sgtmac_46
Senior Master
I'd prefer not to blow a hole in my roof.
A Uniquely Early 21st Century Crime - What Would You Do?
- Thread starter tellner
- Start date
sgtmac_46
Senior Master
They should be asking THEMSELVES 'Is MY life worth worth HIS property'.....not vice versa.
If my ADULT little sister was stupid enough to believe that an internet ad justified HOME INVASION she'd get a Darwin Award nomination! There's no justification for 'STUPID'!
I've always been that way.....I had three acquaintances growing up who committed a string of home burglaries....they stole several items including a few guns......while driving away from the scene a Missouri State Highway Patrol trooper pulled them over, and one of the guys got out with a gun.....the trooper shot him DEAD RIGHT THERE!
Now, several of my teenage friends at the time were OUTRAGED 'That cop shot him for no reason!'......I was a teenager too, but not only did I figure HE deserved it for pulling the gun, the other two deserved it for BURGLARIZING HOUSES! I made myself very popular in my circle by stating that very thing! I even got in a fist fight with the dead guys brother when he started spouting off that he wished he could kill the trooper that killed his brother.....and I told him if his brother wasn't a thieving moron with two other thieving morons he wouldn't be DEAD....and that it was just as well!
Also, since the cops where I live are my co-workers, and those who will be responding to my house know where I live, they know who's side their own when they show up.
Well, the certainly helps. But, lets say, you and your posse shows up and I've got nine people dead inside my home. They were trying to take my stuff so I went through the house and shotgunned every man, woman, and child (under 18) to death.
I sense a cavalier attitude that doesnt mesh well with the current legal system...
sgtmac_46
Senior Master
All of that would be perfectly legal per Missouri law......in fact the NUMBERS would MORE justify lethal force than ONE person in your home.
A person may use LETHAL FORCE in Missouri, per 563.031 Rsmo....IF
In OTHER WORDS.....the very ACT of entering, remaining after unlawfully entering, or attempting to unlawfully enter your home OR vehicle that you are currently occupying JUSTIFIES lethal force without ANY duty on your part to attempt any kind of retreat.....there it is in black and white.
The cited situation that started this thread fits THAT to a 'T'.
Now, i'm not telling you what you SHOULD do.....but i'm telling you what the laws of the State of Missouri ALLOW to be done.
sgtmac_46
Senior Master
Let me say that, upon further review, my last couple of posts may seem a little flippant.....I can understand that interpretation. But I feel very STRONGLY about people to be secure in their homes and property from outside threats EVEN to the point of lethal force to ENSURE that safety and security! I very much view someone's home as their Castle, and strongly believe that the state should give GREAT latitude to individuals in defense of their Castle....that is merely their point.
If I put too fine of a point on that, or was a bit more coarse in presentation than I intended, my apologies......I sometimes have a tendency to be a bit too forceful in my presentation.
If I put too fine of a point on that, or was a bit more coarse in presentation than I intended, my apologies......I sometimes have a tendency to be a bit too forceful in my presentation.
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tellner
Senior Master
Everyone is someone's son, daughter, sister, brother, mother or father. Once they break into my house to steal things they add the new title "thief". I understand that people can be stupid. That's why I would do my best to tell them "You've been duped. This is my house. This is my stuff. Put it down."
But there comes a time when you can't protect people from their own folly.
There is nothing in my house that is worth anyone's life. That's what they should consider when they come to steal. And that's why they should stop stealing when it's brought to their attention. It represents thousands of hours of work and not a few irreplaceable personal memories on my part.
Getting to a safe place and calling the police means that my house will be stripped bare. I will not recover any of my property. And there will be quite a few armed criminals running around because I sat and did nothing.
Sgt Mac, it must be good to be above the law. "They work with me. I have nothing to fear from them." You've very nicely proved my point about the police. Good or bad, fair or foul, you're one of their homies. So you can get away with all sorts of things in your private life that the rest of us would risk jail for. And that is why most people fear rather than trust cops in general.
I would have a hard time killing someone over my good china. Especially in a situation where it may all be a misunderstanding. Threaten my son, my daughter, or my wife and its open season on humans.
That said, I think that anybody should have the right to defend their property if they so wish. If I woke up in the middle of the night and someone had broken down my door and was going through my possessions, I'm not going to assume anything other then they mean me and my own harm.
As far as the police situation goes, I sure hope they would treat me fairly, according to the law, when they came upon the situation.
