Adoption?

[Carol]

Adoption is not an easy process, emotionally, financially, or practically. And that's if there are no complicating factors, like special needs or cross-race. Or issues like some rulings and decisions that have said that the birth parents can revoke their consent for an unforgivably long period... so that the kid someone's been loving and raising for years can suddenly be yanked away. It's not easy for the birth parent, either, to let go off their child.

Adoptive parents, as well as the birth parents who recognize that for whatever reason they cannot care for the child properly, deserve to be praised. Adoption should be more effective encouraged, though I admit that I don't know how it can be done.

I have some ideas as to how it can be done, but it would take a lot of people pushing for it. I can't picture that happening because adoption is seen by too many folks in the U.S. as an undesirable option.

There is the spritual support. I don't know of any organized religion that will hold up adoption as service to the Lord. But especially in days like now when we see values breaking down and families eroding...isn't giving a child wihtout parents a permanent family one of the most important things one can do? And because not everyone can, or will, that only increases its importance.

Another element is corporate support. The Canadian company I worked for offerend an adoption benefit...up to (some monetary amount) something like that to defray the legal costs of adoption, I think there may have even been a situation where you could be granted an extra day or two of paid leave to address the scheduled matters regarding the adoption of the child, although that leave would run concurrent with unpaid FMLA. I understand that in the economy, many companies are cutting benefits...but how expensive is agreeing to pay for a benefit that their employees may never use?

I thnk more support could be given to potential adoptive parents to help navigate the legal process...perhaps a way to track online the status of your paperwork, or a network of people that had already adopted in the state that were willing to give an hour or two a week helping potentially adoptive parents.

What about tax incentive for adopting...esp. older children, or tax credits (not deductions) for said legal costs? It costs the goverment money to keep the child in foster care, it could be more cost-effective in the long run to encourage parents to adopt.

There is some support from the U.S. Government, adoption is a qualifying condition for unpaid FMLA, the US DHHS is running PSAs encouraging people that you don't have to be perfect to be a perfect parent.

Unfortunately I think the trouble with helping parents who would at least be willing to consider adoption is more than the costs in the way, it is also the paradigms.

 

[Bruno@MT]

One note on birth control -- Carol's oversimplified the Roman Catholic Church's teachings on birth control; only artificial birth control is prohibited. That includes surgical measures like tubal ligation or vasectomy. Anything that artificially blocks conception. Modern Natural Family Planning can be very effective, though it isn't easy and requires self discipline and self control.

Spoken like someone whose wife's period is regular as clockwork.
Given that both my kids were conceived within a couple of weeks after my wife quitting the pill (i.e. we are very fertile people), and the wildly irregular cycle of my wife, there is NO way, short of abstinence, that we could plan our sex life and a reasonable expectancy of not conceiving.

 

[Stac3y]

Spoken like someone whose wife's period is regular as clockwork.
Given that both my kids were conceived within a couple of weeks after my wife quitting the pill (i.e. we are very fertile people), and the wildly irregular cycle of my wife, there is NO way, short of abstinence, that we could plan our sex life and a reasonable expectancy of not conceiving.

Indeed. Women's cycles are not all the same. I conceived my second son after being off birth control pills for approximately 3 days due to a dispute with the insurance company. Fortunately, we were in the throes of planning to stop birth control within the next month or two, anyway. And I was using the "counting method" when I conceived my first son. Apparently, I ovulate irregularly despite menstruating regularly. Now that you all know WAY too much about me....

 

[Carol]

Indeed. Women's cycles are not all the same. I conceived my second son after being off birth control pills for approximately 3 days due to a dispute with the insurance company. Fortunately, we were in the throes of planning to stop birth control within the next month or two, anyway. And I was using the "counting method" when I conceived my first son. Apparently, I ovulate irregularly despite menstruating regularly. Now that you all know WAY too much about me....

