About belts and time to obtain a BB

[Markku P]

Two to six months to chanbe the colour of the belt for me is to short, that's why the McDojangs are plagued with a lot of pooms belts that really s......ks in their technikes.

Yes if I wanted a McDojo for sure I will purse a lot of belts examinations don't caring about the quality of my teachings and the quality of my students.

Manny

I have done this way last 12 years and I think technical level of my students is good. It's all how you teach of course, If a teacher don't know what he is doing, then it doesn't matter how much time students spend to get their belts. I don't think a school is Mcdojo if they give belts faster. I some cases perhaps a curriculum is well organised and teachers are well educated so they bring good results? Perhaps we are thinking too much about color belts? I feel that I I don't care how good my students are at the beginning but when they reach black belt, then they should be good enough.

By the way, I have been teaching over 30 years in Finland, Sweden and USA. I have seen that there is many ways to get good results. Every instructor should find their own way..and that will come with trial and error

Now Manny, you have to find a way what will work with YOU and with your students. You know your country, the culture and the people..

/Markku P.

 

[Archtkd]

It's all how you teach of course, If a teacher don't know what he is doing, then it doesn't matter how much time students spend to get their belts. I don't think a school is Mcdojo if they give belts faster. I some cases perhaps a curriculum is well organised and teachers are well educated so they bring good results? Perhaps we are thinking too much about color belts? I feel that I I don't care how good my students are at the beginning but when they reach black belt, then they should be good enough.

By the way, I have been teaching over 30 years in Finland, Sweden and USA. I have seen that there is many ways to get good results. Every instructor should find their own way..and that will come with trial and error

/MarkP.

Well said.

 

[IcemanSK]

To answer this question YES they do, we have school here that only teach sport Olympic sparring and nothing else and they get KKW certificates because they are not held to any standerds what so ever, I have seen sport people get it withen six months if they can spar like a black belt. Hell Arlene Limas was a Karate person and was tought the rules of TKD sparring in less than a year if I remember correctly and she won a gold medal for the US back in 92 or 96 if memory serves ,e right

To clarify what Terry was saying about Arlene Limas. She was a highly decorrated Kung Fu person who did very well on the open tournament circuit before her switch o Taekwondo. She won a gold medal in 1988 in Seoul. If I recall correctly, she won due in large part by throwing front leg kicks (mainly side kicks). At that time, front leg side kicks weren't often thrown in international TKD, but were quite familiar on the US open circuit.

Terry is correct in spirit, just not in details. Since Arlene is/was a fellow Chicagoan, I couldn't let that go.

 

[chrispillertkd]

Terry, thanks for the information from the KKW textbook on requirements for 1st dan. I do wonder, however, if they are still the same today. Even if they are since the KKW doesn't enforce its own policies then I wonder at the usefulness of having them. One of the strengths of the KKW from an organizational standpoint is that it pretty much accepts anyone, as long as someone of the proper rank signs off on their promotion, no questions asked. One of its weaknesses from a martial arts standpoint is that it pretty much accepts anyone, as long as someone of the proer rank signs off on their promotion, no questions asked.

There is actually no time to achieve your poom/Dan grade for 1st, they could acheive it within a year and rightfully do in alot of cases. Now on page 85 they list all the requirements for no grades - 8th to 4th kup - 3rd kup to probationary Dan.
On page 86 they list from 1st to 3rd Dan - 4th to 6th Dan -over 7th Dan and if you would like to know them I will post later this week when I have more time. I hope this helps some of you.

Regarding the bolded statement, again it moves from the objective (what material needs to be learned to qualify for promotion) to the subjective (what level of proficiency is necessary to "rightfully" qualify as a 1st dan?). In all honesty, I have not seen anyone who has earned a black belt in a year's time that "rightfully" earned it (or looked anywhere near like they did). This doesn't include people who have trained in other styles and are being promoted with their skills already being somewhat advanced from their previosu training, of course. IIRC, after a year of training a total of 7.5 hours a week I was a green belt (6th gup). There were a variety of students training when I was that rank, who ranged from I to IV dan. It was quite obvious that I wasn't close to even the I dans as far as skill was concerned.

Maybe it's different in KKW Taekwon-Do.

Pax,

Chris

 

[Earl Weiss]

Terry is correct in spirit, just not in details. Since Arlene is/was a fellow Chicagoan, I couldn't let that go.

Met her a couple of times . Once at a Karate College event with Joe Lewis, Jeff Smith and Bill Wallace at Degerberg's and once at a Chuck Norris Convention where there were over 20 seminars and I attended one she taught as well as about 19 others.

 

[Gorilla]

Yous daughter can be very good to extraordinary practiciones of TKD and Karate and good for her, she deserves all what she has acomplish, and yes there are very talented kids that can earn black belt in less that two year but they are very very few.

