mv, but to get a reasonable speed requires traveling through a certain distance. It seems to me that the real question here is how rapidly can one accelerate through the distance from the weapon to its target, that is, p=m*int(a(t)) is likely the best way to analyze it. Under the reasonable simplifying assumption of constant acceleration and null initial conditions, v=at and d=at^2/2 so the quantities are essentially interchangeable. After a given distance, you have a certain speed, and a certain speed corresponds to a given distance (until speed reaches a maximum or starts to decrease, if it does). Of course, until you can argue whether or not the collision is inelastic and how much energy is transferred to internal energy rather than energy of motion, it doesn't mean much.

We both agree that v=dx/dt. (In any case, whether we agree or not, this is a mathematical fact. :ultracool ) However, when you begin speaking about acceleration, you're changing the nature of the argument. The AKKI statement did not address the acceleration of the striking hand. It should have, in my opinion, but that's moot.

Muscular contraction cannot be adequately described using the physics model of kinematics. There is a small component of acceleration at the beginning of a contraction. However, this acceleration takes place during the initial micro- or nanoseconds of the muscle action. The rate of muscular velocity is entirely dependent upon a person's genetics, muscular phenotype, and level of muscular training. I suppose we could discuss neuromuscular physiology, muscle fiber biochemistry, and motor unit recruitment, but that would be far beyond the scope of this thread (probably the entire forum). In any case, maximum velocity is achieved at the very initiation of muscular contraction. Once full contraction/movement begins, no further velocity is achieved or possible. This is why it is possible to strike with maximum velocity while moving very short distances.

You're right about the nature of the collision. I don't think physics can accurately describe the nature of flesh on flesh impact. There are probably far too many variables at play. As I said earlier, almost the entire realm of martial arts is subjective.

"Using these principles, even the small mass of a finger whip has enormous destructive power. This is the same principle that allows the tip of a bullwhip to be accelerated so that the speed of the tip exceeds the speed of sound."

The crack of a whip comes from the whip forming a circular loop. Apparently this person can twist his forearm into a full circle.

This is just more pseudo-science used to trick the unwary. It's no different than claiming that you're moving people with your ki, to my way of thinking. It's a sales gimmick that is meant to impress people who don't know better than to believe it.

I doubt the person who wrote the AKKI statement was even aware of this particular description of whip physics. I believe the analogy is making reference to the notion of progressive acceleration (each successive part of the chain accelerates independently, thereby increasing the total acceleration exponentially). From what I understood of the abstract you linked and your subsequent discussion, the analogy is still appropriate. While the "loop" may not be present, progressive acceleration is.

Once again, I wouldn't call this "pseudo-science." It may be a misapplication of scientific principles; at the least it's an attempt to logically apply those principles to describe human movement. From my personal experience, these analogies have only been used to spark thought and understanding. That's a far cry from attempts to "trick the unwary." I agree that the existence of many people with those ulterior motives justifies a skeptical approach, but assuming those motives exist is far from objective. It depends on one's perspective, I guess.

MH

 

[kenposikh]

I would love to be wrong on this issue. Could one really walk into an LTKKA camp without being a member of the LTKKA and be part of the experience?

I don't know if you're willing to, but would you share some of the highlights of this camp?

Hi Consider yourself wrong,

I was at the LTKKA camp in June 2005 I am not a member of LTKKA and was welcomed with open arms made to feel like one of the family. HAd a great time.

Amrik

 

[KenpoEMT]

Right on.

So, was it good? What was your favorite session?

 

[kenposikh]

Yes it was excellent I thoroughly enjoyed the whole of my time while I was there. Sessions I took part in were excellent, I had a session with Clyde which was very interesting as well as Mr Kevin Mills from the UK who is my instructor as well but he and Clyde always amaze me with their knowledge of Kenpo.

Frank Trejo was there and his session was brilliant as well as MAster Tatum's

The Dinner was good although I was dissapointed there was no Dance afterwards so I could strut my stufgf all over the floor

 

[Flying Crane]

I just watched the clips, and I think this is exactly the issue. In each case a stationary and wide-open opponent is struck by someone who has the time to assume a stance and get a good look at his opponent's position. I don't know what I'm supposed to learn from that. If one wants to know how to beat up a dummy, take Wing Chun.

The pseudo-scientific descriptions of the techniques are typical of what one hears from those who believe that what they are doing is scientific despite their lack of training in the subject:

"Some important physical quantities related to striking are momentum (p = mv), and kinetic energy (KE = 1/2 mv^2). The physics equations describing these quantities depend on mass and velocity, not on the amount of distance traveled in executing the strike. In this demonstration, the utilization of proper principles regarding speed and body alignment, not travel, gives tremendous power to the strike."

