2nd Debate Post-Debate Debate.

[Bob Hubbard]

According to CNN.com, it was all over at 9:52pm
"Tense talk, sharp words
With both candidates using the stage and hand gestures, President Bush and Sen. John Kerry used tough words in their debate tonight. Kerry hit Bush for restricting Medicare's ability to buy drugs in bulk. Bush said he would allow drugs to be imported from Canada if it was proved to be safe."

So, what did y'all think?
Who won, Who Lost, and, who just looked lost?

I'm gonna go finish watching the rest of the thing at CNN's time-machine already showed them.

 

[Makalakumu]

MSN Poll

90,000 reporting

Kerry 79%
Bush 21%

Again, Kerry shows that he can improvise and think out of the box. While Bush delivers more of the same boxed in and overprepped rhetoric. Whenever the president was cornered into anything, he dodged. (I'm not saying that Kerry did not deliver his own sound bytes)

I think that the President did a much better job this time, though.

upnorthkyosa

 

[michaeledward]

Kerry in front.

Bush did much better, except that he is running against the Junior Senator from Massachusetts. And the 'I don't know if I should scowl' comment didn't help either.

I also think Kerry may have impressed some when he talked about his personal faith and the responsibility of keeping personal convictions out of public policy. We, of course, have had that debate here, haven't we.



More as time passes. Mike

 

[Bob Hubbard]

I'll be honest, I didn't like either of them.

Something about Kerry just bothered me, I just can't put my finger on it.

Bush looked lost and confused at times, definately stumbled and stuttered alot more than I think is 'acceptable', and at a few moments was most definately unprofessional. I honestly felt embarased watching him at times.

I think Kerry came out on top, but I can't help but feel dread regardless of which one obtains the WH in Nov.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Hence, my advocacy for a "no confidence" option on the ballot, which if voted for by 60% or more of registered voters, forces both parties to go back and start all over again to bring us two fresh candidates. Stat.

Choosing from a lesser of evils is not a choice. A vote FOR a candidate should only be cast for a candidate worthy of voting FOR.

D.

 

[Kane]

In the first debate Kerry seemed to me the clear winner. However, I would have to give this second debate which I just saw to Bush. He did a lot better this time and brought up a lot of interesting points. Bush also didn't seem as nervous this time. One thing is for sure, Kerry is worthy opponent in a debate.

I am still undecided on who I think won on domestic issues.

 

[michaeledward]

I was a bit surprised by the 'Bush as small business' claim, and I loved the President's response. I then went to 'Factcheck.org'.

President Bush himself would have qualified as a "small business owner" under the Republican definition, based on his 2001 federal income tax returns. He reported $84 of business income from his part ownership of a timber-growing enterprise. However, 99.99% of Bush's total income came from other sources that year. (Bush also qualified as a "small business owner" in 2000 based on $314 of "business income," but not in 2002 and 2003 when he reported his timber income as "royalties" on a different tax schedule.) ​

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Incidentally, with 84 dollars in earnings, the President's Small Business would not see the taxes rise under John Kerry's plan to roll back the tax increases on wage earners with more than 200,000.00 dollars in income.​

 

[Tkang_TKD]

I was a bit surprised by the 'Bush as small business' claim, and I loved the President's response. I then went to 'Factcheck.org'.

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Incidentally, with 84 dollars in earnings, the President's Small Business would not see the taxes rise under John Kerry's plan to roll back the tax increases on wage earners with more than 200,000.00 dollars in income.​

Actually, I wonder if it would, considering the Total income for Pres. Bush would exceed 200,000. The tax stuff relating to small businesses is kinda confusing for me.

Now, on topic; I think that Pres. Bush did a much better job in this debate. I saw it as a much closer debate overall, and had Pres. Bush not had what I would call a "hissy fit" at one point interupting the moderator, I think he would have narrowly won. That gaff I think cost him the win.

Neither candidate presented a strong case in my opinion, although I thought both presented good counter arguments.

 

[michaeledward]

Actually, I wonder if it would, considering the Total income for Pres. Bush would exceed 200,000. The tax stuff relating to small businesses is kinda confusing for me.

