Abir Qesheth

[clfsean]

Couldn't you scare the bear off by throwing scalding coffee in his face?

Nah you'd have to develop the ultimate apology (SORRY!!!!) technique after ...

 

[lklawson]

I don't even understand that kind of thing at all. Is there really a market for that? I guess there must be, but that just seems so silly. Like if someone had a Buddhist coffee shop, or a Jewish gas station. Adding religion to things that have nothing to do with religion.

It's actually quite common. The most stark example is that of Sikhism. One of the basic religious Holy Item of Sikh faith is a Kirpan, or a sword. Every devout Sikh has one of some kind. Usually it's a knife, but, when prohibited, they have a "representation" of the sword, such as a sword-shaped amulet.

It's one of the most basic tenants of the Sikh religion; the responsibility to protect the weak and the innocent. The study a "Sikh Martial Art" traditionally (Gatka or Shastar Vidiya, ims) in order to facilitate that holy responsibility and the carrying of the Kirpan allows the to do that; the symbolic representation of the Kirpan reminds them to do that. One of the most famous insults to a Sikh is based around a misunderstanding of the history of their defense of the weak.

Not to be a jerk, but what it boils down to is that just because you don't think that a given concept should be part of religion doesn't particularly mean that adherents of that religion don't.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Touch Of Death]

It's actually quite common. The most stark example is that of Sikhism. One of the basic religious Holy Item of Sikh faith is a Kirpan, or a sword. Every devout Sikh has one of some kind. Usually it's a knife, but, when prohibited, they have a "representation" of the sword, such as a sword-shaped amulet.

It's one of the most basic tenants of the Sikh religion; the responsibility to protect the weak and the innocent. The study a "Sikh Martial Art" traditionally (Gatka or Shastar Vidiya, ims) in order to facilitate that holy responsibility and the carrying of the Kirpan allows the to do that; the symbolic representation of the Kirpan reminds them to do that. One of the most famous insults to a Sikh is based around a misunderstanding of the history of their defense of the weak.

Not to be a jerk, but what it boils down to is that just because you don't think that a given concept should be part of religion doesn't particularly mean that adherents of that religion don't.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

There is kind of a mamby pampy vibe in our society. Did you know, The United States didn't believe in snipers; so, come WWI, we didn't have any. England just turned anti-poaching units into sniper units, but "we" were in big trouble.

 

[elder999]

I don't even understand that kind of thing at all. Is there really a market for that? I guess there must be, but that just seems so silly. Like if someone had a Buddhist coffee shop, or a Jewish gas station. Adding religion to things that have nothing to do with religion.

Funny....considering the history of Buddhist martial arts, Taoist martial arts, even Muslim (Chinese) martial arts.....there's even Christian symbolisms in some European and East-Asian martial arts.....odds are good that most of us on this forum practice a martial art with some religious element in their origins, so:

 

[GiYu - Todd]

Can't. Left hand is evil in the Hebrew/Arabic tradition. :rofl:

No, it's the right hand that turns evil. That's why Ash had to cut it off.

(It's been good knowing you all. I'll likely be banned for segueing from Life of Brian to Army of Darkness. Perhaps I'll be able to stay if I say the magic words: Klaatu Barada um..., Klaatu Barada [Necktie, Nectar, Nickel, Noodle?]...Klaatu Barada N%^#&^. There... I said it!)

 

[WaterGal]

Funny....considering the history of Buddhist martial arts, Taoist martial arts, even Muslim (Chinese) martial arts.....there's even Christian symbolisms in some European and East-Asian martial arts.....odds are good that most of us on this forum practice a martial art with some religious element in their origins, so:

View attachment 19701

I guess I was unclear with my earlier comment. I know that some martial arts have their origins in religious communities or were influenced by spiritual practices. That's not what I'm talking about.

I'm talking about when people take an activity that's either totally secular (see: karate) or has it's origin in the spiritual practice of a totally different religion (see: yoga), and then graft a totally different and very explicit religious element onto it in order to call it "Christian yoga" or "Jewish kung fu" or whatever.

I'm not sure if people do that with the intention to exclude people who practice a different faith or are more secular than them, or if that's just a side-effect, but either way, it seems strange to me that someone would think it was a good business decision to promote their school in such as a way as to tell half their potential students/customers that they're unwelcome. Maybe that's just a cultural difference between the Bible Belt and more cosmopolitan parts of the US, I dunno.

 

[elder999]

I guess I was unclear with my earlier comment. I know that some martial arts have their origins in religious communities or were influenced by spiritual practices. That's not what I'm talking about.

