Aikido in action

[Taiji Rebel]

It amazes me how these threads deteriorate so rapidly - this is like being in the school playground once again.

Well, here is a big thank you for all those who did manage to stay on track when responding

There is nothing more to say here

 

[drop bear]

Obligatory kangaroo fight.

 

[O'Malley]

My theory is that the original source material that Takeda and then Ueshiba drew upon to create Daito Ryu and then Aikido was likely (at least in part) intended to help a swordsman protect himself until he could deploy his weapon.

Because neither Takeda nor Ueshiba nor their students were swordsmen (and it’s unclear how much real fighting they ever engaged in), the original purpose of the techniques was lost over the generations.

From what I know about aikido/DR history, it's only slightly true.

Takeda was a classical swordsman (trained in Ono-ha Itto-ryu among others) who also did sumo and had learned (probably from his maternal grandfather) a method of physical conditioning akin to what you see in some Chinese internal styles. He traveled across Japan to test his skills against others in somewhat friendly matches, armed and unarmed. At some point, he started teaching but, as swordsmanship was out of fashion and judo/jujutsu was more popular, he taught DR as a form of unarmed fighting. His student Ueshiba taught DR the same way (even after it had been rebranded as aikido) and both Takeda and Ueshiba (as well as other DR instructors) established a solid reputation as fighters. This has been confirmed by elite practitioners of arts that do fight, like Minoru Mochizuki, Kenshiro Abbe or Kenji Tomiki.

Where does the DR curriculum come from? Takeda probably 1) formalised his sumo techniques into kata; 2) incorporated stuff from other jujutsu schools that he encountered; and 3) made up stuff when he could, as he made people pay him per technique taught. And in any case, classical jujutsu was already influenced by sumo:

So why is there such a difference in fighting ability between Ueshiba (and others) and modern aikidoka? There are several reasons IMO.

1) the physical conditioning (aiki no jutsu) has been mostly lost. That thing presumably gave them such an edge that they could say "techniques are not important" or overcome people with a much better-put-together fighting system;
2) aikidoka don't spar with resistance anymore. There is evidence that (even beyond Takeda) old timers did sumo, judo and armed sparring after hours and regularly put their skills to the test. This has disappeared from aikido;
3) times have changed. Martial arts have evolved since Ueshiba's death but aikidoka generally reproduce what they have been taught and don't adapt to the new context. If Ueshiba were alive today, maybe he'd do some kind of MMA.

On this point, I've heard an interesting theory that says that fighting is a cultural behaviour and that people fight based on their knowledge of what fighting looks like. In Takeda and Ueshiba's times, many fighting styles such as boxing and karate were virtually unknown in mainland Japan and one may wonder whether their fights were not limited to sumo and judo-style stand-up grappling. Perhaps the aikido curriculum (which also included strikes) was more adapted to such a context. It makes me think of the "balayette", a common streetfighting tactic in France consisting in a "sucker foot sweep" that allows you to soccer kick the other guy, which may not be as common in other cultures (staged example below).

The above applies to the classical aikido curriculum (= the one you can find in Ueshiba's book "Budo" or in lines like Iwama or Yoshinkan). There are also other reasons, chiefly the fact that lots of aikidoka don't care about fighting and the changes made to the techniques for non-fighting (e.g. esthetic) reasons in mainstream aikido.

 

[O'Malley]

Obligatory kangaroo fight.

Do wrist locks work on kangaroos? We might have found our niche here.

 

[marvin8]

Your continued use of the Straw man accusation can be itself a straw man,

What do you mean by "continued use?" I used straw man two times with basis. How are they "itself a straw man?"

and the labeling of what folks post is not at all helpful, puts folks and the defensive, not conducive to conversation or discussion and gets nothing accomplished.....

Straw man and informal fallacies are "not conducive to conversation or discussion and gets nothing accomplished" which is the reason I brought them up.

 

[Xue Sheng]

What do you mean by "continued use?" I used straw man two times with basis. How are they "itself a straw man?"