That said, I think that anybody should have the right to defend their property if they so wish. If I woke up in the middle of the night and someone had broken down my door and was going through my possessions, I'm not going to assume anything other then they mean me and my own harm.
As far as the police situation goes, I sure hope they would treat me fairly, according to the law, when they came upon the situation.
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tellner
Senior Master
Oh, it's not bravado. And I would really, really prefer to have a reasonable alternative. But a lot of my savings and all of my family is in that house. I can't afford to just watch it all go away. And if someone won't stop once he's been informed that it's my property and has seen that I'm armed, well, I just can't see much distance between "Let it all go" and "Stop them".
If it were just one or two I might be able to restrain and reason. Thirty or forty looters with serious groupthink going? I don't think so.
If it were just one or two I might be able to restrain and reason. Thirty or forty looters with serious groupthink going? I don't think so.
I see your point, yet I still must questions, from an ethical position, if any material possessions are worth someone's life. I don't want to make that judgement for anyone. I believe that people should have the freedom to make that judgement if they wish. However, personally, I don't think I could shoot someone over my cheap, made in china, planned obsolesent possessions.
Mobs are a different story. That can get dangerous very quick. I hope I never see this in my life, but if I did, I may very well resort to deadly force, if the law was on my side.
Warning shots are unwise -- especially into the air. We'd call it "reckless discharge of a firearm" and you'd end up with a class 1 misdemeanor and a free trip to the jail.
If your going to draw on someone, be ready to shoot that person then and there. Or leave the gun in the holster.
Personally, if I walked into a scenario like that -- I'd almost certainly be drawing my gun, and ordering everyone to the ground. There are too many folks, and I don't know who may or may not be armed. I'm not waiting till someone moves agressively to be ready to act -- but I'm not firing a shot until someone moves aggressively, either. And, as soon as the situation permitted, I'd be dialing 911, and letting them know what's up.
KenpoTex
Senior Master
AFAIC, that's the question they should be asking.
It's interesting that though we've had several people sound off with different viewpoints the original question of how was access gained to the house remains unanswered....?
I agree. However, I also know that if I kill someone, I get to live with that for the rest of my life. I've never had to do this...and I am glad of that fact. However, I have had several family members who have taken other people's lives in battle or in the line of duty and with every single person, whether the cause was warrented or not, the toll was great.
With that being said, I think that this is also something that anybody who is serious about self defense should think about. When would you take another person's life? The law will determine when this is appropriate in most cases, but sometimes there are fuzzy lines.
I guess this goes to show just how important it is to be crystal clear regarding the laws for self defense in your area.
sgtmac_46
Senior Master
Really....is THAT what you read? Because that's certainly not what I typed....have you got an issue with me? Or just cops in general?
Because what I TYPED was a response that he said 'What if the cops show up'.....I just happen to KNOW them and they KNOW where I live! How does that make me 'above the law'? ALL I SAID was that if the local cops show up
1) THEY KNOW ME ON SIGHT
2) THEY KNOW THAT'S MY HOUSE!
ergo
3) Anyone ELSE ON MY PROPERTY ENGAGING IN A GUN BATTLE WITH ME IS THE BAD GUY!
It seems as though you are projecting some animosity on me for some reason, and i'm really not appreciative of you mischaracterizing my statements as a result of it.
NOTHING I claimed I would do in that situation is ANY DIFFERENT than the what the law of the STATE OF MISSOURI allows any other private citizen....I NEVER claimed, as you assert, that i'm ABOVE THE LAW or that in private I CLAIM SPECIAL PRIVELEGES you do not HAVE! If you believe that I have said that, then I believe what is at issue is your reading comprehension abilities, not my statements, sir!
What I find HUMOROUSLY ironic is that, after chastising me for 'thinking I as above the law', you then go on and prescribe the VERY SAME ACTION you claimed I was above the law for prescribing!
It seems you're attempting to paint me as some sort of 'elitist thug cop'......and that's IRONICALLY offensive in that i'm one the BIGGEST advocates of the rights of private citizens to defend themselves and their property that YOU WILL EVER MEET! I support CCW laws and national reciprocity for those laws because I believe that law enforcement isn't the only category of people who should be able to carry a gun to defend themselves!
sgtmac_46
Senior Master
That is a question each BURGLAR MUST ask themselves.....'is STEALING property worth my life?'
I can't make the decisions for them.
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tellner
Senior Master
sgtmac_46
Senior Master
I am Jack's complete lack of surprise.
I am Jack's coffee spraying over my computer screen!
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