I'm talking about when people take an activity that's either totally secular (see: karate)

Karate, Okinawan karate, has a spiritual element....these elements are reflected in some of the kata patterns. Some of those kata are used by Japanese and Korean styles. So.....no....."see karate" again, because just because you don't see it, doesn't mean it isn't there....

or has it's origin in the spiritual practice of a totally different religion (see: yoga), and then graft a totally different and very explicit religious element onto it in order to call it "Christian yoga" or "Jewish kung fu" or whatever.[/QUOTE

That's called syncretism...almost all religions have syncretic elements.

I mean, the guy's nuttier than a wagonload of pralines, but mixing religions with martial arts-or Pilates, or mixing Pilates with religion, or whatever, is really okay-a little nutty, sometimes, but for some people it works: see Shorinji kempo....

 

[MartialMasters]

I guess I was unclear with my earlier comment. I know that some martial arts have their origins in religious communities or were influenced by spiritual practices. That's not what I'm talking about.

I'm talking about when people take an activity that's either totally secular (see: karate) or has it's origin in the spiritual practice of a totally different religion (see: yoga), and then graft a totally different and very explicit religious element onto it in order to call it "Christian yoga" or "Jewish kung fu" or whatever.

I'm not sure if people do that with the intention to exclude people who practice a different faith or are more secular than them, or if that's just a side-effect, but either way, it seems strange to me that someone would think it was a good business decision to promote their school in such as a way as to tell half their potential students/customers that they're unwelcome. Maybe that's just a cultural difference between the Bible Belt and more cosmopolitan parts of the US, I dunno.

I remember many years ago when I went to a martial art demo in Kyoto (that I was going to participate in). I'd learned my part, was ready to do my thing, and was looking forward to seeing some cool stuff. Then out of nowhere, it began with some incense being burned, and chanting, and people bowing to some little stone figure. And we all had to do this. I had no idea what on Earth was going on, or why this was being done, or what it meant ("Is this some symbolic activity I just don't get? Is this real-life idolatry, which I've only read about in books? Is it just a tradition and I've been left totally in the dark?").

In many places, you just never really know quite what you'll get (that totally blind-sided me, there's an experience I'll never forget!)...or you may have an idea what you might get, and it might not "fit" you very well. Whatever the case, I think to market something as "Christian" (for example) is done more in the interest in opening it up to people who wouldn't otherwise be interested. If anybody wants Buddhist Yoga, well...they can go pretty much anywhere else! Personally, I find the whole idea of Christian Yoga a bit weird. But I think I get why they might want to do it.

If nothing else, at least it gives clarity. No guesswork there! It's a way to say. "Go here, and you can be sure you'll hear about the Triune God instead of the Eightfold Path!"

 

[lklawson]

I'm talking about when people take an activity that's either totally secular (see: karate) or has it's origin in the spiritual practice of a totally different religion (see: yoga), and then graft a totally different and very explicit religious element onto it in order to call it "Christian yoga" or "Jewish kung fu" or whatever.

I'm not sure if people do that with the intention to exclude people who practice a different faith or are more secular than them, or if that's just a side-effect, but either way, it seems strange to me that someone would think it was a good business decision to promote their school in such as a way as to tell half their potential students/customers that they're unwelcome. Maybe that's just a cultural difference between the Bible Belt and more cosmopolitan parts of the US, I dunno.

As we move full bore into the Christmas season, I'm reminded that it is quite common to take symbology or practices from one religion and graft it into another, applying a new religious significance specific for the new host religion to the old practice or symbology.

If you want to get really weird, we can talk about the Triskelion; a Pagan symbol representing (to some) the 3 phases of womanhood, Maid, Mother, Crone; a Christian symbol representing the tripartite Godhead, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost; or a BDSM symbol representing, well, BDSM somehow (I don't get it).

So if we as a global society can "accept" that these things happen, then why not Jewish Kung Fu?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[clfsean]

So if we as a global society can "accept" that these things happen, then why not Jewish Kung Fu?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Well ... Kung Fu isn't a Jewish phrase (Yiddish, Aramaic, Hebrew). It's poorly transliterated Chinese dialects (Mandarin & Cantonese mostly).

It'd be like referring to the Somali Pirates as African Vikings. They're doing the same things as Vikings did, but somehow it doesn't quite work the same.

 

[lklawson]

Well ... Kung Fu isn't a Jewish phrase (Yiddish, Aramaic, Hebrew). It's poorly transliterated Chinese dialects (Mandarin & Cantonese mostly).

