Aikido by a high-ranking karateka and judoka - what do you think?

[O'Malley]

I've always liked Shoji Nishio, mostly because his moves were just beautiful to watch. For context, Nishio was a 4th dan in Kodokan judo (under Kyuzo Mifune) and 5th dan in Shindo Jinen-ryu karate (under Yasuhiro Konishi). He studied aikido under its founder, Morihei Ueshiba, eventually obtaining 8th dan, and later went on to obtain high ranks in iaido and jodo as well.

The interesting thing with Nishio was that, as an advanced practitioner of combative Japanese martial arts, he dared to adapt aikido techniques to his vision of martial effectiveness. This results in interesting technical quirks and setups revolving around strikes, which then end up in throws/pins.

As I'd like to incorporate some of his ideas into my own work, I'm not sure I could tell apart what would work and what wouldn't, and I could use some comments from experienced practitioners that know more about fighting than I do.

For example, in the video below, his explanations from 5:32 to 7:44 seem reasonable but I'd like to hear comments from other martial artists on whether it makes sense:

Likewise for the part from 15:09 to 16:27.

So, happy to hear your takes on this!

 

[drop bear]

And I assume just armdrag to two on one Russian is out of the question?

 

[O'Malley]

And I assume just armdrag to two on one Russian is out of the question?

Here's his student doing an armdrag along with two other variations (4:18):

 

[marvin8]

I've always liked Shoji Nishio, mostly because his moves were just beautiful to watch. For context, Nishio was a 4th dan in Kodokan judo (under Kyuzo Mifune) and 5th dan in Shindo Jinen-ryu karate (under Yasuhiro Konishi). He studied aikido under its founder, Morihei Ueshiba, eventually obtaining 8th dan, and later went on to obtain high ranks in iaido and jodo as well.

The interesting thing with Nishio was that, as an advanced practitioner of combative Japanese martial arts, he dared to adapt aikido techniques to his vision of martial effectiveness. This results in interesting technical quirks and setups revolving around strikes, which then end up in throws/pins.

As I'd like to incorporate some of his ideas into my own work, I'm not sure I could tell apart what would work and what wouldn't, and I could use some comments from experienced practitioners that know more about fighting than I do.

For example, in the video below, his explanations from 5:32 to 7:44 seem reasonable but I'd like to hear comments from other martial artists on whether it makes sense:

Likewise for the part from 15:09 to 16:27.

So, happy to hear your takes on this!

Yes. I've explained and gave examples of this concept before. Starting at 5:19 may make it clearer. At least in part, one can say he's talking about timing: go no sen, sen no sen and sen sen no sen. There is a difference between blocking, grabbing or hitting the lead arm then attacking and intercepting the opponent's movement. One can see this in kumite, MMA and boxing. “If my opponent doesn't move, I do not move. The instant he moves, I am already there.”

 

[O'Malley]

Yes, makes sense so far. My concern was whether the positions he's demonstrating would translate into a live environment: I would tend to say yes, but some of you may see things that I don't.

 

[Hot Lunch]

The interesting thing with Nishio was that, as an advanced practitioner of combative Japanese martial arts, he dared to adapt aikido techniques to his vision of martial effectiveness.

You mentioned that he was a 5th dan in Shindo Jinen-ryu. In which case, his decision to take up aikido shouldn't be a surprise at all. Of all styles of karate, the values of Shindo Jinen-ryu/Ryobu Kai (the most 道-iest style of karate-do) are the most closely aligned with aikido.

 

[O'Malley]

You mentioned that he was a 5th dan in Shindo Jinen-ryu. In which case, his decision to take up aikido shouldn't be a surprise at all. Of all styles of karate, the values of Shindo Jinen-ryu/Ryobu Kai (the most 道-iest style of karate-do) are the most closely aligned with aikido.

The connection runs even deeper: SJR founder Yasuhiro Konishi studied under Morihei Ueshiba, whose comments are credited for the creation of the three "Tai Sabaki" kata of SJR.

 

[windwalker099]

For example, in the video below, his explanations from 5:32 to 7:44 seem reasonable but I'd like to hear comments from other martial artists on whether it makes sense:

Whether it makes sense or not might depend one's interactions with those working on or with the same skill sets.
looks interesting, teacher is skilled

He talks about controlling the opponent's mind before physical contact.
This skill set is analogous to what is called "聽勁" (tīng jìn) in Taiji, developed through the practice of push hands.

