a question for those of you who regularly see top sport tkdists

[ralphmcpherson]

I was having a discussion with a fellow tkdist the other day and we were discussing 'sport/olympic' tkd and the fact that its perceived to have little to no use on the 'street'. Now I dont do sport tkd and neither does he so we dont get to see a lot of the real top tkdists who compete. I commented that I believed that if steven lopez (the only top level tkdist I know of) was walking down the street and average joe (who can fight a little bit and has been in a few fights over the years but has no real training), walks up, they get in an altercation and a fight ensues that I believe steven would very easily and quickly kick the hell out of the guy. Now the tkdist I was discussing this with disagreed but my way of thinking is his reflexes, stamina, speed, timing and the fact he fights proffessionally would just put him in another league to average joe. I cant even begin to imagine how quick sports tkdist must be able to kick, I train with guys who can kick you in about the time it takes to blink and yet they wouldnt even be in the same ball park as an elite tkd fighter. A few people Ive mentioned this to have taken an opposing view to mine so I wanted to ask people like ATC, terry etc who regularly see the elite guys spar what their thoughts are on this. Cheers in advance.

 

[terryl965]

Well since I know him, I will only say this if the guy takes him to the ground Steven would be in trouble but I highly doubt Steven would let it go their. His kicks are fast and hard and would do damage to any part of that person body and he could probaly get four to six great kicks in before the average Joe knew what hit him.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Thats my reasoning. I can only imagine the flurry of kicks that he could unleash very quickly.

 

[terryl965]

Thats my reasoning. I can only imagine the flurry of kicks that he could unleash very quickly.

Beside the number the power that goes with them is unmatched, when you get hit by one it feels like a truck hitting you.

 

[Gorilla]

We train with MMA Fighters and Top Sport TKD fighters. I have been to all major competitions in the USA and several in Europe. These are very tough people who can fight outside the Olympic TKD Arena!

Olympic Sport TKD is what they compete in many train in various styles.

The people I know in Sport TKD are very tough!!!

 

[Gorilla]

Beside the number the power that goes with them is unmatched, when you get hit by one it feels like a truck hitting you.

People really underestimate the power of the kicks in Sport TKD.

My 105 pound daughters kicks feel like you are being hit by a sledge hammer!

 

[Manny]

I think a well trained tkd fighter (sport TKD/olimpic TKD) can manage a street fight against a punk.

A well placed kick can end a fight as soon as it started.

Manny

 

[dancingalone]

Kind of a meaningless comparison, guys. Any elite fighter, even in a sporting discipline, should be able to pound Joe Average on the street.

A pro boxer should be able to kill the average commercial studio TKD black belt. A pro MMA guy will likely beat up your local wing chun guru. And so one, and so on.

People who are at elite levels have 1) physical talent and athleticism which is hones, but a lot of it is just simple genetic fortune and 2) long training periods with the best teachers and coaches. A guy like Steven Lopez would just be as successful if he had picked some other martial art to specialize in, given the same amount of training hours. And yes, he should be able to pound the average guy off the street, given these advantages even if he's an Olympic style person.

 

[ATC]

Contrary to belief many sport TKD people know how to punch and do a little ground fighting.

Sport TKD people actually punch pretty darn hard as they practice doing what is called a cover punch to the hogu and practice this to generate great power. The only way to score with the punch in Olympic Sport TKD is to punch the body and punch it hard. Something that is very hard to do with the hogu on. I have seen people doubled over from a good punch to the chest through the hogu. I have seen many of those punches go to the chin (by accident or on purpose) and drop people also. Don't get it wrong they can punch and punch to the face if need be.

As for the ground fighting it will not be MMA style but TKD style which is to hit nerve point and pressure points. Many schools do not only teach the sport but some traditional parts of the arts as well. I know our school is this way. If you excel in the normal classes you will be asked to join the competition team, but you will still do your normal classes as well. We teach some boxing as well as some Hapkido, so joint locks as well as small joint locks and pressure point and nerve points are taught. Not to mention some limited judo (part of Hapkido).

Now a pure TKD fighter againt an MMA fighter in the ring is a no brainer. The rules plus the style is not tilted towards the TKD fighter so "Athlete vs. Athlete" The pure TKD guy will not win. However against an average Joe off the street the top guys will win just about every time, there will always be exception though.

 

[granfire]

Kind of a meaningless comparison, guys. Any elite fighter, even in a sporting discipline, should be able to pound Joe Average on the street.

A pro boxer should be able to kill the average commercial studio TKD black belt. A pro MMA guy will likely beat up your local wing chun guru. And so one, and so on.

People who are at elite levels have 1) physical talent and athleticism which is hones, but a lot of it is just simple genetic fortune and 2) long training periods with the best teachers and coaches. A guy like Steven Lopez would just be as successful if he had picked some other martial art to specialize in, given the same amount of training hours. And yes, he should be able to pound the average guy off the street, given these advantages even if he's an Olympic style person.