Spoken like someone whose wife's period is regular as clockwork.
Given that both my kids were conceived within a couple of weeks after my wife quitting the pill (i.e. we are very fertile people), and the wildly irregular cycle of my wife, there is NO way, short of abstinence, that we could plan our sex life and a reasonable expectancy of not conceiving.

Or if you were like my former husband and I...um...ummm....modern, effective, natural family planning is the reason why we never had kids. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. :lol:

 

[Carol]

In a normal parent relationship, you can expect kids to listen to their parents and do what they say based on trust and love. Kids that are incapable of establishing this trust relationship will never be compelled to really listen to their parents or to actually do things out of love. That simply doesn't happen.

Knowing what I know, and with significant chance of getting that problem if the kids fully understands the ultimate betrayal by its own parents, I would never ever adopt a child that is not a baby. This sort of thing is capable of ruining marriages and relationships, if the kid tries to play one parent against the other. Note that the problem is fairly specific: kids that lost the love of their parents due to death or other non voluntary circumstances can learn to love again. Kids that were betrayed and know it ... the odds are not good.

Bruno I love your bluntness. And props to you for helping the young girl in Haiti, too.

Thank you so much for bringing this up and sharing your experiences. You are touching on some very, very, very important points that I think are worth repeating for everyone that either has kids, or plays some kind of positive role in how they are raised.

IMO the worst thing for a child is to be abandoned by their parents. And many, many, many kids in the U.S. have been partly abandoned by one of their parents. This is particularly problematic for American boys whose father wasn't in the picture. Boys who suffer the death of their father typically do not suffer the same issues.

A dear friend of mine is going through a lot of trouble with her 12 year old son. He got in to trouble at school as a direct result of unfavorable communication wiith his father....who doesn't act like he cares for the boy. He's skipped out on playing his child support, been stripped of nearly all his visitaton rights, save holidays, and has since married a different woman with kids on her own. So when the boy goes for a holiday visit, what does he see? He sees his father living happilly living his life and carrying for someone elses kids, while not taking the barest minimum needed to support his own. Ouch. Or as he said when he was 10, "It hurts so bad...right here" (and placed his fists over his heart).

I think an advantage that ours have is timing. My sister had both of her kids when she was in her mid 20s, and both built a life for themselves that lead to each of them moving out permanently out permanently at a very young age (17). My sister and her husband can now dedicate all of their personal attention to the new kids. Many parents do not have that luxury.

The new kids were betrayed once (by their biological parents). The 13 year old in particular is acutely aware of what has gone on with the family. However, my sister made it possible so they did not have to be betrayed again (by the state) by permanently breaking up the siblings.

On one of my visits, the kids and I cleared the table after dinner. I grabbed a sponge and started to wash the dishes. The 12 year old jumped in...I told him not to worry. He said "Guests aren't supposed to work." I said...well...its a little different when guests are family. He kind of gave me this look like he wasn't sure what to do. The other two boys were absorbed in a book in the living room.

I then said "You know what else family does? Cover each other's butts. How about a deal. I do the dishes while you go grab a book and keep your brothers company." He kinda whispered "You sure?" I nodded. "Yes. Go." He grinned and went over to the living room, and picked up a book himself.

So far so good...since August. We'll see what lies ahead in the future. Is that the answer to all that is wrong....no.

But we may have lucked out with some damn good kids.

 

[Blade96]

Carol,

Cause life is too easy now. You don't respect life when it's so easy to just do your own thing. Way to many people want their pleasure now, right now, and pay later (if ever) and that 'meism' is a great part of the problem.

Add to that the loss of respect for life (Abortion, no-fault child abandonment, broken homes, etc...) and well, why go through the effort? And that is the attitude.

Sometimes I think we need a good depression or world war to bring back the 'greatest generation'. We seem to have lost our way.

Deaf

I'm pro choice. So is my family. My best friend had an abortion.

