A Uniquely Early 21st Century Crime - What Would You Do?

rompida said:
screw that - my first shot would be in the air. Whoever is still in my house after that is fair game. I am a firm believer in the castle doctrine.
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I'd prefer not to blow a hole in my roof. :)
 
upnorthkyosa said:
I would fire from cover in a tactical position that would make it very difficult for a mob to assail me. If I were armed in such a way and I felt threatened or felt motivated by such law, I would look for a place that I would have the maximum effect on killing my fellow townspeople.

Of course, then I may have to deal with the retribution. Whose brother, mother, father, sister, did I just knock down to protect my stupid ****? Is Their life worth more then my property?

If your little sister thought that my TV was fair game because of something she, naively, read on the internet and I blew her brains out, would you feel a little miffed?

This is how the blood fueds get going in places like Afghanistan and Iraq.
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They should be asking THEMSELVES 'Is MY life worth worth HIS property'.....not vice versa.

If my ADULT little sister was stupid enough to believe that an internet ad justified HOME INVASION she'd get a Darwin Award nomination! There's no justification for 'STUPID'!

I've always been that way.....I had three acquaintances growing up who committed a string of home burglaries....they stole several items including a few guns......while driving away from the scene a Missouri State Highway Patrol trooper pulled them over, and one of the guys got out with a gun.....the trooper shot him DEAD RIGHT THERE!

Now, several of my teenage friends at the time were OUTRAGED 'That cop shot him for no reason!'......I was a teenager too, but not only did I figure HE deserved it for pulling the gun, the other two deserved it for BURGLARIZING HOUSES! I made myself very popular in my circle by stating that very thing! I even got in a fist fight with the dead guys brother when he started spouting off that he wished he could kill the trooper that killed his brother.....and I told him if his brother wasn't a thieving moron with two other thieving morons he wouldn't be DEAD....and that it was just as well!
 
sgtmac_46 said:
Also, since the cops where I live are my co-workers, and those who will be responding to my house know where I live, they know who's side their own when they show up. ;)
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Well, the certainly helps. But, lets say, you and your posse shows up and I've got nine people dead inside my home. They were trying to take my stuff so I went through the house and shotgunned every man, woman, and child (under 18) to death.

I sense a cavalier attitude that doesnt mesh well with the current legal system...
 
upnorthkyosa said:
Well, the certainly helps. But, lets say, you and your posse shows up and I've got nine people dead inside my home. They were trying to take my stuff so I went through the house and shotgunned every man, woman, and child (under 18) to death.

I sense a cavalier attitude that doesnt mesh well with the current legal system...
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All of that would be perfectly legal per Missouri law......in fact the NUMBERS would MORE justify lethal force than ONE person in your home.

A person may use LETHAL FORCE in Missouri, per 563.031 Rsmo....IF

(1) He or she reasonably believes that such deadly force is necessary to protect himself or herself or another against death, serious physical injury, or any forcible felony; or

(2) Such force is used against a person who unlawfully enters, remains after unlawfully entering, or attempts to unlawfully enter a dwelling, residence, or vehicle lawfully occupied by such person.

3. A person does not have a duty to retreat from a dwelling, residence, or vehicle where the person is not unlawfully entering or unlawfully remaining.

http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/c500-599/5630000031.htm
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In OTHER WORDS.....the very ACT of entering, remaining after unlawfully entering, or attempting to unlawfully enter your home OR vehicle that you are currently occupying JUSTIFIES lethal force without ANY duty on your part to attempt any kind of retreat.....there it is in black and white.

The cited situation that started this thread fits THAT to a 'T'.

Now, i'm not telling you what you SHOULD do.....but i'm telling you what the laws of the State of Missouri ALLOW to be done.
 
Let me say that, upon further review, my last couple of posts may seem a little flippant.....I can understand that interpretation. But I feel very STRONGLY about people to be secure in their homes and property from outside threats EVEN to the point of lethal force to ENSURE that safety and security! I very much view someone's home as their Castle, and strongly believe that the state should give GREAT latitude to individuals in defense of their Castle....that is merely their point.

