A question about checks

[Doc]

???????

I did not realize this would be so difficult. A knee check as in the first move of Five Swords where your right leg is checking the opponent's right leg.

Checking with your hand to the opponent's wrist, elbow, shoulder etc.

Things will always be difficult sir, when you assume that others have the same understandings you do. The term 'check' is very open-ended and vague in and of itself. Especially used within the context of a technique here, once again assuming, others perform the technique as you understand it.

Anyone who follows my writings on these forums know I disseminate information of value, and rarely venture into vague generalities when speaking of execution and/or applications that people may use and rely upon for their well-being.

For the record the "knee check" you mention in "Five Swords" is dysfunctional, and in my understandings is non-existent in actual application. As far as the 'hand check to the wrist, elbow, shoulder, etc,' I have no idea.

I get a sense what you call 'checks,' many others may call something else. At any rate the 'checks' inherent in the Chinese Martial Arts were incorporated in Mr. Parker's personal usage in the very early sixties prior to his publication of "Secrets of Chinese Karate."

 

[jfarnsworth]

If I may, Sir. I believe his response should have been the application of pressing checks, or pinning checks. Depending upon his application my guess is that he was referring to either of these.

 

[Touch Of Death]

The neutral bow. LOL as if...

What is neutral about the neutral bow? What is neutrality. I know you may have been kidding about the answer you gave, but I think you have hit on a very interesting point. Is keeping someone in check the same as checking? Why or why not?
Sean

 

[Carol]

Is keeping someone in check the same as checking?
Sean

Nope. A check involves impact, says the NHL fan.

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

What is neutral about the neutral bow? What is neutrality. I know you may have been kidding about the answer you gave, but I think you have hit on a very interesting point. Is keeping someone in check the same as checking? Why or why not?
Sean

Yeah I was kidding. but to the question that's why I like Huk Planas' terminology of checking. He has checks and covers. Checking is actually actively making contact to curtail an action. Covers is placing the body in position to anticipate possible action. I find cover a less confusing term to use when teaching than 'positional check'

 

[Touch Of Death]

Nope. A check involves impact, says the NHL fan.

ALL the offensive techs say different. Starting with B1a.(leg to leg)
Sean

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

ALL the offensive techs say different. Starting with B1a.(leg to leg)
Sean

does your leg not 'impact' their leg before maintaining constant pressure? Any contact between objects involves some level of impact when the objects first make contact with each other.

 

[HKphooey]

IMO, a check is anything that keep the "boys" and the smile my parents paid for, intact!

 

[MattJ]

If I may, Sir. I believe his response should have been the application of pressing checks, or pinning checks. Depending upon his application my guess is that he was referring to either of these.

I was indeed, sir. I was attempting to make myself fairly clear, but meh.

Quote by MattJ -

I was referring to the standard pinning checks

But anyway, thank you Doc for answering my question. I am curious though, about what you meant by "what you call checks". You will have to forgive me, as I have been out of active EPAK practice since 1999. Is there another term that has come about for what I described? Back then, "check" was a fairly common term for what was understood to be pinning or pressing checks. Positional checks and so on were often called that specifically to avoid confusion.

 

[Doc]

I was indeed, sir. I was attempting to make myself fairly clear, but meh.

Quote by MattJ -



But anyway, thank you Doc for answering my question. I am curious though, about what you meant by "what you call checks". You will have to forgive me, as I have been out of active EPAK practice since 1999. Is there another term that has come about for what I described? Back then, "check" was a fairly common term for what was understood to be pinning or pressing checks. Positional checks and so on were often called that specifically to avoid confusion.

It depends upon your interpretation. Some utilize the term(s) check to suppliment applications. Others might sugest as we do, that the term 'check' is a given subcategory of all purposeful primary contact applications. For us, there are no 'primary check' applications, and therefore no reason to single them out for discusssion.

 

[Touch Of Death]

does your leg not 'impact' their leg before maintaining constant pressure? Any contact between objects involves some level of impact when the objects first make contact with each other.

hence, its a check.

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

hence, its a check.

Exactly, so Carol was right about a check involving impact and the offensive techniques don't say different.

 

[Sigung86]

Putting my own two cents in here ... And I'm probably wrong ... But that's never stopped me before. LOL!

The other night I was watching some old vid of SGM Parker which was shot after the Tracy Brothers left the fold. How to phrase this??? Tracy's Kenpo is, topically, not as sophisticated as later EPAK when it comes to using "checks" as opposed to the Okinawan/Japanese tendency to chamber the "opposite" hand. That would be the old style as taught, and as seen on the original 8mm training tapes that Chuck Sullivan and SGM Parker put out in the very late 60s. Nor does the Tracy method (Old style Kenpo) lend itself to mobility in the same manner as the later EPAK material.

At any rate, I was watching SGM Parker doing a particular series of moves (don't know which particular technique) and he was performing a hand check with each move. I reran the portion a number of times just to validate my first impression, and he was not performing checks at all... At least not in the sense that I perceive that many of you are using the term. His "checks" were essentially, what I believe the good Doc refers to in his material as BAMs (Balance Alignment Mechanisms? And thanks for the validation Doc). Each one of the "positional checks" were in fact, on further study of the material, enhancing a strike or block motion. He was even putting a check at the distal/posterior portion of his elbow as it seemed he was performing an overhand type of strike.