What is demonstrated reminds me of Aiki-jitsu, based on the principles of "aiki" (harmonizing energy).
The demonstration didn't outline how they developed this which makes the practice work.

Worked with an aikidōka in Hawaii, found his practice quite interesting.

Some reading on "Aiki"

Clear power
He tried many things, but ultimately decided the techniques were ineffective against a fully resisting opponent
unless you possessed Takeda’s “Aiki.”


His father then said to Takeda Soukaku that he “would rather learn Aiki
than technique.” Sagawa’s father said at the time that “Takeda’s Aiki is simply
mysterious. That skill is definitely one that has been “absorbed” to his body and
maybe he is the only one who can do it.”

 

[O'Malley]

Whether it makes sense or not might depend one's interactions with those working on or with the same skill sets.
looks interesting, teacher is skilled

He talks about controlling the opponent's mind before physical contact.
This skill set is analogous to what is called "聽勁" (tīng jìn) in Taiji, developed through the practice of push hands.

What is demonstrated reminds me of Aiki-jitsu, based on the principles of "aiki" (harmonizing energy).
The demonstration didn't outline how they developed this which makes the practice work.

Worked with an aikidōka in Hawaii, found his practice quite interesting.

Some reading on "Aiki"

It's curious that you see the "aiki" body skills in Nishio, because I personally am not that sure. Obviously one would need to touch to be sure but, for example, he recommends breaking contact on shoulder/sleeve grabs while people with aiki skills typically do not break contact and use the opponent's grip to break their balance.

Is the aikidoka you mentioned part of Chris Li's group (Sangenkai - Chris is the author of the blog you linked)? Never touched hands with Chris but I've felt his teacher, as well as other Sangenkai members and yeah they have real, unusual body skill.

I think that aiki/internal power is a separate skillset from martial techniques. You can use aiki with aikido, judo, taiji, MMA form, or you can do those without aiki. My interest in Nishio is more on the technical side because, as mentioned, he seems different from the aiki I've felt. Another example of aiki:

 

[windwalker099]

My interest in Nishio is more on the technical side because, as mentioned, he seems different from the aiki

Ah, understand

Thought he demoed good skill, although we may be looking at different aspects

It's curious that you see the "aiki" body skills in Nishio, because I personally am not that sure. Obviously one would need to touch to be sure but, for example, he recommends breaking contact on shoulder/sleeve grabs while people with aiki skills typically do not break contact and use the opponent's grip to break their balance.

He mentions "controlling the opponent's mind," which aligns with the concept of entering (進, jìn). In Chinese martial arts, this is often associated with 意 (yì), meaning intention. Instead of "controlling," think of it as "directing" once a "link" or connection has been established. In this sense, relying on physical contact is too slow. It’s better to understand the space and be able to work with the opponent's intent.

Referring to Chinese concepts like 凌空勁 (líng kōng jìn) or "Volley Jin," whether there is contact or no contact, it’s the same skill set. In practice, the touch is very light, the proverbial 4oz that many mention in use.

In the video, the usage seemed quite similar, if not the same.

In Hawaii, my friend at the time, a "Shihan," was quite skilled. He trained and taught at both schools in Hawaii: one under Koichi Tohei and another gym with a different focus, though I have long forgotten the name.

---

 

[O'Malley]

Ah, understand

Thought he demoed good skill, although we may be looking at different aspects


He mentions "controlling the opponent's mind," which aligns with the concept of entering (進, jìn). In Chinese martial arts, this is often associated with 意 (yì), meaning intention. Instead of "controlling," think of it as "directing" once a "link" or connection has been established. In this sense, relying on physical contact is too slow. It’s better to understand the space and be able to work with the opponent's intent.

Referring to Chinese concepts like 凌空勁 (líng kōng jìn) or "Volley Jin," whether there is contact or no contact, it’s the same skill set. In practice, the touch is very light, the proverbial 4oz that many mention in use.

In the video, the usage seemed quite similar, if not the same.

Ooh I see! It sounds similar to the way this karate teacher (heavily influenced by his aikido training) explains the concept of "entering body":

In Hawaii, my friend at the time, a "Shihan," was quite skilled. He trained and taught at both schools in Hawaii: one under Koichi Tohei and another gym with a different focus, though I have long forgotten the name.

