A Uniform Should Be Just That?

[dancingalone]

Nobody is saying you cant.

To be clear, Steve asserted that TKD schools wearing a flag patch on their uniforms do not fall under the patriotic organization exemption and therefore is a violation of the code governing flag display, etc. He IS saying that people can't, though to be sure no one will be fined or go to prison for it.

I don't have a vested stake in it and I'd be OK either way if someone can put forth a stronger argument, but I do need more solid documentation before I'll be convinced that any martial arts group is doing anything 'wrong' here.

Why is it so hard to find a definition of patriotic organization as it applies here to the flag code? Perhaps the writers of the law wisely knew it was a can of worms and elected to leave it vague on purpose.

Either way, just show me.

 

[Steve]

What defines an organization as being a Patriotic Organization?
What defines one as being Patriotic? If one is patriotic of ideals and does patriotic actions is one not patriotic?
If an individual performs actions for the government and is paid for such is that individual a patriot and is being patriotic? Is that person's organization a Patriotic Organization?

A list of patriotic organizations under Title 36 of the US Code:
36 U.S. Code Part B - Organizations LII Legal Information Institute
Easier to read in the above link, but if you want the source on a .gov website, you can find it all here:
OLRC Home

I really hope this helps you guys understand that your school may BE patriotic, but that doesn't make it a "patriotic organization." If you are choosing to wear the flag patch, great. So be it. But, at least you'll know that there are people who will think it's a little tacky.

Edit: I think the issue confusion is that we were looking for a definition. When I searched for a list, I pretty quickly found my way into the US Code. There isn't so much a definition, it seems, as there is the application for and granting of a charter. If you apply, and are granted a charter, your organization would be included under this particular section of the US Code.

 

[IcemanSK]

In my dojang, and in my organization, our dobok look a certain way (ie. certain patches in certain places). I make it clear that more patches (or a different color dobok are not acceptable, here). I tend to be a minimalist when it comes to patches & rank stripes for myself. I usually wear plain dobok & a belt without rank stripes for every day use, and save my "dress dobok and dress belt" for special occasions.

 

[dancingalone]

A list of patriotic organizations under Title 36 of the US Code:
36 U.S. Code Part B - Organizations LII Legal Information Institute
Easier to read in the above link, but if you want the source on a .gov website, you can find it all here:
OLRC Home

I don't think that clarifies much here, Steve. As I understand it, Title 36 orgs are just groups that Congress generally wanted to give a public show of support for. They are an artifact essentially. Congress hasn't issued a new charter since 1992 and there's actually a Judiciary Committee moratorium on awarding charters, a practice that has been in effect across multiple Congresses now that have been controlled by both main political parties. Part of the reason for the moratorium was due to controversy arising from the exclusionary membership policies practiced by some of the Title 36 organizations as well as a desire to not mislead the public into thinking that there was any significant review and oversight by Congress over these groups.

In any case, you (or someone else) would have to show me language that a patriotic organization as referenced in P.L. 94-344 specifically and only means those given Congressional charters under Title 36. I question that linkage exists but if it's there, you'd be right of course.

I really hope this helps you guys understand that your school may BE patriotic, but that doesn't make it a "patriotic organization." If you are choosing to wear the flag patch, great. So be it. But, at least you'll know that there are people who will think it's a little tacky.

You thinking it tacky is one thing. That's personal opinion and you're entitled to have one. Saying that others are in violation of the US flag code is another. You need more than personal opinion for that.

 

[Steve]

Lol. As gold member said to Austin powers, "there is no pleasing you."

 

[dancingalone]

Lol. As gold member said to Austin powers, "there is no pleasing you."

Heh.

I suspect you can't please me because you're wrong on this. No biggie. It's hardly important, and I'll still respect you in the morning.

 

[Earl Weiss]

The American legion, the vfw, the American Red Cross, Kim's tkd. One of these things is not like the others.

Well, the American Red Cross serves those in need. Never thought it was patriotic.

 

[Steve]

Well, the American Red Cross serves those in need. Never thought it was patriotic.