Again, I am not a tax attorney, and I don't play one on TV, so take this with the appropriate caveats.

A) Seantor Kerry states he will roll back the Bush tax cuts on those making more than $200,000.00 per year.
B) President Bush (and Vice President Cheney) state that 900,000 small businesses pay taxes based on the personal income tax structure and will be subject to this change because they are structured as 'Sub-Chapter S' Corporations or 'Limited Partnerships'.
C) Kerry is arguing that President Bush can be counted as one of those 900,000 small businesses because of the way he listed the income from an outside source on his taxes (in the year 2001 & 2002 according to Factcheck.org).

Yes, because President Bush's salary as President is $400,000.00 per year, the 'other source' income would also be taxed at the highest rate, which would be higher under his plan. So, my earlier statement is a bit misleading, perhaps. Let's see if I can give a more relevant example.

Suppose I work as a civil servant in some capacity, say a school bus crossing guard. My income is $5.15 per hour (minimum wage), but for the sake of argument, I work 40 hours a week, 52 weeks a year; the math says my income is $10,712.00 for the year. (Ok, for this example, you can double that if you want, or even double that .. go ahead, its OK.)

To help make ends meet, I teach karate at the local YMCA two nights a week. Lets say I earn $60.00 per night from this endeavor. I earn an extra $6,240.00 per year as a martial arts instructor. I am able to structure this income under a personal business; (sub-chapter S, anyone).

In this instance, I would be counted as one of the Presidents 900,000 small businesses that they claim a President Kerry's tax plan would hurt. But, at these income levels, I would not be subject to additional taxes. Only if I started earning significantly more from either my 'real job' or my 'side job' would I be affected.

OK ... hope that helps ... end of class ... and always consult someone who knows what they are talking about before taking my advice

 

[Bob Hubbard]

I just liked his insistance that most small businesses were S-Corps.

Last I checked, sole-proprietorships and partnerships were the leading small business forms. Of course, a 'small' business is any business making less than $1million/yr I believe.

Could someone tell me what Bushes plan to stop the flow of tech jobs out of this country is again, because I missed it, and I for one don't feel like being a certified hamburger flipper. It's just not a good way to pick up intellegent chicks y'know.

 

[Phoenix44]

I agree that Bush did better in this debate, because he didn't stumble on his words quite as much (although he did invent a few words), and he controlled his facial expressions better. However, he still did nothing more than repeat the same old rehearsed phrases ("The world is safer now") and the same platitudes ("Tax cuts create jobs")--only louder.

Bush still takes no responsibility for our huge deficit fueled by his tax cuts for the rich, nor for the unemployment problem worsened by policies which encourage outsourcing. He admits no mistakes, so he definitely won't correct anything. He blamed frivoulous lawsuits for pretty much the entire healthcare problem even after it was pointed out that this accounts for only 1% of the costs. And he proposed no programs to address healthcare--"healthcare savings accounts" will only work for millionaires. Us regular folks can't possibly save enough--tax exempt or not--to pay for a heart attack or breast cancer.

His "safety concerns" about importing drugs was not credible. Merck's Singulair does not become dangerous when it travels from Vancouver to Seattle. And an even bigger issue is why it's cheaper in Canada in the first place--Merck's based in NJ. Bush had 4 years to fix this...he didn't. That's because the drug companies are among his biggest contributors, and not surprisingly, Bush's Sec'y of Health and Human Services has connections to Merck and Abbot Pharmaceuticals.

Kerry, once again, presented plans. He backed up the plans with facts and data. And more importantly, he demonstrated that the issues important to Americans are important to him. I like to hear plans.

I did not like the format of this debate, because it lends itself to grandstanding and performance. I don't like that. This is serious business, and I don't appreciate winks to the audience and solicitous quips.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

I did prefer the format of the VP debate myself.

 

[Flatlander]

Of low-cost drugs from Canada, the President said, "We want to make sure it cures you and doesn't kill you."

Canadian drugs "may be from the Third World," he said.

That's actually not even funny - does he actually think that Health Canada hasn't, you know, thought that perhaps we should have standards and safety mechanisms like every other developed nation?