---

Sounds like an interesting person to train with. Koichi Tohei is one of the most important teachers in aikido history and he managed to invent a simple system to try and transmit the body skills he had developed.

 

[drop bear]

Yes, makes sense so far. My concern was whether the positions he's demonstrating would translate into a live environment: I would tend to say yes, but some of you may see things that I don't.

Are you trying to describe the striking?

Because that is basically a check hook.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I've always liked Shoji Nishio, mostly because his moves were just beautiful to watch. For context, Nishio was a 4th dan in Kodokan judo (under Kyuzo Mifune) and 5th dan in Shindo Jinen-ryu karate (under Yasuhiro Konishi). He studied aikido under its founder, Morihei Ueshiba, eventually obtaining 8th dan, and later went on to obtain high ranks in iaido and jodo as well.

The interesting thing with Nishio was that, as an advanced practitioner of combative Japanese martial arts, he dared to adapt aikido techniques to his vision of martial effectiveness. This results in interesting technical quirks and setups revolving around strikes, which then end up in throws/pins.

As I'd like to incorporate some of his ideas into my own work, I'm not sure I could tell apart what would work and what wouldn't, and I could use some comments from experienced practitioners that know more about fighting than I do.

For example, in the video below, his explanations from 5:32 to 7:44 seem reasonable but I'd like to hear comments from other martial artists on whether it makes sense:

Likewise for the part from 15:09 to 16:27.

So, happy to hear your takes on this!

My personal thoughts is that it's better to demo with someone outside of my system. If I want to demo Jow Ga kung fu then I want to use someone outside of the system to help me avoid making assumptions of what I have to deal with.

The examples of punching are inaccurate, which skews the reality of what can be done and how something should be done. Like I've always said "Family doesn't fight family" and Sparring should be System A vs System B. What I see in the video is this:

"This is how you fight an Akido Practitioner by using Aikido"

I'm not questioning the validity of the techniques. I'm questioning the approach in which the techniques are applied against. Change the opponent and the concept and techniques used will also change to address the attack that one is facing.

He mentions "controlling the opponent's mind," which aligns with the concept of entering (進, jìn). In Chinese martial arts, this is often associated with 意 (yì), meaning intention. Instead of "controlling," think of it as "directing" once a "link" or connection has been established.

This is similar to my understanding of controlling. More directing and redirecting of things like focus, attention, and purpose. By attacking high, my opponent will forget what is beneath that area of attention. This would allow kicks to enter with little to no restrictions. It is one of the reasons why CMA has a "Do more than one thing" approach when it comes to attacking as this will help to address the things the mind may not be aware of when attention is redirected.

I personally do not like TMA demo Reverse Punch entries because, that's not how reverse punch entries look like outside of TMA competitions and demos.

 

[isshinryuronin]

I personally do not like TMA demo Reverse Punch entries because, that's not how reverse punch entries look like outside of TMA competitions and demos.

You bring up a very important point, IMO, in regard to the evolution of modern TMA. The point is (for karate, not sure about CMA) is that it was NOT designed for system A vs system A use. Yet, this is the way it is commonly practiced in the dojo and in tournaments. Take defending against a straight step-thru lunge punch. This is probably the most common attack/defend scenario practiced during karate class. I have never seen this situation occur on the street and not very often in tournaments (more common in Shotokan ones).

Such practice does train timing, evasive footwork, distance mgmt., etc., so it's not all bad. But most self-defense situations one may actually face will not be against another karateka. The types of attacks will not be similar to what is trained in the dojo or even for tournaments, differing in techniques, angles and execution.

Pre-1920's karate masters would have a hard time doing well in modern tournaments, sparring or kata. They just didn't practice the things that lead to points. To keep self-defense-based karate relevant and effective in real life, it should be practiced against systems B and C as well, including "non-system" freestyle street fighting and common type of attacks by nontrained (but still dangerous) people as it was originally designed to do.
.

 

[Hot Lunch]

Take defending against a straight step-thru lunge punch. This is probably the most common attack/defend scenario practiced during karate class. I have never seen this situation occur on the street and not very often in tournaments (more common in Shotokan ones).

I've seen it happen. Not by trained martial artists, but by experienced scrappers.