It'd be like referring to the Somali Pirates as African Vikings. They're doing the same things as Vikings did, but somehow it doesn't quite work the same.

• Sunday: Old English Sunnandæg (pronounced [ˈsunnɑndæj]), meaning "sun's day." This is a translation of the Latin phrase dies Solis. English, like most of the Germanic languages, preserves the original pagan/sun associations of the day. Many other European languages, including all of the Romance languages, have changed its name to the equivalent of "the Lord's day" (based on Ecclesiastical Latin dies Dominica). In both West Germanic and North Germanic mythology the Sun is personified as a goddess, Sunna/Sól.
• Monday: Old English Mōnandæg (pronounced [ˈmoːnɑndæj]), meaning "Moon's day." This is based on a translation of the Latin name dies lunae. In North Germanic mythology, the Moon is personified as a god, Máni.
• Tuesday: Old English Tīwesdæg (pronounced [ˈtiːwezdæj]), meaning "Tiw's day." Tiw (Norse Týr) was a one-handed god associated with single combat and pledges in Norse mythology and also attested prominently in wider Germanic paganism. The name of the day is based on Latin dies Martis, "Day of Mars".
• Wednesday: Old English Wōdnesdæg (pronounced [ˈwoːdnezdæj]) meaning the day of the Germanic god Wodan (known as Óðinn among the North Germanic peoples), and a prominent god of the Anglo-Saxons (and other Germanic peoples) in England until about the seventh century. It is based on Latin dies Mercurii, "Day of Mercury." The connection between Mercury and Odin is more strained than the other syncretic connections.[citation needed] The usual explanation[who?] is that both Wodan and Mercury were considered psychopomps, or guides of souls after death, in their respective mythologies; both are also associated with poetic and musical inspiration.[citation needed] The Icelandic Miðviku, German Mittwoch, Low German Middeweek and Finnish keskiviikko all mean mid-week.
• Thursday: Old English Þūnresdæg (pronounced [ˈθuːnrezdæj]), meaning 'Þunor's day'. Þunor means thunder or its personification, the Norse god known in Modern English as Thor. Similarly Dutch donderdag, German Donnerstag ('thunder's day'), Finnish torstai, and Scandinavian Torsdag ('Thor's day'). Thor's day corresponds to Latin dies Iovis, "day of Jupiter".
• Friday: Old English Frīgedæg (pronounced [ˈfriːjedæj]), meaning the day of the Anglo-Saxon goddess Fríge. The Norse name for the planet Venus was Friggjarstjarna, 'Frigg's star'. It is based on the Latin dies Veneris, "Day of Venus."
• Saturday: the only day of the week to retain its Roman origin in English, named after the Roman god Saturn associated with the Titan Cronus, father of Zeus and many Olympians. Its original Anglo-Saxon rendering was Sæturnesdæg (pronounced [ˈsæturnezdæj]). In Latin it was dies Saturni, "Day of Saturn." The Scandinavian Lørdag/Lördag deviates significantly as it has no reference to either the Norse or the Roman pantheon; it derives from old Norse laugardagr, literally "washing-day." The German Sonnabend and the Low German words Sünnavend mean "Sunday Eve", the German word Samstag derives from the name for Shabbat.

(reference: wikipedia)

So if it's OK to have semi transliterated names with religious meanings incongruous to the modern religious context, then I'd guess "Jewish Kung Fu" should be OK too.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[clfsean]