If I put too fine of a point on that, or was a bit more coarse in presentation than I intended, my apologies......I sometimes have a tendency to be a bit too forceful in my presentation.
 
upnorthkyosa said:
Of course, then I may have to deal with the retribution. Whose brother, mother, father, sister, did I just knock down to protect my stupid ****? Is Their life worth more then my property?

If your little sister thought that my TV was fair game because of something she, naively, read on the internet and I blew her brains out, would you feel a little miffed?

This is how the blood fueds get going in places like Afghanistan and Iraq.
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Everyone is someone's son, daughter, sister, brother, mother or father. Once they break into my house to steal things they add the new title "thief". I understand that people can be stupid. That's why I would do my best to tell them "You've been duped. This is my house. This is my stuff. Put it down."

But there comes a time when you can't protect people from their own folly.

There is nothing in my house that is worth anyone's life. That's what they should consider when they come to steal. And that's why they should stop stealing when it's brought to their attention. It represents thousands of hours of work and not a few irreplaceable personal memories on my part.

Getting to a safe place and calling the police means that my house will be stripped bare. I will not recover any of my property. And there will be quite a few armed criminals running around because I sat and did nothing.

Sgt Mac, it must be good to be above the law. "They work with me. I have nothing to fear from them." You've very nicely proved my point about the police. Good or bad, fair or foul, you're one of their homies. So you can get away with all sorts of things in your private life that the rest of us would risk jail for. And that is why most people fear rather than trust cops in general.
 
I would have a hard time killing someone over my good china. Especially in a situation where it may all be a misunderstanding. Threaten my son, my daughter, or my wife and its open season on humans.

That said, I think that anybody should have the right to defend their property if they so wish. If I woke up in the middle of the night and someone had broken down my door and was going through my possessions, I'm not going to assume anything other then they mean me and my own harm.

As far as the police situation goes, I sure hope they would treat me fairly, according to the law, when they came upon the situation.
 
Oh, it's not bravado. And I would really, really prefer to have a reasonable alternative. But a lot of my savings and all of my family is in that house. I can't afford to just watch it all go away. And if someone won't stop once he's been informed that it's my property and has seen that I'm armed, well, I just can't see much distance between "Let it all go" and "Stop them".

If it were just one or two I might be able to restrain and reason. Thirty or forty looters with serious groupthink going? I don't think so.
 
tellner said:
Oh, it's not bravado. And I would really, really prefer to have a reasonable alternative. But a lot of my savings and all of my family is in that house. I can't afford to just watch it all go away. And if someone won't stop once he's been informed that it's my property and has seen that I'm armed, well, I just can't see much distance between "Let it all go" and "Stop them".

If it were just one or two I might be able to restrain and reason. Thirty or forty looters with serious groupthink going? I don't think so.
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I see your point, yet I still must questions, from an ethical position, if any material possessions are worth someone's life. I don't want to make that judgement for anyone. I believe that people should have the freedom to make that judgement if they wish. However, personally, I don't think I could shoot someone over my cheap, made in china, planned obsolesent possessions.

Mobs are a different story. That can get dangerous very quick. I hope I never see this in my life, but if I did, I may very well resort to deadly force, if the law was on my side.
 
rompida said:
screw that - my first shot would be in the air. Whoever is still in my house after that is fair game. I am a firm believer in the castle doctrine.
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Warning shots are unwise -- especially into the air. We'd call it "reckless discharge of a firearm" and you'd end up with a class 1 misdemeanor and a free trip to the jail.

If your going to draw on someone, be ready to shoot that person then and there. Or leave the gun in the holster.

Personally, if I walked into a scenario like that -- I'd almost certainly be drawing my gun, and ordering everyone to the ground. There are too many folks, and I don't know who may or may not be armed. I'm not waiting till someone moves agressively to be ready to act -- but I'm not firing a shot until someone moves aggressively, either. And, as soon as the situation permitted, I'd be dialing 911, and letting them know what's up.
 
MJS said:
Hmm..what would I do? Well, after getting over the initial shock of seeing what was going on, the first thing I'd do is call the police. I really don't think that just by showing a copy of the craigslist ad, that that would be enough proof, for someone to go thru my house. I don't feel that an ad is a legal document. I would demand proof that it was I that actually put the ad online in the first place.

