1 Question about Kusanku

[TSDTexan]

An able bodied 90 year old.

 

[TimoS]

There exists a period from 1880 to 1901 where Chotoku could have learned it.

Not really, because that was the time Kyan Chotoku was in Japan with his father. When he came back (can't remember the year off-hand), Matsumura had already passed away.

 

[TSDTexan]

Not really, because that was the time Kyan Chotoku was in Japan with his father. When he came back (can't remember the year off-hand), Matsumura had already passed away.

The plot thickens.

 

[TSDTexan]

That he never existed is a stretch...
Well, he is well documented. He was awarded title "Satunushi" (two major classes below direct royal blood)
Pechin

• Pekumi : Official

• Satunushi Pechin : Middle Official

• Chikudun Pechin : Lower Official

by King Sho Tai. This is in the Sho Court documents.

His patrilinal linege is also recorded. He was trained by a noble. And at the end of his life he trained a noble.

There is enough evidence on paper to say he existed.

At least that’s what Sakugawa’s family in Okinawa claims, and who knows best if not them? The guy produced biological offspring who continued his name.

They also say... historical books that say He died in China are in error. He died with his family in Okinawa.

I haven't been into their family library to look at the records, but okinawa is pretty small and trying to pretend to be blood decendants of someone like that would get outted pretty quick.

Here is an interview with a blood family decendant.
FightingArts.com - Interview With Hohan Soken: The Last Of The Great Old Time Karate Warriors ? Part 1

 

[TSDTexan]

Not really, because that was the time Kyan Chotoku was in Japan with his father. When he came back (can't remember the year off-hand), Matsumura had already passed away.

King Tai was deposed with the foundation of Ryukyu Han. In 1879 he was removed to Japan and kept there for five years. He took with him over 90 retainers. Chofu Kyan went with the king and took with him his young son, Chotoku.

Chofu Kyan, a cultivated man with knowledge of both Chinese and Japanese literature, had been opposed to Japan's takeover of Okinawa. Hoshu Ikeda has in his possession a petition against the Japanese measures, and one of the seven signatories is Kyan. He was a traditionalist who did not want the old ways to die out, and it seems that it was he who kindled Chotoku Kyan's enthusiasm for karate.

According to Gichin Funakoshi in Karate-do Nyumon, Chofu Kyan himself had some knowledge of te, but although he trained his young son in wrestling (probably Okinawan sumo) to toughen him up, he entrusted the teaching of karate forms to others. Shoshin Nagamine believes that this was because he was too fond of Chotoku to train him the correct, severe way.

Anyway, at age 20, Chotoku Kyan was put under the tutelage of famous experts: Kokan Oyadomari, Kosaku Matsumora, and Ankoh Itosu.

They returned to Okinawa in 1884. And no.. Sokon Bushi was not dead. He wouldn't die for seven more years.

I am trying to run down a lead. Apparently Kyan in an interview said that he learned this kata from Sokon Sensei and praticed it everyday exactly as directed.

 

[TSDTexan]

Graham Noble (Karate researcher) agrees with you that he learned Kusanku from Yara but then says he learned "Seisan" and "Gojushio" from Sokon Bushi Matsumura.

Here is his quote:
Kyan concentrated his teaching on seven (or perhaps eight) kata. These kata and the teachers from whom he learned them (it is believed) are as follows:
'Annanko' an un-named Taiwanese.
'Wanshu' Saneida (Maeda).
'Chinto' Kosaku Matsumora.
'Passai' Kokan Oyadomari.
'Kushanku' Chatan Yara.
'Seisan' Sokon Matsumura.
'Gojushiho' Sokon Matsumura.

 

[TSDTexan]

Just found out in an Email from a friend. Chofu Kyan was hand trained by Matsumura when Bushi was in charge of training King Sho Tai's bodyguards.

The Kyan Matsumura families had been close for a long time.
Chofu asked a favor of Sokon to train his son Chotoku.

 

[TimoS]

Anyway, at age 20, Chotoku Kyan was put under the tutelage of famous experts: Kokan Oyadomari, Kosaku Matsumora, and Ankoh Itosu.

Kyan didn't study with Itosu. That has been disproven by most of Kyan's students AND Chosin Chibana. The only source for the claim is in Shoshin Nagamine's book. Also, if Kyan was Itosu's student, why didn't he teach any of Itosu's kata? The kata that are common in name in both Shorin branches are totally different. Kyan didn't teach Pinan, he didn't have dai and sho versions of the kata

 

[TSDTexan]

Kyan didn't study with Itosu. That has been disproven by most of Kyan's students AND Chosin Chibana. The only source for the claim is in Shoshin Nagamine's book. Also, if Kyan was Itosu's student, why didn't he teach any of Itosu's kata? The kata that are common in name in both Shorin branches are totally different. Kyan didn't teach Pinan, he didn't have dai and sho versions of the kata

You raise good questions but Kyan overhauled most of the kata especially towards his later years. Which is why his kata is markedly different.
Dumping anything linear for more circular movements.

Which goes to show just how strongly Kyan embraced the ShuHaRi ethos.