Some of the BAMs he applied could probably be interpreted as "positional checks", although, in my paradigm, I don't really see the need for them in that interpretation. However, others were obviously there to supplement, support, or enhance to some degree, the strike itself.

At the risk of pissing off a number of others, and apropos of the fact that I am an outside observer to EPAK, but a staunch supporter of Doc Chapél, his theories and applications, and Dennis Conatser, I think that folks need to re-examine their use of "positional checks" and validate, with fresh eyes and an open mind, why those motions are there, their actual functionality, and how they are most effectively applied.

I probably do need to shut up now, however, as I received a call from someone last p.m. wanting to know if I would teach them SL4. I almost opted for Supra-Level 7, which is an admixture of old TRACO, Tracy's Karate, my shallow understanding of SL4, and Smith and Wesson. %-} ... er ... :caffeine:

 

[Doc]

Putting my own two cents in here ... And I'm probably wrong ... But that's never stopped me before. LOL!

The other night I was watching some old vid of SGM Parker which was shot after the Tracy Brothers left the fold. How to phrase this??? Tracy's Kenpo is, topically, not as sophisticated as later EPAK when it comes to using "checks" as opposed to the Okinawan/Japanese tendency to chamber the "opposite" hand. That would be the old style as taught, and as seen on the original 8mm training tapes that Chuck Sullivan and SGM Parker put out in the very late 60s. Nor does the Tracy method (Old style Kenpo) lend itself to mobility in the same manner as the later EPAK material.

At any rate, I was watching SGM Parker doing a particular series of moves (don't know which particular technique) and he was performing a hand check with each move. I reran the portion a number of times just to validate my first impression, and he was not performing checks at all... At least not in the sense that I perceive that many of you are using the term. His "checks" were essentially, what I believe the good Doc refers to in his material as BAMs (Balance Alignment Mechanisms? And thanks for the validation Doc). Each one of the "positional checks" were in fact, on further study of the material, enhancing a strike or block motion. He was even putting a check at the distal/posterior portion of his elbow as it seemed he was performing an overhand type of strike.

Some of the BAMs he applied could probably be interpreted as "positional checks", although, in my paradigm, I don't really see the need for them in that interpretation. However, others were obviously there to supplement, support, or enhance to some degree, the strike itself.

At the risk of pissing off a number of others, and apropos of the fact that I am an outside observer to EPAK, but a staunch supporter of Doc Chapél, his theories and applications, and Dennis Conatser, I think that folks need to re-examine their use of "positional checks" and validate, with fresh eyes and an open mind, why those motions are there, their actual functionality, and how they are most effectively applied.

I probably do need to shut up now, however, as I received a call from someone last p.m. wanting to know if I would teach them SL4. I almost opted for Supra-Level 7, which is an admixture of old TRACO, Tracy's Karate, my shallow understanding of SL4, and Smith and Wesson. %-} ... er ... :caffeine:

Body ALignment Mechanism. A part of the autonomic nervous systems use of proprioceptive neuromuscular facilitation, as the body monitors itself and its many parts in 'space.' These mechanisms act as sensor cues to inform the body of where structure is needed in activities not yet supported by a mind body connection and hard wired synaptic pathways.

 

[nlkenpo]

So let me get this straight. Paul said Mr. Parker put in 'checks' because without 'checks' the 'system wouldn't work for everybody?

While it is true most came from other styles and already had a working knowledge of the arts, the story suggests that Parker knew 'checks' but didn't need to teach them to certain people because they didn't need them because they were effective already. So by this logic, if Parker taught you 'checks,' it was because he didn't think you were any good?

So did Paul ever tell you where he got this info from sir, because he definitely wasn't there?

Nope, that's not what he said. Logic is difficult isn't it??

The story was that the checks were put in for beginners. Someone who wasn't any good, wouldn't be able to apply the checks so that wouldn't help them, now would it.

The checks were taught to everybody, good or not so good, because one day they might all become teachers teaching beginners, and therefore they'd be needing the checks.

 

[Doc]

Nope, that's not what he said. Logic is difficult isn't it??

The story was that the checks were put in for beginners. Someone who wasn't any good, wouldn't be able to apply the checks so that wouldn't help them, now would it.

The checks were taught to everybody, good or not so good, because one day they might all become teachers teaching beginners, and therefore they'd be needing the checks.

Sorry but the story doesn't hold up very well, and I was there.

 

[nlkenpo]

OK fair enough.

Maybe I paraphrased the story wrong, or maybe there's more than one perception possible of what really happened back then.

Whatever, the checks are there now, so we'd better study and apply them whenever possible and/or needed.

Regards,
Marcel

 

[Doc]

OK fair enough.

Maybe I paraphrased the story wrong, or maybe there's more than one perception possible of what really happened back then.

Whatever, the checks are there now, so we'd better study and apply them whenever possible and/or needed.

Regards,
Marcel

On that we most defenitely can agree sir.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Let Fingerset be your master key set for checking.

 

[Doc]

Let Fingerset be your master key set for checking.

That must be a serious joke.