Drugs imported into Canada to be sold to Canadians or for subsequent export must first be approved by Health Canada and meet the requirements of Canada's Food and Drugs Act and Regulations. Similarly, other countries, including the U.S., are responsible for ensuring compliance with their own laws.

 

[michaeledward]

That's actually not even funny - does he actually think that Health Canada hasn't, you know, thought that perhaps we should have standards and safety mechanisms like every other developed nation?

"does he actually think"? ... Ha ha Ha ha. I've been asking myself that question for 5 years. You know, when he hires a guy to determine who the best candidate for Vice President might be, and then ends up selected the guy who is supposed to vett the other people .... "does he actually think" ... oh, that's a good one Flatlander.... te he he he .....

The one thing I am certain President Bush knows about Health Canada ... is that they don't get to vote for him ... so he doesn't need to worry about pissing on you ... Same thing he did to all those allies .

"does he actually think" ... :rofl:

 

[Xequat]

Cheap shot. I mean, I shouldn't really care, because I don't know the guy, but Bush did get better grades than Kerry did...at an Ivy League school, so obviously he does think. I know that sounds a little defensive, but I'm tired of people taking the fact the Bush can't speak for crap and turning into a lie or opinion that he's some kind of idiot. Please keep to the topic, although your timing was kind of funny, Mike.

 

[michaeledward]

Cheap shot. I mean, I shouldn't really care, because I don't know the guy, but Bush did get better grades than Kerry did...at an Ivy League school, so obviously he does think. I know that sounds a little defensive, but I'm tired of people taking the fact the Bush can't speak for crap and turning into a lie or opinion that he's some kind of idiot. Please keep to the topic, although your timing was kind of funny, Mike.

It was on topic. In order to vote in the United States general election, one of the criteria is that you are a 'United States Citizen'.

The President knows that the approximately 32 million Canadians are not allowed to vote for him, or against him. He, therefore, can make accusations about their Universal Health Care system that are not true without recourse.

He said that Canadian drugs may kill you. Please. You don't think he actually believes that, do you? It was rhetorical garbage.

The relationship between the United States and Canada is quite possibly the most important bi-lateral relationship on the planet, and far too often, United States citizens ignore that. I expect more from my President.

 

[Xequat]

Ah, OK. I see what you're saying. I was focused on the "he doesn't think" thing. You're right, though. it was mostly on topic. I was just trying to answer the question you've been asking yourself for five years. The answer is yes.

 

[rmcrobertson]

Hate to tell ya this, but the questions, the questioners, the self-control by the audience, made me proud of living in a democracy.

Our President behaved badly, and spoke stupidly, but that's what I've come to expect of the man.

I prefer to focus on the audience.

 

[michaeledward]

Hate to tell ya this, but the questions, the questioners, the self-control by the audience, made me proud of living in a democracy.

I agree. I think we also need to acknowledge Charles Gibson. I have no idea how this guy got to be a moderator. I don't think he merits it. However, he had more than 200 questions to review and select. And he did a wonderful, wonderful job.

I was a bit bothered by the 'Pro-Life' tone of the Stem Cell reseach question and the Tax dollars supporting abortion question, Missouri is quite a bit more on that side of the discussion than here in the Northeast. But, it also gave Kerry a chance to show that he is a thoughtful and respectful candidate and human being.

Anyhow, I bet there were many questions that were much more clumsy than those selected by Gibson. So, Kudos to him.

Mike

 

[pete]

I was a bit bothered by the 'Pro-Life' tone of the Stem Cell reseach question and the Tax dollars supporting abortion question, Missouri is quite a bit more on that side of the discussion than here in the Northeast.

michael, why were you bothered? was it because a citizen, and a female mind you, has different view on this issue from yours? there is good reason this issue has not been resolved politically, and comes up for debate in more years than i care to remember... people have strong and justifiable rationale for both ends of the debate.

kerry did his best impression yet of mario cuomo, and i feel lost ground on that... as opposed to bush, who stood by his convictions (or perhaps those of his supporters)...

pete