You're right. Once I found the official list of "Patriotic Organizations," it isn't on there. National Ski Patrol is, which is kind of cool.

 

[Steve]

I don't think that clarifies much here, Steve. As I understand it, Title 36 orgs are just groups that Congress generally wanted to give a public show of support for. They are an artifact essentially. Congress hasn't issued a new charter since 1992 and there's actually a Judiciary Committee moratorium on awarding charters, a practice that has been in effect across multiple Congresses now that have been controlled by both main political parties. Part of the reason for the moratorium was due to controversy arising from the exclusionary membership policies practiced by some of the Title 36 organizations as well as a desire to not mislead the public into thinking that there was any significant review and oversight by Congress over these groups.

In any case, you (or someone else) would have to show me language that a patriotic organization as referenced in P.L. 94-344 specifically and only means those given Congressional charters under Title 36. I question that linkage exists but if it's there, you'd be right of course.



You thinking it tacky is one thing. That's personal opinion and you're entitled to have one. Saying that others are in violation of the US flag code is another. You need more than personal opinion for that.

I'll just correct some minor misinformation above, and then I promise I will step down off this dreaded soap box!

I have really appreciated the prodding to question some of the things that I've long believed, and to dig deeper into flag etiquette and the various and sundry traditions we have in the good old USofA.

The wiki page says that congress stopped in 1992, but this is actually incorrect. Congress does in fact continue to grant charters under Title 36. I found a few organizations that have been acknowledged as "patriotic organizations" within the last 10 years. The most recent example I found in my limited time was in 2009. Public Law 111-95, where they acknowledged the Military Officers Association of America. http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/PLAW-111publ95/pdf/PLAW-111publ95.pdf

Regarding the linkage, I really, genuinely don't kow what more I could give you.

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

Back to the question, the conversation has been more focussed on how much is allowed on the dobok. To me the frustrating part is the opposite: most schools I've seen don't allow plain doboks. I personally hate when schools require a dobok with their name on it. I'd rather be able to wear any plain dobok that not only feels good, but also lets me use the dobok if I move.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Back to the question, the conversation has been more focussed on how much is allowed on the dobok. To me the frustrating part is the opposite: most schools I've seen don't allow plain doboks. I personally hate when schools require a dobok with their name on it. I'd rather be able to wear any plain dobok that not only feels good, but also lets me use the dobok if I move.

I can understand this view. I said in my reply that we give students a Moo Duk Kwan patch. I didn't mention that we do not require them to wear it. Most do, but there are a couple who have never put them on. No problem.

 

[Hyoho]

In Japan everything is a uniform. Maybe better to say 'appropriate clothing'. We work and wear a suit. If its casual get together jeans and a a polo shirt. Like Budo its a community effort and spirit. No one one wants to stand out. One teacher once complained and was very embarrassed because he had to wear a white keikogi with an indigo hakama. His others were in the wash. We dress alike but by the same token when a Nanadan/Hachidan walks into a dojo his dress although the same is immaculate. We stand out in performance and technique, not by clothing. As usual its foreign countries copying Japanese clothing but never getting the full meaning of why its worn. there is always somebody that has to be different and change things. Adapt because they cant do the original.

 

[Steve]

In Japan everything is a uniform. Maybe better to say 'appropriate clothing'. We work and wear a suit. If its casual get together jeans and a a polo shirt. Like Budo its a community effort and spirit. No one one wants to stand out. One teacher once complained and was very embarrassed because he had to wear a white keikogi with an indigo hakama. His others were in the wash. We dress alike but by the same token when a Nanadan/Hachidan walks into a dojo his dress although the same is immaculate. We stand out in performance and technique, not by clothing. As usual its foreign countries copying Japanese clothing but never getting the full meaning of why its worn. there is always somebody that has to be different and change things. Adapt because they cant do the original.

Do you have in mind the Koreans, the Brits, the Americans, the Australians or just everyone when you say "foreign countries?" Just wondering how wide you're casting the net.

 

[Hyoho]

Do you have in mind the Koreans, the Brits, the Americans, the Australians or just everyone when you say "foreign countries?" Just wondering how wide you're casting the net.

