A question for those who teach

[Gemini]

Have you found it more effective to teach a single drill over and over until a student understands and can execute it before moving on or teaching an entire regime and let students pick up parts of it at their own pace?

It seems to me teaching a single technique or drill repeatedly would be the correct answer, but knowing that students tend to get bored and/or frustrated and just end up quitting is often the result.

Teaching an entire set of moves over a longer period of time allows for more variety in learning, but takes much longer for a student to pick up any one thing very quickly.

Seeing that there are positives and negatives to both methods, what works for you and why?

Thank you.

 

[terryl965]

We start out teaching the single techniques and if they are having trouble we just add on and to my amazement it works really well for us.

Also bringing drills together helps the student focus better at times.
terry

 

[TigerWoman]

I'm not an experienced teacher by any means, I just know how it worked for me and hopefully try to make it better for newbies.

Most of my frustration was in sparring as I was just thrown in it without many tools nor an idea to do what, when. So, when I got a new "sparring and kickboxing" community ed class, I decided to do it incrementally learning basic technique-punching, front, round, side, spin side kicks. We used the standup bags to learn punching, kicking for awhile. Then they did two partner kicking attack/defense response on the bags. This went on and I taught them different techniques to move back, diagonally, switching stances and to look for which arm, leg is attacking determines defense. After a few of those, we put chest gear on, with no head shots and just touching at most, sliding around the opponent. After that we put head gear on and they hit a little harder and used some crescents as the women I was teaching were pretty flexible. Then we went to free sparring moving around the ring more. The students I had were in their twenties and were picking it up pretty fast plus they loved it. They were just scheduled for one class but I taught an additional class and they came. From this basis, I think they could start to learn other technique on a weekly basis and start putting it in the mix. Anyway this is the way I would have preferred to learn sparring rather than pick up bits and pieces.

Drills are fine but do not need to be so long, can be more varied, but over different days in succession so that it is ingrained more. It think this all takes some planning and of course, dedicated students who come regularly. TW

 

[Makalakumu]

Check out this site on the Five E's and Constructivism. This can be applied to the martial arts. For example, I could use this to teach inside outside block and the bunkai attached to that movement. The five E's are engage, explore, explain, extend, and evaluate.

Engage - I would demonstrate some cool looking applications in order to get the students interest.
Explore - I would ask the students, "what do these movements have in common?" The following discussion would be meaningful and I would guide the discussion with pointed comments.
Explain - This is the part of the process where the teacher would show the technique and work its basic movements and stances.
Extend - I would ask the students to take the movement and practice a technique with a partner that fits their body type and effectively defends against an attack.
Evaluate - I would walk around to the various groups and monitor/adjust what they were doing in order to help them refine what they are doing.

Depending on how much time one has in class, one could spend two minutes engaging the students. Three minutes exploring the concept. Twenty minutes explaining the technique. Twenty minutes exploring the various options. Five minutes evaluating the group...depending on group size.

IMO, this method gives a teacher the best of both worlds when introducing new techniques. One can spend the entire class period teaching one technique and they can keep class moving and changing in order to hold a students interest. This won't work for every situation, but it is a good tool to have in your teacher's bag.

upnorthkyosa

 

[Gemini]

John, this is a very interesting link. Thank you. Now how many classes of doing this would you guess (or know) it takes to make that part of your student's arsenal. I mean, not just show them, but for them to really fully understand it and execute? Even if you explain the concept and they understand it, they still have to practice it's execution X amount of times to be effective. Do you overlap the lessons, such as practice the 5 E's in a class, then in the next class, bring up the next movement but still allow time to practice the previous movement? I hope that question makes sense. And lastly, how do you effectively do with with students in the same class, but are at different levels?

Tigerwoman. I initially learned sparring in the same manner. I didn't agree with it at the time, nor understand the method to the madness until much (years) later. It turned out that my instructor wanted to see (and have the students prove) who had the stomach to stick with it at its raw foundation. Only after seeing a student truly wanted to learn, did he begin actually teaching movement and strategy. Again, it didn't make sense to me for several years until I began teaching and realized how much time and effort you can put into a student's progress, only to have them loose interest. It's very demoriaizing as an instructor. Then after learning which students wanted to stick with it and which didn't would separate who learned what and when. Sort of a reward system that is geared to feed the hungry. Now that brought up a new point. If he had put in the effort to those other students, would they have quit? His answer was "that's one of the differences between an instructor and a master". Years of dealing with different personalities and character types will teach you who is serious and who isn't. Students are there for different reasons. Unless you understand their motivation, it's hit or miss as to whether you can keep them interested. There are little tests that you can give a student that will answer the questions without them even knowing it. This is pretty much the level of instructing I'm at now. (I'm an instructor, learning to become a master) Students motivation and successfully addressing it. Hence my initial question.