We do not EVER have a disrespect for life. If anything planning your family carefully shows a respect for life, not the opposite.

and btw one of my friends is adopted, and she knows everything. Why, when, how, what where, who, etc. She of course hates her natural biological father for abandoning her and not paying her any attention (she is almost 22 and he still treat her like dirt)

I agree with telling adopted kids about everything. It almost seems like people are saying they want babies - people who dont know anything - so they can hide the past, THEIR past which should belong to them - and keep secrets from them. Yes it may be more difficult to gain their trust with an older kid but I think keeping things from them is as bad. My adopted friend is glad her past is hers, and she knows everything and nothing was hidden from her.

Some of you speak of getting trust when adopting a baby that you might not get from an older child. Then speak of hiding the truth because they are babies and they 'wont know' so you think you'll get trust? What kind of trust do you think you will get if they do find out you've been lying and deceiful and hiding stuff from them?

That and no offense but whoever said natural family planning - also known as the rhythm method....can be done if you have careful dicipline...doesnt know diddly squat. Too much religious doctrine maybe? and not enough biology? A woman's ovaries can release an egg at any time - even while they are on a period.

 

[Andy Moynihan]

Other than the examples that have been listed above. Some folks just do not want to have children.

And those that do, generally go about it the traditional way.

 

[Tames D]

Well done and well said. Being adopted myself, I can relate to your story and luckily my adoptive parents were of the same mind you are.

Your children.......are your children......period. Whether they are biological or adopted you run the same crapshoot. You teach, love, care and dicipline them as best you know how and hope and pray it takes root.

Then you do the hardest thing a parent can do.......


let go.


Michael

I'm not looking forward to the famous words "you can't tell me what to do, your not my real dad". And to be honest, I don't know how I will respond to that. I know it will break my heart.

 

[Carol]

I'm not looking forward to the famous words "you can't tell me what to do, your not my real dad". And to be honest, I don't know how I will respond to that. I know it will break my heart.

A guy I used to work with married a lady with a teenage daughter. The father...existed, but was largely not in the picture. So when the teen strated up with the "You're not my real father" bit once or twice, he let it go once or twice, he let it go. When she did it again, he just said "I'm the closest thing to one that you've got."

She cooled down after that.

 

[Ken Morgan]

Oh, I forgot to add that my dad and stepmom were turned down by several church adoption services for being the "wrong" religion.

:disgust: There is no such thing as a right religion.

 

[Ken Morgan]

Honestly Carol, my kids are older, and I don’t want anymore. I want to travel extensively and finally focus hard on career. I would have wanted more children, but I just couldn’t have afforded it financially. If it ever becomes necessary I would sacrifice everything to look after my nieces and nephews, without question.

You should only be a parent when you are willing to contribute the time necessary to raising a healthy child in a loving home.

 

[Ken Morgan]

Carol,

Cause life is too easy now. You don't respect life when it's so easy to just do your own thing. Way to many people want their pleasure now, right now, and pay later (if ever) and that 'meism' is a great part of the problem.

Add to that the loss of respect for life (Abortion, no-fault child abandonment, broken homes, etc...) and well, why go through the effort? And that is the attitude.

Sometimes I think we need a good depression or world war to bring back the 'greatest generation'. We seem to have lost our way.

Deaf

Bull.

Please don’t look at the past through rose coloured glasses, the good ol days weren’t always good.

You’re right let’s push women’s issues back 80 years, lets push spousal abuse into the dark again, lets let women have back alley abortions, lets put the coloured folk back into the back of the bus, lets not let people vote because of their ethnicity, lets listen to the priests and nuns obediently and let our children get beaten and raped, lets get rid of the social safety net and let people starve and succumb to disease, lets invade countries and topple regimes because we don’t like how they treat American businesses, lets have cops and teachers beat the **** out of people for little or no reason.

Do you want me to go on?????

 

[girlbug2]

Some of you speak of getting trust when adopting a baby that you might not get from an older child. Then speak of hiding the truth because they are babies and they 'wont know' so you think you'll get trust? What kind of trust do you think you will get if they do find out you've been lying and deceiful and hiding stuff from them?

.

