After 70 years in BJJ Flavio Behring promoted to White Belt with Red Bar

[Danny T]

BJJ Red Belt Flavio Behring Promoted to a White Belt with Red Bar | BJJ World
After being a 9th degree Red Belt what’s left? According to Gracie Jiu jitsu rules there’s nothing left because he couldn’t be promoted to 10th degree as that rank is reserved only for pioneers of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. So, red belt Flavio Behring after 70 years of BJJ is promoted to a white belt with red bar.

 

[JR 137]

Interesting. I don’t know much about him, but if he’s clearly head and shoulders above his 9th degree peers, then I don’t see the issue with promoting him to 10th degree if he’s truly at the level of the other 10th degrees.

But was it such a pressing issue that he HAD to be promoted to something? I get honoring someone who’s truly deserved a special way of being honored, but isn’t there a way without a promotion/special belt? Is his wearing a red belt causing confusion?

 

[JR 137]

And how come BJJ World doesn’t know how to count? They’re missing quite a few numbers in their list of red belts...
BJJ Red Belts | BJJ World

 

[Danny T]

And how come BJJ World doesn’t know how to count? They’re missing quite a few numbers in their list of red belts...
BJJ Red Belts | BJJ World

I'm can't claim to be up to date on whys or whats of rank in BJJ or who are 9th and 10 degrees in BJJ (Red Belts) but my understanding is up until Flavio being promoted there were, (50) 9th degree reds with Rickson Gracie being #50 and (5) 10th degree totaling 55 red belts.
The 10th degree is reserved for only the 5 pioneers, no one else can be promoted to 10 degree Red.
In their listing probably a copy and paste from a list and several got dropped.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I'm can't claim to be up to date on whys or whats of rank in BJJ or who are 9th and 10 degrees in BJJ (Red Belts) but my understanding is up until Flavio being promoted there were, (50) 9th degree reds with Rickson Gracie being #50 and (5) 10th degree totaling 55 red belts.
The 10th degree is reserved for only the 5 pioneers, no one else can be promoted to 10 degree Red.
In their listing probably a copy and paste from a list and several got dropped.

I don’t understand the mindset of reserving a rank only for the originators. That presumes that nobody can contribute or develop in a comparable fashion. IME, that can lead to the fallacy of infallibility.

 

[Danny T]

I don’t understand the mindset of reserving a rank only for the originators. That presumes that nobody can contribute or develop in a comparable fashion. IME, that can lead to the fallacy of infallibility.

I agree but...lol..., I wasn't consulted when the founders set it up.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I agree but...lol..., I wasn't consulted when the founders set it up.

A grievous oversight, Danny.

 

[JR 137]

I don’t understand the mindset of reserving a rank only for the originators. That presumes that nobody can contribute or develop in a comparable fashion. IME, that can lead to the fallacy of infallibility.

I agree, but I understand both sides of it. The no one else being promoted to 10th dan is a way of paying respect to their teachers and founders. It’s a way of showing humility and letting it be known that they will never consider themselves on their level. I like it. Then again, I’ve always thought 10th dan should only be a posthumous promotion, so you’ve got a reference point for my way of thinking. Word around the Seido Juku water cooler is Tadashi Nakamura (founder) has repeatedly stated he’ll never accept a 10th dan promotion; most say this is due to his belief that he’ll never stop learning. I’d do the same in if I was in his shoes. And Nakamura didn’t promote himself to 9th dan. He was promoted to 7th dan by Mas Oyama, and his 8th and 9th dan came from a Japanese budo organization/committee of some sort. Not sure on the specifics though, as it’s not something he advertises.

Looking at the BJJ ranking system, because 10th dan is off the table, 9th dan is basically the de facto 10th dan.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

they will never consider themselves on their level.

This is where the issue is, to me. They don’t promote themselves, so it’s not about humility. Saying nobody will ever be on par with the founders is how some arts go astray. I hope it won’t happen in BJJ.

 

[JR 137]

This is where the issue is, to me. They don’t promote themselves, so it’s not about humility. Saying nobody will ever be on par with the founders is how some arts go astray. I hope it won’t happen in BJJ.

I understand exactly what you’re saying. It is quite possible for current teachers to surpass the founders’ ability - skill, teaching, innovating, promoting, etc. In fact it would be quite odd if it were impossible, as the current crop has the benefit of learning from their seniors and picking up where they left off instead of starting from scratch. That’s no different than saying no one could ever continue Einstein’s work and take it to the next level. Of course they can and they have. Multiple times.

I personally think this is more of a “best” vs “greatest” argument. The 10 dan founders are the greatest. Many will come afterwards and be “better,” but they won’t consider themselves “greater.” Ali was the greatest champion of all time. But he wasn’t the best of all time. I guess reserving 10th dan for the founders is along those lines.

Then there’s the compelling argument that founders shouldn’t have even had a rank. The argument goes MA rank isn’t like military rank, but rather like school rank and grades. Teachers test and grade students, students don’t test and grade teachers; why does the teacher have a rank if he’s the founder of the school? Does anyone argue the teacher isn’t on a higher level on the course of study than his students?

 

[kuniggety]

You’ve got to keep in mind that rank beyond black belt is not about skill. Once a person makes black belt they’re considered an expert and inheritor of the art. Starting with the first stripe (first degree.. a little different from other arts), it’s about continuing to progress the art through teaching or competing (or both). They’re like longevity honor badges. It’s not a question of skill of saying a person can’t make second, sixth, or even tenth degree due to not being good enough. They’re already black belts.