 

[Makalakumu]

John, this is a very interesting link. Thank you. Now how many classes of doing this would you guess (or know) it takes to make that part of your student's arsenal? I mean, not just show them, but for them to really fully understand it and execute? Even if you explain the concept and they understand it, they still have to practice it's execution X amount of times to be effective.

My view of teaching and learning a martial art is very much like that of teaching and learning how to play an instrument. I can show a student the chords and the movements to play a song, but they will not learn how to play that song unless they practice on their own. Class time is valuable instruction time and, ideally, I want to spend as much of it teaching as I can. As a student advances, they must take time on their own to take responsability for their learning.

This does not mean that I don't review old material with my students. Sometimes a substantial portion of my class is spent on reviewing old material and tweaking things. Also, the way that I have my class schedules structured allows me to review old material by inviting advanced students to participate in lower ranked classes.

So I guess the answer to your question is that it depends on the student. If they come to class, review the old material, and practice on their own regularly, they should be able to learn certain techniques relatively quickly. However, if the student expends less energy, then the returns will be less. The bottom line is, IMO, as teachers, we cannot expect to make our students better by ourselves. We can be as clear as possible, give good advice, and correct mistakes, but only through repetition are our efforts truly successful. I'll lay that responsability at the feet of my students.

Do you overlap the lessons, such as practice the 5 E's in a class, then in the next class, bring up the next movement but still allow time to practice the previous movement? I hope that question makes sense.

The answer is yes. This is called scaffolding. The teacher builds a set of skills in a student that allows them to leap to the next step. Part of scaffolding is climbing up the previous steps to show a progression. Take, for instance, a jump spinning side kick with a fake (I think that this would be your basic 540 in TKD). When teaching this kick, I believe that one needs to start with a side kick. Then add a spin. Then add the fake. Then finally add the jump. Practicing every step can be review, but it is also important in delivering the finished product. This can be accomplished during the Explore and Explain phases of the Five E's...with the Engage phase being accomplished by showing the students finished product.

Everything that a teacher teaches should be scaffolded in some way. Research shows that this is the best way to learn. There should be no dead ends in a curriculum, every step should lead to something else. This is how we consistently and uniformly demand more from our students.

And lastly, how do you effectively do with with students in the same class, but are at different levels?

When one knows the scaffolding the builds up to whatever level the student is at, all the teacher needs to do is point out where on the scaffolding that technique lies. For instance, lets jump back to the 540. If I have a class of mix ability and we are working the mechanics of a side kick (basic material) the higher ranking student should be able to see (possibly with the teacher's help) the direct benefit of practicing that technique on the advanced techniques (the 540) that they are currently learning for their rank.

 

[Makalakumu]

A teacher can't really be effective if they are trying to teach 20 different things to 20 different people in one class period. Each student is only getting 1/20th of the teacher's instruction time and the teacher has split his focus 20 different ways. And usually, so much time is long in the transistion from student to student, everyone leaves frustrated.

Traditional teachers, my teacher included, usually avoided this by only taking on a few students. But this is not always possible. In large dojos/dojangs, class sizes can get large. So scaffolding is a must. And even for small classes, scaffolding will greatly enhance a students understanding of the material.

One of my biggest pet peeves regarding the teaching of martial arts is how the material always so scattered. The curriculum is in no way scaffolded. That is why I've spent years rewriting curriculum I've learned in attempt to create some sort of scaffolding system. I'm not finished yet, but here is what I've got so far. Superior TSD Curriculum. I hope this answers some questions...

upnorthkyosa

 

[still learning]

Hello, It that why it takes years to learn.....step by step?

Most professional fighters tell you they have only 3-4 things they like to do in a fight?

Is fighting so complicated? Share the " Hawaiian Punch" only one flavor?