As for why Itosu did or didn't teach him kata... We dont know that he didn't.

We only know that he didn't pass on any itosu kata if he did learn any.

Primarily because he had chosen a carefully constructed syllabus of his kata, and saw no need for inclusion or other Itosu kata.

'Annanko'
'Wanshu'
'Chinto'
'Passai'
'Kushanku'
'Seisan'
'Gojushiho'
This is an enormous amount of kata in a time when most masters knew 2-3 kata at an amazing amount of depth.

Ultimately it doesn't matter if Itosu didn't teach him...he might or he might not have.. I am willing to say that it may be wrong.
But this is a side issue to the earlier point.

Matsumura Sokon definitely did teach him.
Word is that his Father and Grandfather started his karate training at age 5.

They taught him Matsumura no Kusanku.
When Matsumura began training Kyan, it was superfluous to teach him this kata other then a few tweaks.

Yara taught him a variation of the kata, that Yara had modified. Kyan kept to this version, before his own modification.

 

[TSDTexan]

Much of this is sourced from Dan Smith, Hanshi.

 

[TimoS]

Much of this is sourced from Dan Smith, Hanshi.

I am familiar with him, having met him twice in Okinawa at the Seibukan Honbu dojo, but that aside, you are simply wrong. Kyan was not Itosu's student, as has been confirmed by Chosin Chibana, Itosu's main student and all but one of Kyan's students.

Dumping anything linear for more circular movements.

Huh?

Matsumura Sokon definitely did teach him.

He did, Seisan and Gojushiho

They taught him Matsumura no Kusanku.

No they didn't. I'll try to find the book on Kyan I bought some years ago

 

[TimoS]

Here's a list of Kyan's kata and who he learned them from

Seibukan lineage - Burnside Karate

As you can see, Itosu is not mentioned there.

 

[TimoS]

Didn't find the book I was looking for yet, but here's something from another book

They returned to Okinawa in 1884. And no.. Sokon Bushi was not dead. He wouldn't die for seven more years.

Here's part of a book called Shorin ryu Seibukan - Kyan's karate, by Zenpo Shimabukuro (and Dan Smith)

Sokon Matsumura passed away at the age of eighty-eight, five years after Kyan moved to Tokyo. Kyan regretted that he was not able to be with him at the time of death as Matsumura often talked about to Kyan about loayalty and devotion. Matsumura's teaching and his training at an advanced age had a lasting effect of Kyan as he often spoke of the importance of loyalty and devotion to training".

The book puts Matsumura's year of death as 1890 and Kyan returning in 1896.

 

[TSDTexan]

I am familiar with him, having met him twice in Okinawa at the Seibukan Honbu dojo, but that aside, you are simply wrong. Kyan was not Itosu's student, as has been confirmed by Chosin Chibana, Itosu's main student and all but one of Kyan's students.

Huh?

He did, Seisan and Gojushiho

No they didn't. I'll try to find the book on Kyan I bought some years ago

Researcher Andreas Quast has this

Now Nagamine wrote is his book that his own master trained under Itosu. What I hear is squabling students of Kyan.
Again, it could easily be as simple as Kyan sharing a srcret with Nagamine that he never disclosed to any other students.

 

[TSDTexan]

Didn't find the book I was looking for yet, but here's something from another book

Here's part of a book called Shorin ryu Seibukan - Kyan's karate, by Zenpo Shimabukuro (and Dan Smith)

The book puts Matsumura's year of death as 1890 and Kyan returning in 1896.

I have one source that has Matsumura beginning to train Kyan at age 8. Richard Kim:

According to Richard Kim, Matsumura put the sickly little boy through the type of training that would have done justice to a Zen temple.

From the age of eight onward, little Kyan suffered through private lessons with all of the most accomplished martial artists of Shuri and Tomari. He learned every kata and every weapon from at least a dozen sensei, who must often have contradicted and undermined each other.

Kyan had been training for 11 or 12 years by the time his father died in 1889.

By the time Kyan was about 19 years old, he had become the most grimly over-trained (but healthy) youth in karate history. He also seems to have developed a teenager’s rebellious anger toward his tormentors.

The Kyan stories convey a sense of backlash against his father and the Shuri masters. Most martial artists show a life-long loyalty to their principal teachers (giri), but this doesn't seem to be the case with Kyan. He spent his life changing the Shuri kata in various ways, although not always constructively.

It may be that Kyan saw no advantage to linear technique, so he discarded it and reverted to vital-point technique instead. Kyans unique contribution was that he combined Chinas vital-point strikes with Shuri’s ruthless philosophy of ikken hisatsu. One strike, sudden death.

He went for the eves and throat first, which a Shaolin monk would never have done.

Late in his life, Kyan apparently abandoned Shuri-te completely and taught only pre-Matsumura kata and techniques. That tells us quite a lot about his attitude toward Shuri-te and the Shuri masters. In the end, he completely turned his back on them.

But the age (88) at death is disputed.
1809. The last date of birth, given by Shoshin Nagamine in his book "Okinawa-no Karate-do" is probably the correct one.