Focusing on amount of distance omits the fact that velocity is exactly rate of change of distance (displacement), i.e. p=mdx/dt, but leaving that aside, as well as the fact that p depends on velocity but K.E. depends on speed, if we assume that the strike is initially started from a previously stationary hand (null velocity, null acceleration), then to get more speed one needs more distance through which to accelerate. For a given velocity it's all well and good to say that p=mv, but to get a reasonable speed requires traveling through a certain distance. It seems to me that the real question here is how rapidly can one accelerate through the distance from the weapon to its target, that is, p=m*int(a(t)) is likely the best way to analyze it. Under the reasonable simplifying assumption of constant acceleration and null initial conditions, v=at and d=at^2/2 so the quantities are essentially interchangeable. After a given distance, you have a certain speed, and a certain speed corresponds to a given distance (until speed reaches a maximum or starts to decrease, if it does). Of course, until you can argue whether or not the collision is inelastic and how much energy is transferred to internal energy rather than energy of motion, it doesn't mean much.

"Using these principles, even the small mass of a finger whip has enormous destructive power. This is the same principle that allows the tip of a bullwhip to be accelerated so that the speed of the tip exceeds the speed of sound."

The crack of a whip comes from the whip forming a circular loop. Apparently this person can twist his forearm into a full circle.

This is just more pseudo-science used to trick the unwary. It's no different than claiming that you're moving people with your ki, to my way of thinking. It's a sales gimmick that is meant to impress people who don't know better than to believe it.

I think I gotta back up Arnisador on this one. I see this desire to apply physics to kenpo and I just don't think it can be done in the way people seem to want to do it. Sure, physics in a general way can help you understand how speed and torque and mass combine to create striking power, but this is all nebulous. I think every martial art understands this and makes use of these principals. It is only the Kenpo people that I have seen who try to actively write physics equations about it.

Combat is fluid and ever-changing. Thinking that physic can be directly and actively applied to a combat situation is misdirected. During a confrontation physics equations should be just about the last thing going thru your head.

An understanding of anatomy and physiology is more directly applicable to martial training. I bet all arts use this information all the time. But physics is different.

If someone can explain how physics is actively used in kenpo, in a combat situation, I would welcome the lesson. Examples that go beyond the abstract notions of torque and accelleration relating to power, are what I am asking for. thx.

 

[Doc]

I think I gotta back up Arnisador on this one. I see this desire to apply physics to kenpo and I just don't think it can be done in the way people seem to want to do it. Sure, physics in a general way can help you understand how speed and torque and mass combine to create striking power, but this is all nebulous. I think every martial art understands this and makes use of these principals. It is only the Kenpo people that I have seen who try to actively write physics equations about it.

Combat is fluid and ever-changing. Thinking that physic can be directly and actively applied to a combat situation is misdirected. During a confrontation physics equations should be just about the last thing going thru your head.

An understanding of anatomy and physiology is more directly applicable to martial training. I bet all arts use this information all the time. But physics is different.

If someone can explain how physics is actively used in kenpo, in a combat situation, I would welcome the lesson. Examples that go beyond the abstract notions of torque and accelleration relating to power, are what I am asking for. thx.

If you go back into some old threads on the subject, I've said this many, many times. General Newtonian Physics apply, but that's all. The human body is a living breathing entity of connected tissue, fluids, semi-vicous material and solids that changes configuration from one jiffy second to the next. The use of physic equations to explain dynamic biomechanical function is ludicrous. A great smoke screen that simply spotlights the lack of understanding of human physiology and biomechanical actions. The human body is not an animated 2x4. Can Kenpo be scientific? Absolutely, but it's biomechnics, NOT physics teachers need to understand and should be discussing. Physics formulas in dynamic human interaction? Keep putting up formulas while the knowledgeable teach proper and useful biomechanics to students. Yep, now I've said it again. Gimme a buck. ( I don't drink coffee).

 

[arnisador]

General Newtonian Physics apply, but that's all. The human body is a living breathing entity of connected tissue, fluids, semi-vicous material and solids that changes configuration from one jiffy second to the next. The use of physic equations to explain dynamic biomechanical function is ludicrous.

Yes, we're just not ready to tackle the whole problem. Look at membrane biphysics--trying to model the flow of nutrients across a single cellular membrane is already a challenging problem. Modeling the geometric shape of the human heart so as to understand surface conduction of the electrical charge that initiates the heart beat is a big challenge--just modeling its shape. I remember when a group at Duke U. came up with a detailed computer model of the lungs for the study of pollution's effects on people. It was a newsworthy item! All we can generally handle is isolated components, like electrical conduction along a short length of a nerve, or rough models, like the so-called "bathtub models" in pharmacology that model the body as having three components (blood, bone, tissue) that fill up with pharmaceuticals and empty them out like interconnected bathtubs.

Punch someone in the sternum? That's like punching something (fairly)solid, but how does it affect what's behind the sternum? Punch someone a few inches lower, in the abdomen? That's more like punching a water bag. Punch them in the ribs? Well, now you have solid (albeit flexible) bone strips spaced periodically...it's a lot of work to just set up the model and equations, before even asking specific questions!

I agree that physiology/anatomy/biomechanics are the key areas to consider. Much of the physics being used was developed for astronomy or ballistics (projectile motion). It's worth understanding some simple physics, yes, and that can often be relevant ("Why does the tip of the stick move so fast compared to the speed of the hand holding it?"). But most physics-based descriptions of techniques that I have read are either wrong or irrelevant.