I'm not saying that it's effective or ineffective, but these guys seemed to know what they were doing. I believe the reasoning behind it is that if they're striking and moving forward towards their opponent, it overwhelms them.

But also, in my estimation, you're either risking stepping into something or you've figured out your opponent's playbook.

 

[JowGaWolf]

G

I've seen it happen. Not by trained martial artists, but by experienced scrappers.

Where the punches linear or circular. If they are circular reverse punches then it's not the same thing. Most non-martial artists throw circular reverse punch which are more likc cross punches. This punch will hit you if you try to block it like a linear punch. The Aikido student definitely didn't throw his punch like this.

The punch goes across the defenders body (looking at the reaction from the head.). Ironically this guy chambers his left arm which was something that was posted in the forum about how Chambering the punch is not practical.

Here we can really see the circular punch as his the red hat's fist goes across his own body. Linear punches you can just push off to the side. The same cannot be done against circular punches because of the direction that they come in. If you train your technique against the least common punch then that technique will have a high risk of failing. Most people don't do punches as demonstrated in that Aikido video. Because of that the technique will fail against someone outside of Aikido

Full video - Here you can even see the setup for the punch This would be a "Step Reverse punch" and not a "Step lunge reverse punch"

I'm not saying that it's effective or ineffective, but these guys seemed to know what they were doing. I believe the reasoning behind it is that if they're striking and moving forward towards their opponent, it overwhelms them.

The concept at the most basic is this "If my strike hits you before your strike hits me, then your strike will lose power." This is only true if my strike disrupts their structure that's needed to generate the power for their strike. But that's concept and not application.

That Aikido video had a lot of concept in it. Application would be a video of them sparring with one person trying to be more succussful than the other (more dominant) if you are keeping score.

Rokkas the Aikido guy learned the hard way. People don't punch like Aikido Students.

 

[Hot Lunch]

Here we can really see the circular punch as his the red hat's fist goes across his own body. Linear punches you can just push off to the side. The same cannot be done against circular punches because of the direction that they come in. If you train your technique against the least common punch then that technique will have a high risk of failing. Most people don't do punches as demonstrated in that Aikido video. Because of that the technique will fail against someone outside of Aikido
View attachment 31795

I agree.

The step-in punch might be practical against someone who is untrained. Or, if trained, you can use it in a controlled sparring setting.

However, an oi zuki entails moving your whole body in the same direction at once. On the streets, that's a gift to martial artist, and probably even moreso to an aikidoka.

 

[O'Malley]

Are you trying to describe the striking?

Because that is basically a check hook.

Yes but also the positioning. Sometimes he does a check hook but other times (like the timestamps I mentioned above) he does a kizami/stiff jab.

However, at 6:56 he steps to his right side while throwing a diagonal (rising) straight left. I found it quite confusing as I couldn't figure out how he could put power into it (his bodyweight seems to shift to the right - opposite to the punch going left) nor whether the position made him safe (because a lack of power would turn that left hand strike into a simple check/post). Now I think I understand: he pushes off the left leg and strikes as he steps to the right, kind of like a left cross + slip to the right, but done upright and from a squared-up stance.

You bring up a very important point, IMO, in regard to the evolution of modern TMA. The point is (for karate, not sure about CMA) is that it was NOT designed for system A vs system A use. Yet, this is the way it is commonly practiced in the dojo and in tournaments. Take defending against a straight step-thru lunge punch. This is probably the most common attack/defend scenario practiced during karate class. I have never seen this situation occur on the street and not very often in tournaments (more common in Shotokan ones).

Such practice does train timing, evasive footwork, distance mgmt., etc., so it's not all bad. But most self-defense situations one may actually face will not be against another karateka. The types of attacks will not be similar to what is trained in the dojo or even for tournaments, differing in techniques, angles and execution.

Pre-1920's karate masters would have a hard time doing well in modern tournaments, sparring or kata. They just didn't practice the things that lead to points. To keep self-defense-based karate relevant and effective in real life, it should be practiced against systems B and C as well, including "non-system" freestyle street fighting and common type of attacks by nontrained (but still dangerous) people as it was originally designed to do.

Where the punches linear or circular. If they are circular reverse punches then it's not the same thing. Most non-martial artists throw circular reverse punch which are more likc cross punches. This punch will hit you if you try to block it like a linear punch. The Aikido student definitely didn't throw his punch like this.