Glad your daughter is so good.


My point is not how good my duaghter is but that I don't believe in putting set in stone standards for BB. It should depend on the practicer.

 

[chrispillertkd]

My point is not how good my duaghter is but that I don't believe in putting set in stone standards for BB. It should depend on the practicer.

So there are no standards that everyone must meet in order to be promoted to 1st dan? Do you mean in regards to objective standards (i.e., everyone must know these patterns, this type of step sparring, etc.) or do you mean subjective standards (i.e., everyone must be this good at the objective criteria)?

The KKW, according to Terry's previous post, sets an objective standard that everyone must meet. So do you mean there is no minimum ability that people must have in order to qualify as a BB?

Pax,

Chris

 

[terryl965]

Chris to answer your question the KKW standerds has not been change that I know of. The other way to get a KKW black belt is by winning first place in a quailfying meet.

I believe all schools have a set curriculum but I also know all schools do not hold people to the highest standerds including the KKW. Just no way to govern that completely, just like in school athlete get great grades but in reality some can barely read or write. I believe the same happens in TKD just because you can execute techniques does not mean you completely understand those techs. What I have taken from this converstation is this each there own and GOD help the TKD(martial art) world if people keep dropping standerds. I do not believe in handing someone a belt because they been with me for five years, they must earn it. I have had students that recieve there BB in two year and some that have taken eight, in the end does that belt really mean anything except you finish.

 

[Gorilla]

Chris...man I did not say what I meant in that post. I believe that you should have standards to achieve BB. The minimum criteria is set by the KKW and most schools add to that. I believe that the time to achieve them should be flexible to first Dan. After first Dan time in grade minimums should be met at least. Curriculum standards must always be met.

I hope this gives clarity on my thoughts!!! My thoughts in this regard have been around time in grade to first Dan.

This going to make allot of people angry but we are currently training with a 7 year old girl that if she continue to work a as hard as she does and train as much as she does will make first poom By 9 and deserve it. She loves it and is very dedicated...you can she it in her actions...hell you can see it in her eyes.

We have another boy who is just as skilled but not as mature. He will be granted grade slower

We have around 15 students in this age range and one stands out.

So there are no standards that everyone must meet in order to be promoted to 1st dan? Do you mean in regards to objective standards (i.e., everyone must know these patterns, this type of step sparring, etc.) or do you mean subjective standards (i.e., everyone must be this good at the objective criteria)?

The KKW, according to Terry's previous post, sets an objective standard that everyone must meet. So do you mean there is no minimum ability that people must have in order to qualify as a BB?

Pax,

Chris

 

[chrispillertkd]

Chris to answer your question the KKW standerds has not been change that I know of. The other way to get a KKW black belt is by winning first place in a quailfying meet.

This is interesting. Do you mean they can get a 1st dan this way? I thought such tournaments required dan ranking to compete (and then you could get promoted higher for winning the Olympics or some other similar competition). It's a practice I find questionable since there is more to TKD than free sparring but the KKW can do whatever it wants.

Pax,

Chris

 

[tigycho]

The other way to get a KKW black belt is by winning first place in a quailfying meet.

Really? BJJ belt promotions are sometimes granted on the basis of being able to beat just about anyone your own rank and to beat and/or hold your own against people of the next rank up, but I've never heard of 'combat promotion' in Tae Kwon Do.

I suppose since there is no actual oversight by the Kukkiwon, any KKW 4th Dan or higher could sign a KKW 1st Dan recommend for any reason they wanted. Is that what you were referring to, or is here a more official combat promotion system that I'm unaware of?

 

[Archtkd]

Really? BJJ belt promotions are sometimes granted on the basis of being able to beat just about anyone your own rank and to beat and/or hold your own against people of the next rank up, but I've never heard of 'combat promotion' in Tae Kwon Do.

I suppose since there is no actual oversight by the Kukkiwon, any KKW 4th Dan or higher could sign a KKW 1st Dan recommend for any reason they wanted. Is that what you were referring to, or is here a more official combat promotion system that I'm unaware of?

Many countries overseas, especially the developing one, base dan promotion on nothing else, but Olympic sparring. That usually means practitioners are doing taekwondo for only one thing, sparring.The Kukkiwon doesn't like it, but it happens. The WTF also kept its eyes closed to the issue for years, especially during the early days when it was building up taekwondo as an Olympic sport.

In general, the kukkiwon, it seems, begins cracking the whip at the higher dan levels -- 4th dan and up. The Kukkiwon expects holders of those dans to be the teachers. Also, holders of those dans are the ones most likely to have any direct contact with the organization. In that respect, the Kukkiwon will routinely fail unqualified people who take its instructor courses and do its higher dan tests in Korea.

 

[tigycho]

Many countries overseas, especially the developing one, base dan promotion on nothing else, but Olympic sparring.

