Adherence to "curriculum"?

[bydand]

Something in a couple of other threads over the past few months have got me wondering.

Just how close to the lay-out and "order" do your individual schools stick.

I have talked to some students whose schools are straight down the line and hardly anything "extra" is introduced until way later in training, while other schools cover the basics and a LOT more right from the start. Personally I like the general guidelines of the order material is introduced, but only from a loose aspect. What I mean, is that there is so much more to the art than the narrow ABC-123 approach some schools take and they can point to the basic things that each level has to archive before moving on. But, that would seem like you are there to learn the least amount of material in the shortest time to gain rank quicker IMHO. Personally I would rather take a LONG time to gain rank and be able to walk into a seminar somewhere with people who I have never trained with before, and have them question why I am only at a lower level and not ranked higher, than the other way around.

Thoughts, observations, comments, or dis-agreements? I really want to know what others in our art think and expect when they walk into a different To-Shin-Do school somewhere, either for seminars, or while on vacation and not wanting to miss a couple of weeks training.

I know others walking into our school feel our Instructor is WAY too stingy with awarding rank, but we all like it that way and know we don't have to make apologies or explanations about what belt we tie on anywhere.

 

[SKB]

I like the diffrent approaches each school or group takes. I had the chance to train in Phoenix at the Quest center there. Things were not done exsactly the same way as what we do out here in Cali and I felt I was learning even more by training there.

We follow the curriculm but I think more as a way to just keep folks focused and on track.

 

[bydand]

I like the diffrent approaches each school or group takes. I had the chance to train in Phoenix at the Quest center there. Things were not done exsactly the same way as what we do out here in Cali and I felt I was learning even more by training there.

We follow the curriculm but I think more as a way to just keep folks focused and on track.

Having seen a little bit of both Mr. Stinston and Ms. Eldridge I know their teaching styles are different and am willing to bet each adds a lot to the basic curriculum. The school I go to as well follows the curriculum but adds tons of "extras" also. I think the basic outline is important to follow because it sets the bottom level of what is acceptable for progression through the ranks. The different Instructors I know well, all add vast amounts at each level and it shows at seminars.

 

[SKB]

The same is true with us. The curriculm is just a frame work. I do understand the idea of the curriculm and you right it is only a base line. Even after you go up a belt going back and doing something again is fun since now you understand the dieas a little more in depth.

 

[Michael Stinson]

The same is true with us. The curriculm is just a frame work. I do understand the idea of the curriculm and you right it is only a base line. Even after you go up a belt going back and doing something again is fun since now you understand the dieas a little more in depth.

This is definitely the truth. I have had the opportunity to train at quite a number of the Quest Centers now and all of them have their own additions/subtractions from what is taught from the basic curriculum. From the very beginning the curriculum was offered as a skeleton to be filled out. One of the worst things an instructor could do would be to follow the curriculum EXACTLY as written (this was from Mr. Hayes himself). I do think that we are all still following the basic integrity of what has been created. I also know that there is a bit being done by the seniors to maybe pull a little closer together in some of the various individual ideas/drills/concepts between the different schools as well.

My black belts know they had BETTER get back to the lower level classes. I am always learning myself...and always improving what I teach and how I teach it. I get my seniors students coming back to the beginning classes all the time saying, "You never taught me that!" My answer is, "Good thing you kept training "

One more thought on this...I just recently had a new student sign up BECAUSE we had an organized curriculum. For many people this method of learning is a must. If you get too crazy and too wide you will lose a large percentage of folks because they won't be able to process it properly. Many instructors continue to overload thier curriculums (if they even have one) and stack way too much at the bottom (often thereby leaving the top a little lite). It is important for many to have a well balanced and progressive curriculum. I know I myself feel I learned more in the first year of the Quest methodology than I did under the older kasumi-an model. I also watched all of the new folks coming in learning faster than I had in the past. This is part of what started the gears turning that led to my opening my own school in this organization.

 

[Jutoshi]

I ran one of the largest Quest Centers for 3 years and the one thing that I found frustrating was that there were a lot of the other Quest Centers that were not teaching any of the curriculum and basically creating their own without any basis on what An-Shu Hayes had put together. I had quite a few conversations with Mr. Hayes about this and he expressed that he knew it was going on and hoped that the instructors would eventually figure out that To-Shin Do was something he put together and should be followed on some level. I think there should be room for adding things but there should also be a foundation for the training that everybody in the art is expected to know at certain belt levels. If someone wears a green belt or a shodan they should have the skills that other students have at those levels.

This was especially evident at the black belt levels where high level black belts did not know what was expected from An-Shu Hayes for promotion to belts that were below their rank. I remember a 5th dan saying that he would have to ask Mr. Hayes what the curriculum was for someone to go to 4th dan because he didn't have it. He then showed me a bunch of stuff that had nothing to do with To-Shin Do and said that his students were required to know this. Shouldn't a 5th dan know what it takes to go to 4th dan? When you go in front of a "board" of senior instructors and they decide if you are ready to advance or not and none of them are looking for the same things it can get very frustrating.

I had many black belts that would go to Dayton and take their "tests" and come away with no feedback from the panel. This started feelings of animosity towards traveling 6 hours to Dayton from Chicago and spending money to test when it seemed it really was about who you knew and not what you knew.

I think that there has to be a curriculum for people to learn the foundations for any subject. Could you imagine going to high school and taking classes that were supposed to be about math but the instructor liked English better so they taught that instead but on the test you were expected to know advanced math skills. That is how it seemed when I left To-Shin Do 2 years ago.