I think, Blade, that the post you are referring to isn't about hiding the truth from babies because they 'won't know'. It's an expression of concern that an older child will bear psychological wounds from being aware as an older child that they were betrayed/abandoned by their biological parents--which may result in their never being able to trust parent figures fully again. Whereas, babies are the "blank slates" that don't come with these issues. They may find out lwhen they are older what it means that they were adopted, but their personalities can be fully formed without the mistrust; as far as they are concerned, the only Mom or Dad they ever knew has always stood by them.

 

[Blade96]

:disgust: There is no such thing as a right religion.

I thanked this post but I suppose some religions are 'right' for certain people. But they are most definitely not for everybody.

(like shotokan is right for me, but not for you, maybe.)

 

[AlanE]

There's no question my personality came from my adopted parents - good parents in so many ways. Trouble still can set in, as in every family. I was abandoned (not the time to explain) more than once, then while being abandoned, an accident occurred and I lost my parents entirely! So what part of their personality can I distance myself from and what part to keep?
You might say being adopted helped some, unlike children of a parent who committed a crime or a suicide. They're connected in genes and know it. They feel abandoned, too.
Gosh, I think Carol started it or Bruno, but the abandoned thing wreaks havoc all over. As much as I dealt with things, the creeping abandonment never stops gnawing at me.
"Don't leave me" might be imprinted on my subconscious. Is it on everyone's?

 

[Ken Morgan]

I thanked this post but I suppose some religions are 'right' for certain people. But they are most definitely not for everybody.

(like shotokan is right for me, but not for you, maybe.)

Yeah, but Jacklyn, your karate has never told you to kill people, rape people, make you pray for healing instead of going to a hospital, told you that you were inferior because you are a women, forced you to marry someone, or told you that fairy tales written in the Iron age were true, or hold everyone else in the world who doesn’t think the same as you with contempt, or told you to believe in some of the fairy tales but not some others in the very same book, and then confusingly, punished you when you didn’t believe in some of them.

I stand by what I said, There is no such thing as a right religion.

 

[Carol]

And come to think of it, I don't think karate cares about whether you're gay, straight, black, white, dog-owner, cat-owned, who your parents are, or where you came from.

 

[Blade96]

And come to think of it, I don't think karate cares about whether you're gay, straight, black, white, dog-owner, cat-owned, who your parents are, or where you came from.

Yeah, but Jacklyn, your karate has never told you to kill people, rape people, make you pray for healing instead of going to a hospital, told you that you were inferior because you are a women, forced you to marry someone, or told you that fairy tales written in the Iron age were true, or hold everyone else in the world who doesn’t think the same as you with contempt, or told you to believe in some of the fairy tales but not some others in the very same book, and then confusingly, punished you when you didn’t believe in some of them.

I stand by what I said, There is no such thing as a right religion.

Eh. Can't argue with logic. and facts.

(well you can, but will look like you're full of horseradish.)

 

[AlanE]

Eh. Can't argue with logic. and facts.

(well you can, but will look like you're full of horseradish.)

Horseradish!?
That's a good one!

 

[Blade96]

I think, Blade, that the post you are referring to isn't about hiding the truth from babies because they 'won't know'. It's an expression of concern that an older child will bear psychological wounds from being aware as an older child that they were betrayed/abandoned by their biological parents--which may result in their never being able to trust parent figures fully again. Whereas, babies are the "blank slates" that don't come with these issues. They may find out lwhen they are older what it means that they were adopted, but their personalities can be fully formed without the mistrust; as far as they are concerned, the only Mom or Dad they ever knew has always stood by them.

Could be. However even an older child can learn to trust if they get the right kind of people. I am an adult. I was hurt and betrayed by most people. I do not trust anyone. But if the right kind came along, I could learn trust.

Horseradish!?
That's a good one!

Heh. thanks

and btw thats true. my karate dont care about gay, straight,cat owner, dog owner, black white, etc. which is a good thing for me. It is totally non judgemental. People judge me. My karate does not.