Advanced Techniques

[jks9199]

A comment was made in a different thread that "more advanced techniques need more advanced defenses."

It reminded me of a story...

It was traditional in the villages to have a martial arts tournament during festivals. The way this would work is that someone would take the center of the ring, and face each new opponent in turn. As long as they won, they held the ring. If someone beat them, the new victor would take the center of the ring until they were, in turn, displaced.

One year, a skilled fighter was holding the center against all comers. Each one would come, and he would defeat them. Some easily, some with effort, but it was always clear that he was triumphant. Until, finally, a young student from the same style came up to the ring. They fought, and the student defeated this fighter! He used a technique taught in the first days of the system...

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

He used a technique taught in the first days of the system...

You won't learn how to counter the "leg lift" throw (the most difficult throw to counter) during your 1st day of your Judo training.

MA training is like to find the right key to open the right lock. There is no master key that can open all locks.

 

[skribs]

The story and the advice seem to be a little bit of a different lesson, both of which I see as true.

The Story
The story isn't that a simple technique beat advanced techniques...it's that a simple technique worked. And you know what? Out of all the kicks I've learned in Taekwondo, quite often I go back to the basic two - front kick and roundhouse kick. Because they do work.

There was another thread where it was brought up that horse stance punching (the first thing you learn in a lot of TMA schools) is useless in a real fight. We typically use horse stance in our training after moving at a 45-degree to our opponent, and in that case it can be effective. But the stance isn't your guard and it's not a pose you hold. It's a position you're in for just a few seconds after moving past a strike, where you counter with a few strikes of your own and then either disengage or transition out of. So even though it is "useless" once you learn the typical fighting stance and the asymmetric punching style that most martial arts use, there is still a place for it, and at the right time it isn't useless anymore.

Going back to kicks, as a white belt, front kick and roundhouse kick are basically all you'll use in sparring. Even once you've learned other kicks, you're usually not fast enough or accurate enough to hit with them until later. Now, as a black belt, I have about a dozen or so different kicks I can use. So while front kick and roundhouse kick are still used, they're maybe 25% of my kicks instead of 100% like they were before.

The Advice
The advice that advanced techniques are needed to beat other advanced techniques is kinda true, though. It's not necessarily about how advanced the technique is in general, but from the perspective of the curriculum.

I had asked a while back in the Krav Maga forum what was the point of advancing rank in Krav. Since the system is designed to be a simple combat system, what will a brown belt learn that a white belt wouldn't, for example? Not to say that training more is a bad thing. Obviously you want to build muscle memory and neural pathways. But is a brown belt simply going to have a better palm strike and more experience using it, or are they going to know more?

The answer was that the number of scenarios you should be prepared for are increased. That sounds kind of like my Hapkido training, in which as a white belt, we learn defenses against various grabs from the front. As a yellow belt, defenses against grabs from the rear. Purple belts, grabs from a kneeling position. Then punch defense, kick defense, and later knife and gun defense. Now, I'd say hapkido is the opposite of krav, in that it is definitely NOT designed to be a quickly applied art (takes a long time to learn the leverage points properly) and it is grappling focused, but I assume the same is true of krav, based on what I've heard. That as a beginner, you learn a small set of scenarios, and that gets expanded on.

 

[pdg]

A comment was made in a different thread that "more advanced techniques need more advanced defenses."

I think that was my comment

If you look at my recent reply to that thread, I give a little more detail.

Advanced doesn't mean complicated or even a different move, it means better.

A better (more advanced, faster and more accurate) jab needs a better (more advanced, faster and more accurate) block/slip/avoid. Otherwise you get hit.

A one day student can use a middle block to deal with a slowed down and pulled punch.

A 3 year student can use a middle block to deal a good punch, and will likely be able to use that to set up something in return. This is what I call a more advanced set of techniques.

 

[drop bear]

How do you escape from double under hooks?

Don't let them get double underhooks.

 

[pdg]

How do you escape from double under hooks?

Don't let them get double underhooks.

That's a specific example of my favourite fight philosophy.

Best way to win a fight?

Be elsewhere.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

How do you escape from double under hooks?

Don't let them get double underhooks.

You can use

- over hook to counter under hook.
- under hook to counter over hook.

Best way to win a fight?

Use the right key to open the right lock.

 

[JR 137]

You can use

- over hook to counter under hook.
- under hook to counter over hook.

Best way to win a fight?

Use the right key to open the right lock.

How are you going to be able to over hook when your opponent has already sunk both under hooks?

How are you going to be able to under hook when your opponent has already sunk both over hooks?

Unless you’re “double jointed,” or your opponent makes a serious mistake, you’re not. Both of your arms are already tied up. All you can do is hope he makes a mistake or doesn’t know what to do with them.

 

[JR 137]

How do you escape from double under hooks?

Don't let them get double underhooks.

Same can be said for RNC. Or so I hear, as I have no real experience with it.

Same for the wrestling double bar stack. All you can do is hope to be able to kick over once you’ve been turned, which is pretty low percentage, but at least it’s something.

 

[JowGaWolf]

How do you escape from double under hooks?

Don't let them get double underhooks.

I had to laugh at this because this is how my mind works for defending against take downs. For me the plan is simple, don't be in a position that will allow my opponent to easily take me down. If I can do that 95% of the time, then I don't have to worry about the actual ground fighting. I can beat 1000 ground fighting simply by not being on the ground.

 

[Deleted member 39746]

I can bring up a anaology for that if you like, sometimes you need one specific tool to do something that the others cant and it cant be used for anything else.


Also jokes on you i always keep a heavy weight attached to a rope to be released on my attackers at any given notice.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

How are you going to be able to over hook when your opponent has already sunk both under hooks?

How are you going to be able to under hook when your opponent has already sunk both over hooks?

Unless you’re “double jointed,” or your opponent makes a serious mistake, you’re not. Both of your arms are already tied up. All you can do is hope he makes a mistake or doesn’t know what to do with them.

- When your opponent gets you an underhook, he just gives you a free overhook (and also the other way around).
- You only deal with one of your opponent's arms.
- When your opponent gets you in both arms, you let him has one, but you remove the other. You spin your body to one side of his body so you can use both arms to deal with his one arm if needed.
- When you counter your opponent, you are not facing him any more. instead, you and him are facing toward the same direction.
- Your underhook can give you the "lifting/pressing" power. Your overhook can give you the "cracking/pressing" power. Both can be used to control your opponent's shoulder.
- You press his shoulder, spring one of his legs, he will be down.

Here are examples.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

How do you escape from double under hooks?

Don't let them get double underhooks.

All counters involves with 3 stages:

- before it happens,
- during it happens,
- after it has happened.

If I can stay 20 feet away from you, none of your MA skill can work on he.

 

[skribs]

All counters involves with 3 stages:

- before it happens,
- during it happens,
- after it has happened.

If I can stay 20 feet away from you, none of your MA skill can work on he.

I think Donnie Yen uses a staff in Ip Man that would be well within range of you.