The punch goes across the defenders body (looking at the reaction from the head.). Ironically this guy chambers his left arm which was something that was posted in the forum about how Chambering the punch is not practical.


Here we can really see the circular punch as his the red hat's fist goes across his own body. Linear punches you can just push off to the side. The same cannot be done against circular punches because of the direction that they come in. If you train your technique against the least common punch then that technique will have a high risk of failing. Most people don't do punches as demonstrated in that Aikido video. Because of that the technique will fail against someone outside of Aikido



The concept at the most basic is this "If my strike hits you before your strike hits me, then your strike will lose power." This is only true if my strike disrupts their structure that's needed to generate the power for their strike. But that's concept and not application.

That Aikido video had a lot of concept in it. Application would be a video of them sparring with one person trying to be more succussful than the other (more dominant) if you are keeping score.

Rokkas the Aikido guy learned the hard way. People don't punch like Aikido Students.

I agree.

The step-in punch might be practical against someone who is untrained. Or, if trained, you can use it in a controlled sparring setting.

However, an oi zuki entails moving your whole body in the same direction at once. On the streets, that's a gift to martial artist, and probably even moreso to an aikidoka.

Mostly agree with all of you: training only against the "step-through reverse punch"/oi tsuki gets you used to a specific and uncommon range and timing. The timing element in particular is easier since the attack travels a longer distance along the same trajectory. Same with the tanto (dagger) defenses which are often exclusively done in that fashion. A good complement could be to train the techniques against stabs with no step-through like here (3:54 - that style is used to sparring with the tanto, which is held in the lead hand like in fencing):

That being said, the step-through strike has its uses, as it covers a lot of distance, generates a lot of power behind the punch and loads the follow up cross/no-step-through-rear-hand/gyaku tsuki. Or, in the case of a knife, it doubles the range of your stabs and hides the blade to some extent.

I wonder whether Nishio stylists also train against other types of punches (in my lineage, for example, we don't) and also why the oi zuki is so prevalent in Japanese martial arts compared to other contexts. It remembers me that most jujutsu styles, including aikido, were born in an era before the introduction of karate and boxing to mainland Japan. The only strikes one would need to worry about would be the ones found in sumo (which are done same hand/same foot). Perhaps it's also linked to an ancient way of walking called "nanba aruki" (same hand-same foot, as opposed to our regular cross-hand walking), which was popular until the late 1800s. Here's a cool video on the topic (with simple fun exercises to understand the concept):

 

[marvin8]

Yes but also the positioning. Sometimes he does a check hook but other times (like the timestamps I mentioned above) he does a kizami/stiff jab.

But, the timing is the same. As the opponent moves, Shoji moves.

However, at 6:56 he steps to his right side while throwing a diagonal (rising) straight left.

A con with Shoji's demo is the opponent takes a full step while jabbing which gives Shoji more time to react. More commonly, the opponent takes a half step while jabbing then throws the straight left.

It's not a straight left. From southpaw stance, Shoji steps back with his right foot while throwing the "left lead cross." As he shows, this takes his head offline to the right (changing positions).

Terence Crawford throws the lead cross.

https://imgur.com/9CXkCr4

Adam Mizner performs "single whip [lead cross]."

https://imgur.com/gKU3hfa

I found it quite confusing as I couldn't figure out how he could put power into it (his bodyweight seems to shift to the right - opposite to the punch going left) nor whether the position made him safe (because a lack of power would turn that left hand strike into a simple check/post). Now I think I understand: he pushes off the left leg and strikes as he steps to the right, kind of like a left cross + slip to the right, but done upright and from a squared-up stance.

Shifting weight from the front foot to the rear foot can generate power and move the head offline for defense. Roy is throwing the rear cross, not the lead cross.

A punch is not only a punch to hurt the opponent. Striking can be an asking hand, probe, control the opponent, setup for throw, etc.

 

[O'Malley]

I like what I see, and that would bring us back full circle to the check hook.

However, I was talking about a specific motion and I had to watch again at x0.25 speed to catch it:

It's a side step to the right + knife hand block to the left (shuto uke). Considering his karate background it makes perfect sense. And my confusion stemmed from the assumption that he was generating power by closing the body (e.g. boxing punches), while he was opening his right hip, torso and left shoulder cuff. At that angle and speed it's hard to see but the second pic shows it well (the attacker gets struck on the left side of his head).