So, the TKD haters who say it has devolved into nothing but a sport are, in those cases, absolutely correct. Interesting.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

So, the TKD haters who say it has devolved into nothing but a sport are, in those cases, absolutely correct. Interesting.

It would certainly appear that way. I have voiced my concerns many times here regarding tkd sparring and people always respond "ralph, you must understand, olympic tkd sparring is only a very small part of the curriculum, you must realise there is so much more to kkw tkd than just the sparring you see." Now Im told dan promotion can be based soley on olympic style sparring OR winning first place in a qualifying meet. So this person winning the qualifying meet may know no forms, not understand the traditions of tkd, the self defence aspect, the many other forms of sparring included in the kkw curriculum (the ones mastercole insisted kkw students know) or even how to tie a belt and they get handed a black belt based on a tournament result. At least now Im convinced that there is definetly a "sport" side to tkd and a "martial art" side, despite what some have tried to tell me.

 

[Archtkd]

So, the TKD haters who say it has devolved into nothing but a sport are, in those cases, absolutely correct. Interesting.

I don't think devolution is the right word. I say that because there are lots of places in the world where taekwondo practice, which got to those countries, fairly recently, was in the beginning nothing but Olympic sparring. It's only after many people in those places learn sparring and discover they all can't compete that they begin taking other aspects of taekwondo seriously. That includes poomsae, breaking, self defense, demonstration and other things. Essentially, it's the sparring (sport) part, which lures lots of young people to Kukkiwon taekwondo. When taekwondo got to Kenya in 1975, for example, sparring is the thing which helped draw many entrenched Shotokan and Gojuryu karateka to taekwondo. Those karateka, who had been taught by Japanese teachers, who preceded Korean taekwondoin, became the pioneers of Kenya taekwondo. I don't think that situation is unique to Kenya or even the developing world. There are lots of good taekwondoin who I know here in the United States, who focused solely on sparring in their early taekwondo years in the 1970s, but are now practicing Kukkiwon taekwondo in a more balanced way.

 

[Markku P]

So, the TKD haters who say it has devolved into nothing but a sport are, in those cases, absolutely correct. Interesting.

What's wrong to be a "sport"? I feel it's pretty useless to draw a line that some martial arts are more as a sport and some more like "art", If we look a definition of sport then perhaps every martial arts style goes with that definition?

/Markku P.

 

[Dirty Dog]

What's wrong to be a "sport"? I feel it's pretty useless to draw a line that some martial arts are more as a sport and some more like "art", If we look a definition of sport then perhaps every martial arts style goes with that definition?

/Markku P.

I'd say that any art that includes free sparring has to be considered as having at least some degree of sport-orientation. But it's also true that some arts/schools place more emphasis on sport. And it also seems to be true that there are some that are purely sport, as would be the case of someone being given a dan rank based only on winning a tournament.

The question that arises (quite often...) is should sport-oriented schools stop calling what they teach a martial art, and if so, how much sport orientation can a school have and still be considered a martial art.

Personally, I prefer the non-sporting aspects, but that doesn't mean I don't enjoy some competition.

 

[Cyriacus]

What's wrong to be a "sport"? I feel it's pretty useless to draw a line that some martial arts are more as a sport and some more like "art", If we look a definition of sport then perhaps every martial arts style goes with that definition?

/Markku P.

Its a question of interpritation. Going for a run can be a morning routine, or your career.
Taekwondo can be a Martial Art or a Martial Sport. You decide that.
The problem is when people go looking for one, and find a teacher whos decided theyre going to make it the other.

 

[Gorilla]

Its a question of interpritation. Going for a run can be a morning routine, or your career.
Taekwondo can be a Martial Art or a Martial Sport. You decide that.
The problem is when people go looking for one, and find a teacher whos decided theyre going to make it the other.

I think that you have room to do both but but focus may go one way or the other for certain periods of time and at different points in peoples careers.

 

[Cyriacus]

I think that you have room to do both but but focus may go one way or the other for certain periods of time and at different points in peoples careers.

Of course - But thats option three.
Option 1: Seeking Self Defence.
Option 2: Seeking Sport.
Option 3: Seeking both with an emphasis on one of the two.
Option 4: Seeking both with no emphasis.

But my point is, what about the Dojang that only offer one? Lets turn it around. A Dojang only offers Self Defence themed training. But You want the Sport angle. But it simply isnt available in Your area. Hows that any different?
Then one could say, so they should be teaching both then, shouldnt they.

That, Good Sir, is My point. They should be teaching both. But much like how the Student can decide which they want, or if they want to get both and focus on one, the teachers do the same. So if a teacher chooses to make it all about Self Defence, and You want Sport; Or as it were, makes it all about Sport and You want Self Defence.