I think that for new students studying a martial art structure is very important. Repetition creates mastery and for that to happen there has to be some type of structure where you will be able to practice the same thing more than just once every so often. I know when I studied Kasumi-An my instructor had us do the Ninpo Kihon Happo for 1 1/2 hours every class 3 times a week and that I feel is what makes my Taijutsu as good as it is today.

As they say one technique mastered is worth a thousand tried!

 

[lalom]

Jutoshi, any chance we can get Mr. Maienza on here to share his wealth of knowledge?

You've already answered a bunch of questions and sounds like Jizaikan is a great MA. Thanks for sharing what you have already!

 

[bydand]

I think there should be room for adding things but there should also be a foundation for the training that everybody in the art is expected to know at certain belt levels. If someone wears a green belt or a shodan they should have the skills that other students have at those levels.

I think you have hit the nail on the head with this statement. I also agree that if you are a certain belt level, the basic skill level and set should be the same from Quest Center to Quest Center. I also think that the pattern Mr. Hayes set out should be the MINIMUM required for that particular advancement.

I feel that each Instructor has their own special talent and that they have a natural tendency to teach more techniques toward that talent than just the basics. John Poliquin is great on the ground, so I would expect that his present students get a bit more groundwork than most other Quest Centers offer. Tori Eldridge is very fluid in her movement and I would think her students get a bit more of that than others. Brett Varnum is real good at submissions and locks and I know his students get a lot more of that than others.

I was mainly asking how many Schools go beyond the basic skill sets for advancements and require their students to be above the "norm" when it comes time for advancements.

My apologies for being so long in getting back to the thread, but Summer is here and time is short to enjoy it before the accursed white stuff is here again.

 

[Johan D'hondt]

hello everybody,

as a non-american student it may seem a bit weird to interact with a discussion on USA based quest centers "problems" (if that would be the exact term to use here)

curriculum: I just started a small training group in Belgium, we started training on "how it feels to be attacked", "how does it look like", and "how does my body and mind react when verbally and physically intimidated?"
Getting used to seeing a cross punch or face slap coming towards you....
Getting used to feeling the sensation of this akward position you get into when "someone wants to get YOU"...
So we started training the basic defense, lower yourself for stability, hands raised, hit the arm, disrupt with palm strike, follow-up with other hand palm strike, and backing away in retreat.
Depending on the size of the training partners, skill, experience, and so forth, the need for offering more then just basic curriculum is evident. You just "have to" offer more than the minimum if your true concern is to provide valid real life self-defence to your students.
But, here is my point, the curriculum provides the basic set-up for natural evolution to real-life self defence skill, the "basic set of examples" will get you out of most of the trouble you would not have been able to get out of without prior training, but there are so many different "body's" out there, so we'd better be prepared....
so, adherence to curriculum? I must say YES...
It helps us to get started and keeps us focused, it helps us in the process to mastery and it sure helps us defend ourselves...

Johan D'hondt
LDS Belgium

 

[ToShinDoKa]

Hi Everybody,

I'm Scott, a long distance student from the Columbia area of South Carolina. I hope I'm not out of place giving my experience with the Quest Centers' Curriculum. I'm not sure about a lot of Quest Centers, for the nearest one to me is approximately 4 hours and 11 minutes away in Chapel Hill, N.C., but when I first attended that school for my blue belt test, I was not disappointed!

No, as a matter of fact, I was impressed on how Mr. Robert Tokutoshi Broom knew the curriculum on Anshu's Long Distance Material (showing took the time to watch and study them), and made sure his students, (who volunteered to be my uke, enthusiastically), knew that curriculum AND more. I was at the Mountain Quest Seminar, where I met Anshu Hayes, Shihan Norris, Shihan Ontoshi Johnson, and some other sensational instructors, and I had the privilege to see NCQC brown belts test for their blacks. THEY WERE PHENOMINAL! I hold yudansha ranking in 2 other martial arts, (Shotokan sandan and Eishin-ryu Iaijutsu shodan) and my test, particularly the randori free response, and never had I seen such skill and proficiency.

They had 4 screaming 4 dans and above run at one brown belt tester, punching, kicking, and grabbing at once, no time for rest, and yet I saw the Waves of Power and Earth Stability curriculae BUST forth in all its glory, as well as the lighting strikes of fire element and the uncanny control of the situation only manifested by the wind elemental mindset and movement, and I was awe stricken. At that ONE MOMENT I saw something that astounded me. I'd expected to race through the kihon Go-Shin curriculum and not let it sink in and learn Anshu's basics, thinking I could manifest such a simple and easy curriculum, but even with 12 years of my short 21 year life in the martial arts, I've never SEEN such calm and martial instinct.

I can't speak for the other Quest Centers, but if they're anything like the Chapel Hill Quest Center, as headed by Tokutoshi and Hakutoshi senseis, than I KNOW they're well informed, and trained in all the basics, as well as a wealth of personal additions from loads of experience that make that 4 hour drive MORE than worth it! And believe me, you, I'm going up again next month for a Fire Element Seminar, with 3 other members of our small Ninpo Training Club here down south.

-Scott T. Ealey
Proud To-Shin Do Blue Belt Long Distance Student

 

[bydand]

Glad you are having such a positive experience in the art. That is one of the benefits of having a set, minimum curriculum that I have seen. Somebody should be able to go from one To-Shin-Do school to another and still be around the same level everyone else is at the same ranking. Sure there will be holes where one Instructor favors a certain aspect of the art, but the basics should be there.