Eyes....have it? biting works too..............Aloha

 

[Rich Parsons]

Have you found it more effective to teach a single drill over and over until a student understands and can execute it before moving on or teaching an entire regime and let students pick up parts of it at their own pace?

It seems to me teaching a single technique or drill repeatedly would be the correct answer, but knowing that students tend to get bored and/or frustrated and just end up quitting is often the result.

Teaching an entire set of moves over a longer period of time allows for more variety in learning, but takes much longer for a student to pick up any one thing very quickly.

Seeing that there are positives and negatives to both methods, what works for you and why?

Thank you.

I teach the basics. Then as the drill is still being practiced, I add more to it. Better off hand positioning, or weight placement, and distancing.

Then I switch to something else and start a new series. this keeps the interest up. Yet but to keep it constantly changing is confusing.

"The one sure way to not teach anything is to try to teach the student everything at once."

 

[Gemini]

"The one sure way to not teach anything is to try to teach the student everything at once."

Good point. But when teaching multiple things at the same time, knowing when it gets to "too much" is the difference between success and failure I think.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Good point. But when teaching multiple things at the same time, knowing when it gets to "too much" is the difference between success and failure I think.

True.

Most people have a harare (* Spelling *) number of 7 +/- 2.

This is the number if simple items a person can remember.

Have someone read off a list of numbers. All they can do is read them to you. Then after reading 10+ digits, you get 15 to 20 seconds to write down as many as you can in the order they were read to you.

So by keeping the topics/concepts to a couple to a simple few, the students can possible retain more.

 

[Gemini]

True.

Most people have a harare (* Spelling *) number of 7 +/- 2.

This is the number if simple items a person can remember.

Have someone read off a list of numbers. All they can do is read them to you. Then after reading 10+ digits, you get 15 to 20 seconds to write down as many as you can in the order they were read to you.

So by keeping the topics/concepts to a couple to a simple few, the students can possible retain more.

That's interesting. I would have thought the number to be lower than that. But now, if you have a class of say, 15-20 students, ranging from 3's to 8's, I guess you would break them into groups defined more by their ability to remember than rank, correct? Or would you teach them at rank level but have them learn at different speeds.

 

[TigerWoman]

It depends on what you are teaching. If it is technique, then yes, I would teach rank level and expect them to rise to the occasion. If I see any having trouble remembering or executing, then I help.

But if you are teaching form, our class is too varied. You might be lucky to get two high blues together. So I would teach individually probably and especially with the white thru orange belts.

As with anything, I think you need a basis to learn from. Once you have the basic kicks, stances, punches, blocks, a few offense/defense techniques, then you can build on that. I see alot of people leaving because they think sparring is too hard, that it takes too much time to "see". Or that it is all work, just repetition of kicks etc. If you teach for failure, ie. possibly the student leaving for a myriad of reasons, they probably will. If you give them success they will motivate themselves. I think teaching in too many segments is too disjointed and they can't put it together until they are red+. Too long, that's 3 years to actually have success at sparring. If they could have some success at the lower ranks, they have more fun and get more involved. My experiment with the two girls from community ed class that I mentioned earlier proved that. I wouldn't dream of boring them for 20 minutes of lecture before they actually got to move their bodies. Most of our students have paid for 2-3 hour classes of time per week, they want to exercise and learn TKD. They have limited time and space at home to actually practice more. They have jobs and families. For the first few level of belts, we are lucky that they practice a few memory moves in their forms at home. They are best served if they are allowed alot of practice time at the dojang. After all, they are there to do TKD not read from a book. We do make sure the first 30-40 minutes is physical conditioning-cardiovascular, with technique education built in. A few minutes of instruction then practice is all they need. Then you can build on that adding variations of technique, hone their skills as you watch them and as they progress. Then within the week, the students should use those skills as reinforcement to memory and continue to be reminded by occasional practice. TW

 

[DuneViking]

Even within our organization, we have those who teach both a plethora of techniques/forms and those who teach reptatively and then move on to another item only after the former is examined 5, 10, or even 15 times. Probably the best example is forms instruction. While I tend to have them repeat "bars", then add the bars up to complete the form, then repeat the form, others may go thru the full form 2 times then move on to more forms.
I teach the way I was taught by my instructor. Some can benefit from accelerated instruction, but I think many miss the refinement and subtlties. Also, repetition leads to perfection and forces self discipline. If a student leaves because of that, they are not ready to train - with us anyway.