Korea has its own clothing taken from national dress. The belt system was devised by Kano Jigoro

 

[Gnarlie]

Thank you all for your responses so far. What triggered the thread was I keep seeing Geup and Dan grades with ever more elaborate belt embroidery, and more and more flags, badges and paraphernalia are appearing that make the uniform less, well, uniform.

Our schools are multinational and personally, I find it rather agreeable that although we are many nationalities from many different cultures, we come together, dress the same, do the same, and learn the same things about ourselves and each other. We find out how much we have in common, instead of focusing on the factors that make us different. I love the humanity of that.

Within that context, I think it's a shame when that commonality is lost for the sake of a few vanity stripes, or some fancy gold lettering.

I must be honest here and say that I have debated the relative merits of a British flag on my dobok next to the german and korean ones. But it might be too much. I feel that Taekwondo is more about being aware of one's humanity than one's individuality. Extraordinary expression of individuality reflects ego, which from a philosophical perspective we should be detaching ourselves from.

With regard to the electrical tape question, was just wondering! We used to use ribbon and have the student sew it onto the belt. More work for them but engenders some respect for the new grade, especially when kids do the sewing themselves!

 

[Gnarlie]

Also, from this thread:

I learned that I have a lot in common with Truejim, it sounds like we have a very similar training situation.

I learned a lot about the American flag and how important it is to you guys. Wow!

Also, I'd like to as Manny what the alternative to electrical tape is?

There were also some things here relating to uniform colour and design that I never would have considered in a million years, so thanks for that!

 

[Tez3]

One should as many thick patches sewn all over your uniform as possible, layered even, it would work like a body protector! ( actually instead of that there's some very nice specially made padded 'underwear' one can use)

Seriously though, we use electrical tape on our children's belts because we are a club not a business so we can't afford to buy new belts every time. We charge only a couple of pounds for grading so it's affordable for as many as possible and the belts are swapped rather than kept. Some children like to keep their belts so we let them and just have to absorb the cost.

 

[Hyoho]

I think wearing a national flag on ones uniform denotes you are on the national team?

 

[Dirty Dog]

I think wearing a national flag on ones uniform denotes you are on the national team?

I don't know about where you are, but in the USA, any citizen is entitled to display the national flag.

 

[Buka]

What an interesting thread.

Steve, thanks for including the info about the flag patch. I had completely forgotten all about that. Some of us have been wearing them for forty years, which was a decade before I learned they were a breach of etiquette. I've since forgotten. I need to inform my students of this. Some wear them, some do not. They are allowed, but not mandatory.
I'm surprised you seem to have gotten resistance from posting the info. I thought it was great, again, thanks.

We originally put them on our uniforms because we were students of American Karate. As a police officer I had one on my sleeve from my entire career. There's an American flag at the front of the dojo, always has been. Fought on a U.S team back in the day, overseas. We wore those full American flag gis. Wallace was on the team as well, as a fighter/coach. The gis first showed up in 74, when the PKA broadcast their championships on American network television.
I never liked those damn gis - didn't like the fit of the pants at all. They were low riders, don't know if they still are, or if they're even made anymore. They looked kinda cool, though. At least at the time.

As for patches, one of my gis has four. The school patch, the flag, the patch of one of my student's school and a patch of a Ju-jitsu organization I'm part of. My other gi tops have two, school and flag. If a student wants to wear a patch from another organization that has been part of his life, that's fine with me. I appreciate his respect for those that helped him on his journey and like the fact he honors them.

I will always wear a flag patch on my gi, despite the breach of etiquette. It traces back to my youth, we used to stick American Flag decals on every damn thing. It was big back in the fifties, which was only a decade after WW2. Besides, being an old guy, I love my country and hate it's government. The patch is a gentle form of rabble rousing to me.

As for uniforms, we wear black ones. You can also wear white when you make green belt, or mix and match. If you make black belt you can wear whatever you want. Like below. (My black belts from a dozen years ago). A motley group if there ever was one. But all ladies and gentleman.