 

[JR 137]

You’ve got to keep in mind that rank beyond black belt is not about skill. Once a person makes black belt they’re considered an expert and inheritor of the art. Starting with the first stripe (first degree.. a little different from other arts), it’s about continuing to progress the art through teaching or competing (or both). They’re like longevity honor badges. It’s not a question of skill of saying a person can’t make second, sixth, or even tenth degree due to not being good enough. They’re already black belts.

I look at BJJ dan ranks as how long they’ve been active (competing and/or teaching) and what they’ve contributed to the art, relative to their peers. It’s similar to the TMA arts that don’t have a curriculum after, say 5th dan; after that rank promotion is based on what you’ve returned to the art, so to speak, and not what you’re taking from it.

But as to the new white belt, I get, but don’t really get it either. What’s the point of a new belt? They could’ve honored him another way. But who am I to criticize? And I highly doubt they’re concerned with what I or any other random guy on the internet thinks. I know I wouldn’t be concerned if I was in their position.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I look at BJJ dan ranks as how long they’ve been active (competing and/or teaching) and what they’ve contributed to the art, relative to their peers. It’s similar to the TMA arts that don’t have a curriculum after, say 5th dan; after that rank promotion is based on what you’ve returned to the art, so to speak, and not what you’re taking from it.

But as to the new white belt, I get, but don’t really get it either. What’s the point of a new belt? They could’ve honored him another way. But who am I to criticize? And I highly doubt they’re concerned with what I or any other random guy on the internet thinks. I know I wouldn’t be concerned if I was in their position.

That was kind of my point. If you want to elevate someone above all others currently training, use the highest rank. If you invent a new one (even if it's just a belt color), that feels like working really hard to not use that highest rank. I don't think there's any disrespect (or lack of respect and humility) to the founders by using the top rank for someone living (and not a founder).

But that's just me. I don't see a problem in it, so long as it doesn't foster that attitude that the founders were superior in some significant way.

 

[JR 137]

That was kind of my point. If you want to elevate someone above all others currently training, use the highest rank. If you invent a new one (even if it's just a belt color), that feels like working really hard to not use that highest rank. I don't think there's any disrespect (or lack of respect and humility) to the founders by using the top rank for someone living (and not a founder).

But that's just me. I don't see a problem in it, so long as it doesn't foster that attitude that the founders were superior in some significant way.

Absolutely. I’d write more, but absolutely says it all

 

[drop bear]

That was kind of my point. If you want to elevate someone above all others currently training, use the highest rank. If you invent a new one (even if it's just a belt color), that feels like working really hard to not use that highest rank. I don't think there's any disrespect (or lack of respect and humility) to the founders by using the top rank for someone living (and not a founder).

But that's just me. I don't see a problem in it, so long as it doesn't foster that attitude that the founders were superior in some significant way.

There would be a whole lot of political keeping the peace with that move as well.

We know how bjjers are about belts.

 

[MA_Student]

Cool but typical though the Gracie's make a rule so no one apart from their family or real closest friends can get the highest rank

 

[msmitht]

I don’t understand the mindset of reserving a rank only for the originators. That presumes that nobody can contribute or develop in a comparable fashion. IME, that can lead to the fallacy of infallibility.

Nobody can. They opened the first Gracie school and taught their family. Is reserved as a permanent reminder. They fought to prove themselves and their style which we all owe a debt that can only be repaid by stepping on the mat and training.
I do personally believe that, according to the rules, Osvaldo Fadda should be a 10th as well. He was a student of Mayeda as well and also taught Jiu Jitsu to the people of Brazil .

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Nobody can. They opened the first Gracie school and taught their family. Is reserved as a permanent reminder. They fought to prove themselves and their style which we all owe a debt that can only be repaid by stepping on the mat and training.
I do personally believe that, according to the rules, Osvaldo Fadda should be a 10th as well. He was a student of Mayeda as well and also taught Jiu Jitsu to the people of Brazil .

I disagree. It is entirely possible for someone to contribute as powerfully at some point. It would b exceptional, but is possible. Just maintaining the art at a point where it could fracture and dissolve or lose its focus to new competition rules takes a huge effort. It might be that nobody will ever contribute at that level. I’m just opposed to the concept of reserving a rank for someone because they founded the art. I’ve seen reserved rank lead to hero worship and assumption of infallibility, which is detrimental to an art.

 

[Steve]

No one is entitled to anything. There are some things to which you are not entitled. Who really cares? There is a rank that is unattainable and reserved for the founders of the art. It's their art, and their rule to make or not make. Provided their motivation isn't illegal, there is no entitlement here.

Regarding whether the founders are superior to you, chances are, they are. Not because you are a bad guy and they were perfect. They may have been deeply flawed human beings. But there are a gazillion different measures of a human being. They had the combination of skill, resources, timing and gumption to start a martial art style and make it stick. In this case, BJJ continues to grow world wide. I was just at a tournament this weekend where there were close to 1,000 individual competitors, somewhere in the area of 10,000 matches. About 400 were kids. And this is a regional tournament the week before the Pan Ams in California (in other words, this is usually the least attended tournament of the year). The tournament has grown over the years to a two day event with 8 mats running continuously for about 18 hours.

And that's even before you get into whether they are more skilled in the art than you, which they probably are. Generally, guys who start their own martial art that is successful bring to the table martial experience that will be diluted over time.

To be clear, it's a retrospective determination. I mean, lots of guys try to start a new martial arts style and fail. You are probably superior to those guys, and may mock them relentlessly for their folly.

 

[msmitht]

Well of you/me/anyone trains in BJJ as a bb for 47 years and make the red belt we/they have a right to legitimately argue the rule. Until then it doesn't matter and our opinions don't really matter. They are the founders and that is why.