• Sunday: Old English Sunnandæg (pronounced [ˈsunnɑndæj]), meaning "sun's day." This is a translation of the Latin phrase dies Solis. English, like most of the Germanic languages, preserves the original pagan/sun associations of the day. Many other European languages, including all of the Romance languages, have changed its name to the equivalent of "the Lord's day" (based on Ecclesiastical Latin dies Dominica). In both West Germanic and North Germanic mythology the Sun is personified as a goddess, Sunna/Sól.
• Monday: Old English Mōnandæg (pronounced [ˈmoːnɑndæj]), meaning "Moon's day." This is based on a translation of the Latin name dies lunae. In North Germanic mythology, the Moon is personified as a god, Máni.
• Tuesday: Old English Tīwesdæg (pronounced [ˈtiːwezdæj]), meaning "Tiw's day." Tiw (Norse Týr) was a one-handed god associated with single combat and pledges in Norse mythology and also attested prominently in wider Germanic paganism. The name of the day is based on Latin dies Martis, "Day of Mars".
• Wednesday: Old English Wōdnesdæg (pronounced [ˈwoːdnezdæj]) meaning the day of the Germanic god Wodan (known as Óðinn among the North Germanic peoples), and a prominent god of the Anglo-Saxons (and other Germanic peoples) in England until about the seventh century. It is based on Latin dies Mercurii, "Day of Mercury." The connection between Mercury and Odin is more strained than the other syncretic connections.[citation needed] The usual explanation[who?] is that both Wodan and Mercury were considered psychopomps, or guides of souls after death, in their respective mythologies; both are also associated with poetic and musical inspiration.[citation needed] The Icelandic Miðviku, German Mittwoch, Low German Middeweek and Finnish keskiviikko all mean mid-week.
• Thursday: Old English Þūnresdæg (pronounced [ˈθuːnrezdæj]), meaning 'Þunor's day'. Þunor means thunder or its personification, the Norse god known in Modern English as Thor. Similarly Dutch donderdag, German Donnerstag ('thunder's day'), Finnish torstai, and Scandinavian Torsdag ('Thor's day'). Thor's day corresponds to Latin dies Iovis, "day of Jupiter".
• Friday: Old English Frīgedæg (pronounced [ˈfriːjedæj]), meaning the day of the Anglo-Saxon goddess Fríge. The Norse name for the planet Venus was Friggjarstjarna, 'Frigg's star'. It is based on the Latin dies Veneris, "Day of Venus."
• Saturday: the only day of the week to retain its Roman origin in English, named after the Roman god Saturn associated with the Titan Cronus, father of Zeus and many Olympians. Its original Anglo-Saxon rendering was Sæturnesdæg (pronounced [ˈsæturnezdæj]). In Latin it was dies Saturni, "Day of Saturn." The Scandinavian Lørdag/Lördag deviates significantly as it has no reference to either the Norse or the Roman pantheon; it derives from old Norse laugardagr, literally "washing-day." The German Sonnabend and the Low German words Sünnavend mean "Sunday Eve", the German word Samstag derives from the name for Shabbat.

(reference: wikipedia)

So if it's OK to have semi transliterated names with religious meanings incongruous to the modern religious context, then I'd guess "Jewish Kung Fu" should be OK too.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Eh Sorry Kirk ... playing hard headed... not Jewish Kung Fu. Not Ever. Much like it was Jewish Hapkido about 10 years ago with Chinese spring steel Dahn Do for his Jewish Sword dance from ancient times where he was the last sole inheritor of an animal based system that helped the Jews defend themselves since Biblical times. Aside from that, Jewish Kung Fu is about as correct as American Karate.

Not buying it ...

 

[elder999]

Jewish Kung Fu is about as correct as American Karate.

Not buying it ..

There are more than a few cases to be made for "American karate" being, at this point, 60-odd years later, several disparate and altogether non-Asian styles: kenpo, American Freestyle Karate, there's even an altogether "American" flavor of kyokushin....for some.

 

[lklawson]

Eh Sorry Kirk ... playing hard headed... not Jewish Kung Fu. Not Ever. Much like it was Jewish Hapkido about 10 years ago

My point is, that it's just words and "Loan Words" happen all the time for numerous reasons. If they didn't then I would be eating "cow" not "beef" (blasted frenchies!).

with Chinese spring steel Dahn Do for his Jewish Sword dance from ancient times where he was the last sole inheritor of an animal based system that helped the Jews defend themselves since Biblical times.

Yeah. I ain't buying that either.

Aside from that, Jewish Kung Fu is about as correct as American Karate.

Not buying it ...

Loan words. In the case of "American Karate" it's applying a word (karate) that people are familiar with to communicate the concept of what is being taught in the context of "American." In that regard, it accurately and clearly communicates the concept that what is being taught is either an "American" based fighting system, similar conceptually to karate, or that it is "traditional" karate which has been modified in some way to make it "American."

That's just how language works. That's why I eat "pork" not "hog."

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Touch Of Death]

As we move full bore into the Christmas season, I'm reminded that it is quite common to take symbology or practices from one religion and graft it into another, applying a new religious significance specific for the new host religion to the old practice or symbology.

If you want to get really weird, we can talk about the Triskelion; a Pagan symbol representing (to some) the 3 phases of womanhood, Maid, Mother, Crone; a Christian symbol representing the tripartite Godhead, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost; or a BDSM symbol representing, well, BDSM somehow (I don't get it).

So if we as a global society can "accept" that these things happen, then why not Jewish Kung Fu?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Ya know, the whole magic mirror on the wall, was a Macedonian / khazar story, about how the magic mirror reveals "your mother" to you more and more everyday. It kept you humble. LOL