And there I thought you would say "the elite TKD guy won't have time to go to the bad part of town"
:lol:

 

[dancingalone]

And there I thought you would say "the elite TKD guy won't have time to go to the bad part of town"
:lol:

The movie Best of the Best proves that theory wrong.

 

[ATC]

People who are at elite levels have 1) physical talent and athleticism which is hones, but a lot of it is just simple genetic fortune and 2) long training periods with the best teachers and coaches. A guy like Steven Lopez would just be as successful if he had picked some other martial art to specialize in, given the same amount of training hours. And yes, he should be able to pound the average guy off the street, given these advantages even if he's an Olympic style person.

just about sums it up in a nutshell.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Kind of a meaningless comparison, guys. Any elite fighter, even in a sporting discipline, should be able to pound Joe Average on the street.

A pro boxer should be able to kill the average commercial studio TKD black belt. A pro MMA guy will likely beat up your local wing chun guru. And so one, and so on.

People who are at elite levels have 1) physical talent and athleticism which is hones, but a lot of it is just simple genetic fortune and 2) long training periods with the best teachers and coaches. A guy like Steven Lopez would just be as successful if he had picked some other martial art to specialize in, given the same amount of training hours. And yes, he should be able to pound the average guy off the street, given these advantages even if he's an Olympic style person.

I agree, but if you go and check a few threads around the place you will see the sentence -"sport tkd is of no use at all in real life self defence", I think the point being made here is that it is actually far from "useless". I know he is one of the elite ones, but I would imagine any tkdist training the sport version seriously would also have a heap of advantages over 'average joe'. The original point I was trying to make to the person I was discussing this with was that sport tkd is not "useless" for defending yourself. It has a preferred range and has some limitations, but then what art doesnt?

 

[dancingalone]

The original point I was trying to make to the person I was discussing this with was that sport tkd is not "useless" for defending yourself. It has a preferred range and has some limitations, but then what art doesnt?

Anything could be useful in the heat of the moment. I daresay knowing how to pitch a baseball could be a good thing in some fights. It would be very foolish to discount any type of physical training so long as it has intensity and a process for improvement of skills in it.

Still I don't think sport TKD is ideally focused for self-defense training. I would hate to get into a style vs. style argument but I believe some types of training address far more self-defense scenarios than does sport TKD. So if self-defense is your top concern, I would look at those other training options first.

On the other hand, the strong points of sport TKD is that it is a great aerobic activity and it can teach you how to kick fast AND hard at a moving target in a fun, competitive environment. It all depends on what you want out of a martial art/martial sport.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Anything could be useful in the heat of the moment. I daresay knowing how to pitch a baseball could be a good thing in some fights. It would be very foolish to discount any type of physical training so long as it has intensity and a process for improvement of skills in it.

Still I don't think sport TKD is ideally focused for self-defense training. I would hate to get into a style vs. style argument but I believe some types of training address far more self-defense scenarios than does sport TKD. So if self-defense is your top concern, I would look at those other training options first.

On the other hand, the strong points of sport TKD is that it is a great aerobic activity and it can teach you how to kick fast AND hard at a moving target in a fun, competitive environment. It all depends on what you want out of a martial art/martial sport.

I totally agree and that was my original point. While sport tkd may not be geared 100% toward self defence, I just find it frustrating to constantly hear it referred to as "useless". My daughter does tkd and I have absolutely no doubt she could defend herself significantly better than before she started and yet I still hear people constantly telling me that "gee, I hope she doesnt ever have to defend herself or she'll find out the hard way that what she is being taught is of no use in the real world". Basically, I think sport tkd gets a very bad rap, and a lot of it is undeserved. I personally dont do sport tkd but I would never say it wont help you in the real world. Being able to kick someone hard and dealy accurately in a fraction of a second has to be helpful to some degree.

 

[ATC]

Well what is better, nothing at all, or sport TKD?

Lets break it down what sport TKD teaches and develops.

1. Fitness - You will be conditioned and in shape.
2. Technique - You will be able to deliver a punch or a kick properly.
3. Accuracy - You will hit what you intend to hit.
4. Power - When you hit what you intend to hit you will hit it hard.
5. Reflex - You will instinctively react without much thought.
6. Speed - Most likely your attacker won't even know what happened when it happens.
7. Distance - You will not be too close nor to far if you don't want to be.
8. Timing - This is everything (to late and you miss, too early and you miss).

Those 8 things are about all you need. I may have left out a few but once you have those you will dominate any Joe off the street. Also your chances against multiple attackers are better also.

Yes there are other things such as awareness and so on but if we are only talking about the physical aspects needed then they will have it all.

Those that teach TKD or any art for that matter simply think about any adult student that you teach. Think back to when they first walked in and started taking lessons. How weak were their punches and kicks? No matter their size, they could not punch or kick with any substantial power. Now remember back at how easily they got hurt. Everything hurt them. Even kicking the heavy bag hurt. Fast forward even 1 year and look at the difference.

I can tell you that not a single first time off the street person could even kick hard enough let alone with any speed or accuracy to hurt even a 10 year old with 5 years training under his belt.