As Nagamine explains: "In Japan, when a man reaches the age of 88, a special ceremony is held to celebrate this lucky and special age. We know from records which still exist that a woman took her child to Matsumura Sensei for a "lucky embrace" on the occasion of the celebration of his 88th birthday.

This "Lucky Embrace" was in 1896 so we can say that he was born in 1809.

He lived for some years beyond his 88th birthday but we have no accurate date for his death." There is a tradition that Matsumura lived to 92 years of age so that would just take him into this century.

Nagamine knew of him in those post 88 years.
"After being caretaker of Uchaya Udun, Shuri Bushi Matsumura became Shikina garden's caretaker." From page 35 in Nakamoto Masahiro book Okinawa Kobudo.

In Andreas Quast book Karate 1.0 at page 325-327 there is a very interesting part called: Yoshimura Chogi's Martial art. Around 1884 Yoshimura started training with Matsumura Sokon in Shikinaen. "We served together as royal guards at the Southern Park (Shikinaen). I mainly trained Useishi (i.e. Gojushiho), as well as Kusanku." Yoshimura also learned Jigen ryu, training with Bokuto, from Bushi Matsumura.

 

[TSDTexan]

Sokon Matsumura Memorial Site, Okinawa

The inscription on the memorial reads:

HERE LIES MASTER SOKON MATSUMURA (1809 – 1899)

The originator of Okinawan Karate and Shurite.

He was born in Yamagawa, Shuri.

His Chinese name was Seitatsu Bu.

He called himself Unyu, or Takenaga.

He was excellent in martial arts from childhood, and won a worldwide reputation of a great master. He was remarkable for both wisdom and valor, devoting himself to the spirit that both literary and martial arts are one.

He served three reigns as a personal guard of the Royal descendants of King Shoen; the seventeenth, King Shoko; the eighteenth, King Shoiku and the nineteenth King Shotai.

 

[TimoS]

Again, it could easily be as simple as Kyan sharing a srcret with Nagamine that he never disclosed to any other students.

You are really grasping at straws here. Considering that Nagamine was with Kyan only a little while, with Zenryo (and Tatsuo) Shimabukuro being there much longer, who do you think he would really confide in? How about the fact that Chosin Chibana, who really was the "heir" to Itosu's karate, said that Kyan didn't study with Itosu?

It may be that Kyan saw no advantage to linear technique, so he discarded it and reverted to vital-point technique instead

Nonsense. Zenryo Shimabukuro's karate is the karate that Kyan taught late in his life and it is very straight-forward, nothing really circular about it. Trust me on that one, I'm practising that style.

He went for the eves and throat first, which a Shaolin monk would never have done.

Debatable, at best.

Late in his life, Kyan apparently abandoned Shuri-te completely and taught only pre-Matsumura kata and techniques. That tells us quite a lot about his attitude toward Shuri-te and the Shuri masters. In the end, he completely turned his back on them.

Rubbish. Kyan taught Seisan, Ananku (which, by the way, was his own creation, not something taught to him by some mysterious Taiwanese master), Wansu, Passai, Gojushiho, Chinto, Kusanku and Tokumine no kun to Zenryo Shimabukuro and Zenryo sensei remained with Kyan until Kyan died soon after WW2. If that quote was accurate, he wouldn't have taught Zenryo sensei much anything, because before Matsumura (and his student Azato) he only studied with his father and maybe with his grandfather and since his father was Matsumura's student, he would have been taught Matsumura's karate.

 

[TSDTexan]

Well, itosu is a side issue. That much I will admit.
If I am wrong about that point it changes nothing about the main issue.
Yara no Kusanku
And Matsumura no Kusanku and if He knew both or just YnK.

I am inclined to agree that he created Ananku, after his time abroad, but again we cannot prove he didn't learn and modify a Chinese form to create it from an obscure and now extint art.

At least you've reconsidered your position on Matsumura being dead and gone by the time of Kyan's return from Japan.

 

[TimoS]

I stand by what I said earlier on that one: Kyan learned it from Yara. In Zenpo sensei's book there is speculation that he might have learned a version of Kusanku from Matsumora, but that is speculation and besides, Matsumura and Matsumora are two totally different persons

 

[clfsean]

He went for the eves and throat first, which a Shaolin monk would never have done.

Remember ... there were two classes of monks ... scholarly/theological & warrior/lay person. Most of the 2nd class were fighters before taking orders & took that path to stay in the secular world. They taught the lay people like Hung Hei Goon (founder of Hung Ga), Li Yau San (founder of Li Ga), etc... They were also the main force responsible for providing protection to the temple & its nearby villages/neighbors & were the ones to to most of the travel based work, like the pirates on the coast event. Not to say there weren't the other monks with them, leading/guiding/advising and even fighting, but there were two independent classes & they're not exactly the same.

One of the two martial arts I practice is Shaolin based. We have specialized strikes for the eyes & throat to make sure we get the strike on target. Straight away as well, not a "last resort" technique. Instead they're something a little more offensive - sudden, brutal & final.