Straw man and informal fallacies are "not conducive to conversation or discussion and gets nothing accomplished" which is the reason I brought them up.

Interesting.... have a nice day

 

[marvin8]

Interesting.... have a nice day

 

[Flying Crane]

For example, I've expressed the opinion before that Aikido/Aikijutsu* techniques primarily make sense in the context of a swordsman being able to avoid being surprise dogpiled by a group of unarmed attackers before he can draw his sword. I didn't come up with the theory, but it helps explain a lot of Aikido/Aikijutsu techniques and tactics.

Whose theory is this?

 

[GojuTommy]

It seems Aikido is not so popular here on the forum.

The guy in the video was not denigrating MMA in any way. He was just pointing out that it is a ritual fight with rules. My original post offered some old quotes in relation to some of his ideas. These ideas struck me as interesting, so I thought it would be of value to discuss them here.

The playfighting on the video holds no interest in my eyes. And all this talk of proving Aikido 'works' is not entirely relevant - I am not even certain what you guys mean when you use the term 'works'

Yet again, Marvin8 refuses to define what street fighting is to him, or give any examples, unless I answer his questions first. I have also previously asked him what kind of style he trains in, what his club does to prepare for their students for self-defense scenarios and more, but once again he refuses to answer.

The original video is talking about using your brain for a change. If all you have is a hammer, then everything becomes a nail

If all you wish to do in a 'so-called' street fighting (self-defense?) situation is fight, then martial arts which feature sparring and competition fighting will be perfect for you

he was denigrating MMA.
it doesn't matter if it's a ritual fight with rules.
he shows his ignorance of MMA several times throughout the video. people like him love to talk about 'banned techniques' but i am not aware of any of those techniques winning any of the early UFC events for people where there were almost no rules.
in his analogy he misses something very important...the deer that ritually fight each other for dominance still know how to defend themselves against wolves. it's the same for a people. just because people do 'ritual' fights doesn't mean they magically forget how to fight if they're ever randomly attacked.
most of the people here who deride aikido do so because most of it's practitioners are completely deluded.

 

[Taiji Rebel]

most of the people here who deride aikido do so because most of it's practitioners are completely deluded

Deluded in what sense?

Aikidoka are generally peaceful and harmonious. Not seeking a fight. Nothing to prove. Happy to attend their weekly practice sessions. Recognizing the health benefits to their mind and body. Not aiming to fight with other martial artists. Remember (other than Tomiki-style) there is no competition in Aikido - it is the way of peace

“Practice of the Art of Peace is an act of faith, a belief in the ultimate power of nonviolence” - Morihei Ueshiba

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Whose theory is this?

I got it from Christopher Hein.

YouTube Channel

Dojo Website

Bio:

Hein Sensei started training at Aikido of Fresno in 1998, passing his black belt test in 2001 and taking over operation of the school in 2011. A student of several martial arts, Hein Sensei found Aikido to be a martial art that truly inspired him. Hein Sensei has been exploring and developing his Aikido for nearing two decades. Sensei Hein has studied several martial arts systems including traditional martial arts like Aikido as well as modern sport martial arts. He has competed in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, Submissions Wrestling, MMA, HEMA and even a full contact stick fight with Southern California’s “Dog Brothers”. His focus is on the “Aiki” ability and practical martial skill tempered by good judgment and understanding.

 

[O'Malley]

I got it from Christopher Hein.

YouTube Channel

Dojo Website

Bio:

He seems like a cool guy, genuinely interested in finding a sense to his aikido. However, his theory is entirely his own, a modern reinvention of the classical toolkit. And the credit would be entirely his own if it worked.

Classically, Aikido and DR were never taught as a weapon retention method.

 

[GojuTommy]

Deluded in what sense?

Aikidoka are generally peaceful and harmonious. Not seeking a fight. Nothing to prove. Happy to attend their weekly practice sessions. Recognizing the health benefits to their mind and body. Not aiming to fight with other martial artists. Remember (other than Tomiki-style) there is no competition in Aikido - it is the way of peace

“Practice of the Art of Peace is an act of faith, a belief in the ultimate power of nonviolence” - Morihei Ueshiba

and yet they claim their martial art is useful for self defense and they have an endless litany of excuses to read off for when people fail to make it work.