That doesn't mean there aren't more and less effective ways to do things. It just means we have to look elsewhere for the answers.

 

[Flying Crane]

If you go back into some old threads on the subject, I've said this many, many times. General Newtonian Physics apply, but that's all. The human body is a living breathing entity of connected tissue, fluids, semi-vicous material and solids that changes configuration from one jiffy second to the next. The use of physic equations to explain dynamic biomechanical function is ludicrous. A great smoke screen that simply spotlights the lack of understanding of human physiology and biomechanical actions. The human body is not an animated 2x4. Can Kenpo be scientific? Absolutely, but it's biomechnics, NOT physics teachers need to understand and should be discussing. Physics formulas in dynamic human interaction? Keep putting up formulas while the knowledgeable teach proper and useful biomechanics to students. Yep, now I've said it again. Gimme a buck. ( I don't drink coffee).

Thank you for that. I'll send a buck, straight away!

 

[Doc]

Yes, we're just not ready to tackle the whole problem. Look at membrane biphysics--trying to model the flow of nutrients across a single cellular membrane is already a challenging problem. Modeling the geometric shape of the human heart so as to understand surface conduction of the electrical charge that initiates the heart beat is a big challenge--just modeling its shape. I remember when a group at Duke U. came up with a detailed computer model of the lungs for the study of pollution's effects on people. It was a newsworthy item! All we can generally handle is isolated components, like electrical conduction along a short length of a nerve, or rough models, like the so-called "bathtub models" in pharmacology that model the body as having three components (blood, bone, tissue) that fill up with pharmaceuticals and empty them out like interconnected bathtubs.

Punch someone in the sternum? That's like punching something (fairly)solid, but how does it affect what's behind the sternum? Punch someone a few inches lower, in the abdomen? That's more like punching a water bag. Punch them in the ribs? Well, now you have solid (albeit flexible) bone strips spaced periodically...it's a lot of work to just set up the model and equations, before even asking specific questions!

I agree that physiology/anatomy/biomechanics are the key areas to consider. Much of the physics being used was developed for astronomy or ballistics (projectile motion). It's worth understanding some simple physics, yes, and that can often be relevant ("Why does the tip of the stick move so fast compared to the speed of the hand holding it?"). But most physics-based descriptions of techniques that I have read are either wrong or irrelevant.

That doesn't mean there aren't more and less effective ways to do things. It just means we have to look elsewhere for the answers.

We are in total agreement sir. But watch someone try it again in the near future. Biomechanics anyone? (As I jump over the net, racket in hand)

 

[Doc]

Thank you for that. I'll send a buck, straight away!

or diet Pepsi...

 

[Carol]

or diet Pepsi...

Flavored or unflavored?

 

[Doc]

Flavored or unflavored?

Please, I'm the original "Pepsi Generation."

 

[masherdong]

lol, now just do the moonwalk with Michael Jackson and Alphonso Ribiero.

 

[Doc]

lol, now just do the moonwalk with Michael Jackson and Alphonso Ribiero.

You know, You run your mouth kinda reckless for a man that don't go heeled."

 

[NubreedKaliSilat]

I have personally trained with and know Mr. Mills. He is a very gifted martial artist and friend. He has idea's of what his people should train in and has developed many concepts and principles that fit into his Kenpo System. I trained in his basement in Wyoming and I shared many Filipino martial art concepts and principles with him. He is a man who can take something and make it work for him. He is always developing and moving forward in his skills and his understanding of many arts. His Black Belt student's bring alot of information into the table as well. I seen him go from having a few student's in his basement to having a fine Association of hundereds of practitioners. His skills also comes from owning and running one of the best bars in Evanston Wyoming and learning what works in that area of being a door man-bouncer! Anyone who has the responsibility to promote self defense has to keep up with the jones's or marty's LOL

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

I have personally trained with and know Mr. Mills. He is a very gifted martial artist and friend. He has idea's of what his people should train in and has developed many concepts and principles that fit into his Kenpo System. I trained in his basement in Wyoming and I shared many Filipino martial art concepts and principles with him. He is a man who can take something and make it work for him. He is always developing and moving forward in his skills and his understanding of many arts. His Black Belt student's bring alot of information into the table as well. I seen him go from having a few student's in his basement to having a fine Association of hundereds of practitioners. His skills also comes from owning and running one of the best bars in Evanston Wyoming and learning what works in that area of being a door man-bouncer! Anyone who has the responsibility to promote self defense has to keep up with the jones's or marty's LOL

Are you saying you taught him some FMA?

 

[masherdong]

You know, You run your mouth kinda reckless for a man that don't go heeled."

Ooops, did I say something offensive? If so, my apologies.

 

[Doc]

Ooops, did I say something offensive? If so, my apologies.

You made a reference to a very old Coca Cola commercial. I responded in-kind with a quote from a movie. Can you name the film?

 

[IWishToLearn]

Tombstone, 1993.