 

[Rich Parsons]

That's interesting. I would have thought the number to be lower than that. But now, if you have a class of say, 15-20 students, ranging from 3's to 8's, I guess you would break them into groups defined more by their ability to remember than rank, correct? Or would you teach them at rank level but have them learn at different speeds.

Well in class I teach by rank and skill. If a black belt and a brown belt are working together, then I expect different skill sets from one than the other.

For the lower colored ranks, they work together or being lead, and I expect differnet than for them as well. Note: Teh school I teach out of has a very good black belt to student ratio and the over all size is small by most standards.

In Seminars, I start out simple, and watch those that are bored or can handle more, and then I give them more as I walk around helping and giving instruction. I then give more as the instruction goes on and build on what is taught. So if students cannot grasp the new concept or technique no matter the rank, I tell them to do what they can and work where they feel comfortable, or slightly challenged. It is good to push, but if they are totally confused then you have lost them.

 

[digitalronin]

Picture a mama bird teaching its chick to fly. There is a natural learning progression. The chick must learn to strengthen it wings before its ready to leave the nest. What good does it do to demand instant flight when it does not have the tools to do the basic function. why do some martial arts instructors expect fancy punching and kicking sequences when their students cant even pull off a basic motion. Perhaps the demand for more complex teaching is due to the american mindset that bigger, faster, and fancier is better.

I am just a student but thats my two cents.

 

[Makalakumu]

One of my biggest pet peeves about martial arts instruction is that very few of the "masters" actually know how to teach. There is so much material out there in the educational field in which martial arts instruction could benefit, but little is put into action because of the "don't question the master" policy. I look at concepts like contructivism and scaffolding and I wonder what kind of students one could produce if only the curriculum could be changed to fit these highly successful teaching strategies.

Sometimes I wonder if the prepoderance of McDojos that one sees is a direct response of the bad teaching that gets passed off as MA instruction.

:soapbox:

upnorthkyosa

 

[Gemini]

One of my biggest pet peeves about martial arts instruction is that very few of the "masters" actually know how to teach.
upnorthkyosa

I would agree with that, and because it is my intention to one day be a master, I refuse to be one of them. I am fortunate in my training as I feel I have a far better than average instructor. Even that being the case, he is only one man and therefore I would be foolish in thinking his way is the only way. I may not be the smartest human in the world, but I'm not an idiot either. I feel that the more I can learn, the more options I have to try and see what works and what doesn't. That way, even being a master, I can learn from it. This thread has given me a great insight and so much to think about. I appreciate everyone's input. It's been very constructive.

 

[MJS]

Have you found it more effective to teach a single drill over and over until a student understands and can execute it before moving on or teaching an entire regime and let students pick up parts of it at their own pace?

It seems to me teaching a single technique or drill repeatedly would be the correct answer, but knowing that students tend to get bored and/or frustrated and just end up quitting is often the result.

Teaching an entire set of moves over a longer period of time allows for more variety in learning, but takes much longer for a student to pick up any one thing very quickly.

Seeing that there are positives and negatives to both methods, what works for you and why?

Thank you.

I've actually done both depending on who I was teaching. If it was a beginner class, I would want them to get whatever it was that I was teaching down, before moving on. Overwhelming a beginner is IMO going to be counter productive. If it was a more advanced group, there were times when I'd continue on, of course, always stressing to do what they could handle.

If we look at a seminar, we'll find that there is a ton of info. thrown at the group. Is it possible to remember everything and be proficient at it? Depends on the person, but usually there is so much, its hard to retain it all. Take bits and pieces and chances are, the material will be seen another time.

Mike

 

[jdinca]

I think both ways are important. We use Group classes to work on basics. I do a lot of repetetive drills to ingrain the basics. Every now and then I'll mix them up so the students don't develop muscle memory just for that drill. The higher the students rank, the more refined the corrections are. Even in instructor workouts, we've had two and three hour classes devoted to the forward snap kick, the very first kick you learn in the system. Students also have belt material that's individual to their rank, that takes the basics and puts it into an attack "short story". Either way, repetition is the key, both in class and in personal workout.