 

[marvin8]

I may not agree with everything Hein says.

Hein's Approach to Aikido
Aug 8, 2020

In this video I will talk about the idea of trying to do Kotegaeshi off a jab (from boxing) and why you should stop trying to do that- Please. We'll talk about why people have this idea, why kotegaeshi wasn't built for this and is infact not a good choice. What options you would have in MMA, and why those options are much better than the idea of doing a kotegaeshi. We will also talk about when doing a kotegaeshi is a good idea, and why it's actually quite a natural and reasonable choice--- just not off a jab. Aikido techniques have their place, but trying to to a wrist twist off of a quick punch is not that place. In this video we will look at the techniques of MMA vs Aikido, the techniques of Boxing vs Aikido- and why when facing a jab, those choices are better if you want to counter attacker your attacker.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Aikidoka are generally peaceful and harmonious. Not seeking a fight. Nothing to prove.

Aikidoka are some of the most attention seeking martial artists on the internet.

 

[drop bear]

I may not agree with everything Hein says.

Hein's Approach to Aikido
Aug 8, 2020

In this video I will talk about the idea of trying to do Kotegaeshi off a jab (from boxing) and why you should stop trying to do that- Please. We'll talk about why people have this idea, why kotegaeshi wasn't built for this and is infact not a good choice. What options you would have in MMA, and why those options are much better than the idea of doing a kotegaeshi. We will also talk about when doing a kotegaeshi is a good idea, and why it's actually quite a natural and reasonable choice--- just not off a jab. Aikido techniques have their place, but trying to to a wrist twist off of a quick punch is not that place. In this video we will look at the techniques of MMA vs Aikido, the techniques of Boxing vs Aikido- and why when facing a jab, those choices are better if you want to counter attacker your attacker.

So the move that can't catch a punch. Is designed to take knives out of peoples hands?

I don't think the answer lies there. I think the answer is in achieving more depth in your fight IQ.

So we can look at things like BJJ, and a bit of wrestling. And they pull off ridiculously complicated moves. But they achieve that by setting up those moves three or four moves ahead. And basically trapping the guy in to a position he can't defend.

To get a wrist lock in that Aikido way they will need to create a system with the same sort of depth.

A d he isn't. His commentary on striking is correct but simplistic. Fine for self defence. Not fine for creating a situation where you can make them expose their arm.

 

[Taiji Rebel]

Aikidoka are some of the most attention seeking martial artists on the internet.

In what sense? And where exactly on the internet are you talking about?

 

[Taiji Rebel]

and yet they claim their martial art is useful for self defense and they have an endless litany of excuses to read off for when people fail to make it work.

It is the same for the majority of martial artists isn't it. How many of you guys have actually tested your art in reality? Competition fighting and sparring does not count by the way

 

[Oily Dragon]

In what sense? And where exactly on the internet are you talking about?

Everywhere, and all over.

I weigh these sorts of things in the numbers of videos online. There are a million Aikidoka videos defending about how great aikido is. Great.

There are, really, 0 Aikidoka on the planet that you can really turn to for inspiration, today. We lost Steven Seagal to the Russians.

 

[Taiji Rebel]

Everywhere, and all over.

I weigh these sorts of things in the numbers of videos online. There are a million Aikidoka videos defending about how great aikido is. Great.

There are, really, 0 Aikidoka on the planet that you can really turn to for inspiration, today. We lost Steven Seagal to the Russians.

Exactly the same could be said for any branch of the martial arts - pick MMA, or Karate, Jujutsu, Wing Chun, whatever you like. Start searching online for videos and arguments for why their style is the best, and you will see exactly the same thing. We seek the evidence which supports our own belief systems. And it is worth remembering the real purpose of all these videos on YT is to make money from repeated views. The controversial arguments and viewpoints get the most views, and make the most money - don't be so easily fooled by the internet, it does not the represent the reality of life.