As Andy said...how was access to the house gained? Kicking in the door? Through a window? I'm sorry, but if something was free, it would be easily accessable. Basically as far as I'm concerned, these people have broken into a house and are guilty of B&E as he said.

And who in their right mind would actually think that there was nothing odd about an ad like this. An entire house up for first come first serve? Then again, there're alot of stupid people out there, so anything is possible.

I'm sorry, but I don't feel that I should have to accept anything. I'm not going to just stand by and watch people enter/exit my house with my property, without doing something. If that means fighting with the person or using force to keep my belongings, then so be it.
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My thoughts exactly, I'll be darned if I just stand there, sure I'll have some call the cops or I will, but after that call, I'm going to go and stop that nonsense one way or another.
 
kenpotex said:
AFAIC, that's the question they should be asking.
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I agree. However, I also know that if I kill someone, I get to live with that for the rest of my life. I've never had to do this...and I am glad of that fact. However, I have had several family members who have taken other people's lives in battle or in the line of duty and with every single person, whether the cause was warrented or not, the toll was great.

With that being said, I think that this is also something that anybody who is serious about self defense should think about. When would you take another person's life? The law will determine when this is appropriate in most cases, but sometimes there are fuzzy lines.

I guess this goes to show just how important it is to be crystal clear regarding the laws for self defense in your area.
 
tellner said:
Sgt Mac, it must be good to be above the law. "They work with me. I have nothing to fear from them." You've very nicely proved my point about the police. Good or bad, fair or foul, you're one of their homies. So you can get away with all sorts of things in your private life that the rest of us would risk jail for. And that is why most people fear rather than trust cops in general.
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Really....is THAT what you read? Because that's certainly not what I typed....have you got an issue with me? Or just cops in general?

Because what I TYPED was a response that he said 'What if the cops show up'.....I just happen to KNOW them and they KNOW where I live! How does that make me 'above the law'? ALL I SAID was that if the local cops show up

1) THEY KNOW ME ON SIGHT
2) THEY KNOW THAT'S MY HOUSE!
ergo
3) Anyone ELSE ON MY PROPERTY ENGAGING IN A GUN BATTLE WITH ME IS THE BAD GUY!

It seems as though you are projecting some animosity on me for some reason, and i'm really not appreciative of you mischaracterizing my statements as a result of it.

NOTHING I claimed I would do in that situation is ANY DIFFERENT than the what the law of the STATE OF MISSOURI allows any other private citizen....I NEVER claimed, as you assert, that i'm ABOVE THE LAW or that in private I CLAIM SPECIAL PRIVELEGES you do not HAVE! If you believe that I have said that, then I believe what is at issue is your reading comprehension abilities, not my statements, sir!


What I find HUMOROUSLY ironic is that, after chastising me for 'thinking I as above the law', you then go on and prescribe the VERY SAME ACTION you claimed I was above the law for prescribing!

It seems you're attempting to paint me as some sort of 'elitist thug cop'......and that's IRONICALLY offensive in that i'm one the BIGGEST advocates of the rights of private citizens to defend themselves and their property that YOU WILL EVER MEET! I support CCW laws and national reciprocity for those laws because I believe that law enforcement isn't the only category of people who should be able to carry a gun to defend themselves!
 
upnorthkyosa said:
I see your point, yet I still must questions, from an ethical position, if any material possessions are worth someone's life. I don't want to make that judgement for anyone. I believe that people should have the freedom to make that judgement if they wish. However, personally, I don't think I could shoot someone over my cheap, made in china, planned obsolesent possessions.

Mobs are a different story. That can get dangerous very quick. I hope I never see this in my life, but if I did, I may very well resort to deadly force, if the law was on my side.
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That is a question each BURGLAR MUST ask themselves.....'is STEALING property worth my life?'

I can't make the decisions for them.
 
To nobody's great surprise it looks like this was a burglary coverup from the beginning.

Police searched a computer that they owned and found evidence that linked them to the case, according to Sheriff Mike Winters with the Jackson County Sheriff's Office.



He said the couple had stolen saddles and other items from a garage on the Jacksonville property a few days earlier and created the Craigslist posting on March 22 as an elaborate plan to cover up their crime.
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