Anyone that says sport TKD is USELESS is CLUELESS, simple as that. Plus if they even practice one SD class a week is more than enough for a person that is already conditioned. They will pick up simple SD techniques pretty easily and deliver them with accuracy and power. They know their bodies well.

Of course I am talking about above average sports people. If you are only the casual student then you have some skill and what you know will help you better than nothing but the top guys and gals will be on a different level just because of their dedication and level of constant competition.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Well what is better, nothing at all, or sport TKD?

Lets break it down what sport TKD teaches and develops.

1. Fitness - You will be conditioned and in shape.
2. Technique - You will be able to deliver a punch or a kick properly.
3. Accuracy - You will hit what you intend to hit.
4. Power - When you hit what you intend to hit you will hit it hard.
5. Reflex - You will instinctively react without much thought.
6. Speed - Most likely your attacker won't even know what happened when it happens.
7. Distance - You will not be too close nor to far if you don't want to be.
8. Timing - This is everything (to late and you miss, too early and you miss).

Those 8 things are about all you need. I may have left out a few but once you have those you will dominate any Joe off the street. Also your chances against multiple attackers are better also.

Yes there are other things such as awareness and so on but if we are only talking about the physical aspects needed then they will have it all.

Those that teach TKD or any art for that matter simply think about any adult student that you teach. Think back to when they first walked in and started taking lessons. How weak were their punches and kicks? No matter their size, they could not punch or kick with any substantial power. Now remember back at how easily they got hurt. Everything hurt them. Even kicking the heavy bag hurt. Fast forward even 1 year and look at the difference.

I can tell you that not a single first time off the street person could even kick hard enough let alone with any speed or accuracy to hurt even a 10 year old with 5 years training under his belt.

Anyone that says sport TKD is USELESS is CLUELESS, simple as that. Plus if they even practice one SD class a week is more than enough for a person that is already conditioned. They will pick up simple SD techniques pretty easily and deliver them with accuracy and power. They know their bodies well.

Of course I am talking about above average sports people. If you are only the casual student then you have some skill and what you know will help you better than nothing but the top guys and gals will be on a different level just because of their dedication and level of constant competition.

well said.

 

[risingfire]

The movie Best of the Best proves that theory wrong.

"Pop it Tommy!!! Pop it!!" I love that movie I have all three lol, made my girlfriend watch all three with me.

On another note: Part of our class ALWAYS includes self defense, and groundwork. We cannot pass testing if we do not complete several self defense techniques, and excute grappling. I know the average Joe would have a hard time with any martial artist I know. Remember, I use the term Martial artist someone who is devoted, not someone who just "just after that black belt."

 

[Master Dan]

I commented that I believed that if steven lopez (the only top level people Ive mentioned this to have taken an opposing view to mine so I wanted to ask people like ATC, terry etc who regularly see the elite guys spar what their thoughts are on this. Cheers in advance.[/quote]

In the early 60's 70's the full contact world champions I knew and trained with had simple technique but you would not want to get hit with it. If peopel still trained like that and had no gloves like we do now there would be fatalities in the ring. Now in general there is to much flash going for points instead of knock out more emphasis on wining instead of a great fight?

However peopel like Steven and others do have some blinding speed with feet and the average joe just won't see it or worse they will step back and give him distance which is the last thing you want to do to any one who has length advantage. your only chance is to stay inside close tie him up take it to ground if you know what your doing then you will have a chance but this is average Joe? street thug, been to jail, hard life I might put my money on you. What a good elite TKD full contact fighter does have or any good full contact fighter is the ability to control the adrenalin drop to be calm and control the situation due to fighting maybe 10 to 20 guys a night that just want to kick his *** to put a notch on thier belt. You come in sick or injured and its a pig pile. Thats the second advantage of the TKD or other sport fighter is conditioning, endurance and being able to take a hit. True fighting is about taking a shot to give a better one. When the guy has hit you with everthing he has and it has little or no effect he soon realizes he has made a mistake? A sport athlete will loose against a street elite because they are different technique and different rules.
I was recently at a national seminar and a rep from Kukkiwon came out to teach newest sport fighting methods and he first said he was old retired injured and grouchy. I think he was 6'4"? he cut loose with a turning kick to the head that was so fast is was blinding and the point was his position so the other person could not counter and make a point.

Everyones mouth dropped knowing any one hit with that would be KO and injured besides oh yah he is old and feeble??

Last point I like what Dr. Chung said that it is imoral to use more force that is necessary to control the situation which means if the other guy is so inept that you can kick him in the head you should not be touching him. And frankly anyone who dose deserves to be on his back not a good place to be. I like what one of my GM's say when asked if he kicks to the head, he said oh yeh when there on the ground.

ダン師
Master Dan Scholten

 

[Balrog]

People who are at elite levels have 1) physical talent and athleticism which is hones, but a lot of it is just simple genetic fortune and 2) long training periods with the best teachers and coaches. A guy like Steven Lopez would just be as successful if he had picked some other martial art to specialize in, given the same amount of training hours. And yes, he should be able to pound the average guy off the street, given these advantages even if he's an Olympic style person.

Well stated!